What Spin is this serve?

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Dario does about 5 serves here. 3 pendulum, and 2 reverse pendulum.

Are these sidespin, side-under, or side-top? I always have problems specifically with this type of motion. They say "look at the moment he strikes the ball". But its way too fast and I can't read it.
 
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Dario does about 5 serves here. 3 pendulum, and 2 reverse pendulum.

Are these sidespin, side-under, or side-top? I always have problems specifically with this type of motion. They say "look at the moment he strikes the ball". But its way too fast and I can't read it.
First 3 are clearly topspins, last one pretty clear backspin, the 4th one is a bit vague, it's mostly side with probably some topspin. The 4th serve I'd treat it as side top and probably would have to receive it a few times in games to find out exactly how much top is on it.
 
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First 3 are clearly topspins, last one pretty clear backspin, the 4th one is a bit vague, it's mostly side with probably some topspin. The 4th serve I'd treat it as side top and probably would have to receive it a few times in games to find out exactly how much top is on it.
I could totally just see myself going in to push his serve and pop it up high.
 
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I could totally just see myself going in to push his serve and pop it up high.
Are you able to execute these serves? The top side pendulum and rev pendulum I mean.
If you can do them well then they are much easier to recognise.
I struggle with identifying rev pen sometimes but I also struggle to execute it, it's something I'm working hard on.
Pendulum with top side, back side etc, no such issues.

What serves do you use in a match, typically?

I would recommend recording your service practice and watching it back. It is incredibly revealing and will help a lot!
 
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Are you able to execute these serves? The top side pendulum and rev pendulum I mean.
If you can do them well then they are much easier to recognise.
I struggle with identifying rev pen sometimes but I also struggle to execute it, it's something I'm working hard on.
Pendulum with top side, back side etc, no such issues.

What serves do you use in a match, typically?

I would recommend recording your service practice and watching it back. It is incredibly revealing and will help a lot!
I cant do reverse pendulum at all.

I can do pendulum serve, but mine are easy to read. Dario has a quick smooth motion.

In match, I pretty much just use under, side-under, or dead ball. Pretty much 3 serves and thats it.
 
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Here's a few more. He labels the spin here...but the motion all looks the same to me. Especially the reverse pendulum top vs under look the same

It should be a little easier to see in person, for backspin the racket is moving forward and a bit down and the contact is usually near the top of the racket. For topspin the racket is moving sideways and a bit up and contact is nearer the handle.

One thing I've found helpful is to look at what happens during racket acceleration. In order to create good spin you need to approach the ball relatively slowly and then accelerate as you're about to contact the ball. The reason this is helpful is if you're trying to pay attention to the contact, you have to pay attention to both the ball and the racket. But when you focus on racket acceleration, you only need to pay attention to the racket, making it easier to catch the exact moment of contact.
 
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Any other good videos that focus on this issue? I want to see like 50 examples of side-top and side-under like Dario is showing here.

Videos aren't going to help you. You have to develop the feel from playing as much as possible. I'm also not a fan of people who say "Just look at the contact point." Good players can disguise their serves, some cheat and hide the contact point, etc. Players had to read spin without seeing what the server was doing for years, so it's clearly not impossible. When someone serves to me, I have to think about

1) What path does the ball take? Is it traveling left to right? Straight?
2) How fast is the ball traveling? Is it accelerating or decelerating?
3) How did the ball bounce? Does it kick? Does it float?

Stop watching what the other person is doing. Don't think about it at all. The body can lie, but the ball can't.
 
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Videos aren't going to help you. You have to develop the feel from playing as much as possible. I'm also not a fan of people who say "Just look at the contact point." Good players can disguise their serves, some cheat and hide the contact point, etc. Players had to read spin without seeing what the server was doing for years, so it's clearly not impossible. When someone serves to me, I have to think about

1) What path does the ball take? Is it traveling left to right? Straight?
2) How fast is the ball traveling? Is it accelerating or decelerating?
3) How did the ball bounce? Does it kick? Does it float?

Stop watching what the other person is doing. Don't think about it at all. The body can lie, but the ball can't.
But how can you decide all that in a split second?
 
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But how can you decide all that in a split second?
Ichiro Ogimura once said that playing table tennis was like playing bridge while running the 100m. This is one of the most technically challenging sports there is. This is why you *must* play as much as possible and surround yourself with other good players or ideally a great coach.
 
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Videos aren't going to help you. You have to develop the feel from playing as much as possible. I'm also not a fan of people who say "Just look at the contact point." Good players can disguise their serves, some cheat and hide the contact point, etc. Players had to read spin without seeing what the server was doing for years, so it's clearly not impossible. When someone serves to me, I have to think about

1) What path does the ball take? Is it traveling left to right? Straight?
2) How fast is the ball traveling? Is it accelerating or decelerating?
3) How did the ball bounce? Does it kick? Does it float?

Stop watching what the other person is doing. Don't think about it at all. The body can lie, but the ball can't.
That's the last resort though. If you don't make a decision re: your receive before the 2nd bounce then it's unlikely to be very high quality.
 
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That's the last resort though. If you don't make a decision re: your receive before the 2nd bounce then it's unlikely to be very high quality.
This method also doesn’t work against fast long serves
 
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Tbh these serves arent that hard to read because he isnt making increased efforts to disguise the followthrough which gives a lot of information to his opponent.

If he relies on changing the racket angle, this is usually the easiest to see - just focus hard on the contact point - open angle = backspin, more perpendicular = sidespin or topspin.

If the racket angle is the same (advanced serves), you have to rely on detecting the force direction and this is where it gets really tricky because if the serve movement is fast, you dont really know whether they contacted during the downswing or the upswing phase. Most pro serves are like that, which is why they look pretty much identical (sidetop vs sideunder). They also use tricks to make the ball trajectory very similar - serving sideunderspin faster and sidetopspin floatier. Extremely nasty.

For these serves, one thing I found out is the height of contact, this doesnt lie. For backspin serves, it has to be contacted relatively higher in order to brush it downwards. If it is contacted too low then it wont make the net. For topspin serves it has to be contacted relatively lower in order to brush it sideways or even upwards, otherwise the trajectory will be too high.
With this method I can even tell Par Gerell's hook serves from video. But you still need to have eagle eyes, it is only a subtle difference.

For my serves, you pretty much dont see the racket during the serve backswing, and also during the followthrough (I pull my racket back immediately after contact towards my body). You can see the ball the whole way through sure and the racket contact point, but you wont see a lot more than that. Technically still legal but a lot of ppl complain - i point out to them it is not illegal to hide the bat, only hiding the ball is illegal.
 
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Watch this:


From the front it looks almost exactly the same between sidetop and sideunder! Blade angle is the same, trajectory and speed are almost the same.

But you can see he contacts the sideunderspin serve slightly higher than the sidetopspin serve, and this is imo an important point to note.
 
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