Please notice that all those high level players (and the 20-30 after them too) just choose rubbers for themselves. Hybrids are just not what they choose in accordance to their playstyles.
I can imagine - the fact that people are still using Tenergy more than Dignics speaks for itself. I find that most people who use Dignics will feel a need for carbon. Just goes with the territory.
Since you did not do a controlled test you will never know if your own conclusion is actually the correct one. You put it down to lack of competitive mindsets, but it might as well them getting disillusioned because whatever they tried and trained they never got into the consistency with landing the ball that they would need to have a good go at becoming a better player or the player they wanted to be.
This is really a question of how you define getting "really good". For the average joe on this forum i think having 1700 TTR (in germany) would be better than what they are right now and judging by the first team of my club these players around that rating do play all wood (some even defensive blades) without being defenders, but pretty much alround players who basically have a good technique and are able to perform any technique reliably. The ones from that team that actually do play more aggressive use carbon blades and what should i say ? They "brute force" way of trying to overpower these alround players is just not consistent enough to trouble them really (even though they got a similar rating).
There were some that were told that rhey had started with equipment that was too fast and they should use something slower. They often didn't like it. But what I never did because they never seriously competed was get into aerve return training, which is usually where lots of interesting things really start. But there is a tradeoff between hitting rhe ball faster and being consistent that everyone experiences. Sometimes people act like the tradeoff acts only one way. But it is more complicated than that. Ultimate you use waht keeps you playing.
Agreed to this with all its TT nuances, but as long as one is aware of the tradeoffs it works, problem being when people are not.
This is essentially the same as @Der_Echte says and I agree too
This is the exact target audience of my post, which accounts for a lot of the TT players out there. I wonder what's the % from the total players.
This is great, is it normal in Italy to have this? In NL I don't see this as a normal pattern, some clubs really care about training, others don't at all.
And this is also very true, there are some players in our club with body limitations, for them, equipment is more a way to help them play as good as they can, nothing else, and recommendations do not follow normal rules there.
I think being happier is different per person. Some people in our club are happy they can come to the club and hit a couple good balls, that's happiness for them. Others get happier if they learn something they could never do before, and are happy when they can do them in matches too, that's also what you'd say playing better. Others look into the ratings/tournaments and use that as the measure. I think, playing better is not only better results or better technique but doing more of what the player wants to do if it makes sense for the player. That's also where happiness usually comes from.
That's true, but it leaves open a lot of things to subjectivity. But as @jk1980 pointed out, lack of rigor affects everyone's argument. Maybe with Spinsight, over time, data will inform more of these choices.
Same in my case, most of the times people had a wrong setup before and then a wrong setup now too as they changed without really understanding where they came from or went to. Otherwise, like @Matteones mentions, if I see equipment is fine-ish, I would not say anything and just let them focus on technique and getting better in peace.
Yep same, plus for people who don't play in competitions, tecnique, footwork, tacticts is what determines better. Plus own happiness ofc.
Let me explain our club structure here too, maybe that helps the discussion.
From the lowest national levels the same pattern applies, the older generation uses normal tensor rubbers, nothing fancy, the young ones come with the heavy stuff In total we have about 10 national men and 6 national women. Women's game is lower in level, and rubbers/blades there are normally intermediate things. Some rubbers I see (and have pasted) often from all these players that are not young ones: Fastarc G-1, Gewo El Pro 48, Razka 7, Stiga Platinum, Stiga Mantra, Tibhar Nimbus, Xiom Vega X/Pro. For blades, a mix of all things, outer, inner, all wood. For sure Viscaria is not the most used blade, in fact, almost nobody uses it or has used it. Blades that are common: Timo Boll ALC (yes outer but more controlled than other outers), Innerforce ALC for example. Funny how people do TB ALC which is the same as viscaria (wood wise), but no viscaria, I wonder why.
This is interesting @NextLevel , do you feel like in other continents is more freeform or more varied opinions? Or is it perhaps some countries in Europe? I see a lot more pips in Spain for example than in the Netherlands in comparison.
Yeah true, for ranking, most objective is ranking and/or tournament performance aside from technical/tactical improvements weekly. For happiness I think we can be a bit more freeform there
I am just surprised that there is so little Dignics and hybrid/sticky rubbers. Dignics and Hybrid/sticky rubbers broadly is part of what drives the need for carbon. While it is possible to use Dignics 05 on all wood, it's a very different when you use it something that sends the ball forward. But seeing all the old tensor technology and Tenergy, I can see why one would not do well with carbon. Though I think even with G1, one is entering a space where carbon can be pretty helpful.This is interesting @NextLevel , do you feel like in other continents is more freeform or more varied opinions? Or is it perhaps some countries in Europe? I see a lot more pips in Spain for example than in the Netherlands in comparison.
Yeah true, for ranking, most objective is ranking and/or tournament performance aside from technical/tactical improvements weekly. For happiness I think we can be a bit more freeform there
This is the same as in the netherlands often, which results in what you mention @jk1980 . For me, true coaching must be 1 to 1 or a very reduced group so they can focus on you personally for a longer period of time. As as example that this even happens in 'pro' training places, when I went to the borussia dusseldorf (andro TT schule) center, many people didn't take the 1 to 1 coaching lessons and when i spoke to some of them, they said, well, it was just a bit better than at home with some personal tips and tricks, but mostly just training 4 days in a row with similar things we do at home. Yes, there was a bit more personalised coaching but results happen when you do 1 to 1, multiball and repeatedly.
This was all a very good read @IB66 , specially the part that if you only had fast stuff, people would still learn, some faster, some slower. But as a 'generic' rule of thumb, it is indeed easier to start slow and then upgrade as you grow. The problem is that generic might not apply to everybody. Kids are different, coaching or no coaching, talent or no talent, etc. Maybe the title of the post should be why some amateurs (given conditions xyz) should avoid fast gear, but yeah, then the title would not fit in the box hahaha
When points are at stake and you got to receive a tricky serve, things break indeed
And also the tradeoff part, very true. You know what's funny, yesterday I was at the club with my good friend andy from china. He has been playing his whole life and is now at the lowest national level approx. He played 30 years with the butterfly taksim, unboosted H3 and long pips on penhold, is 50y old and a condition beast, mostly a FH looper and rest block and placement. Anyways, his frame broke last week on a tournament (emotional damage was settling in still) and yesterday there he was with a Viscaria Super ALC + Dignics 09c FH. He said it felt very different than his gear before, we had a good laugh together.
It depends on a lor of things. The truth is that sometimes, what you get used to is what you adapt to and breaking off it can be hard. It is also possible and just as easy to start fast and go slower, or all the equipment experts here are advocating by recommending corrective actions. One of the things that isn't accounted for is how often a player can feel TT requires too much effort and then when introduced to faster equipment, plays much bette and enjoys the fame more. This is not just true for lower rated players by the way. Stellan Bengston gave Kou Lei as an example of a player whose game took off when he started using European/Japanese rubbers on both sides. In reality, the bias towards the wisdom derived from the cell ball is so pervasive that rather than encourage range training, the default is to put itbdown to equipment being too fast before range training has been attempted. To be fair equipment is easier to change. But as you point out with the girl (and there are many people suffering in silence as well because most equipment choices are relatively arbitrary), there are many people who would learn in a more relaxed fashion and with a focus on spin by being coached with faster equipment. A lot comes down to how you wanr to build the player in the first place.
I am Italian but I live in Madrid, Spain, and I think we are the biggest club (in terms of numbers of players) in Spain, I wouldn't say it's normal, even if I'm quite sure all the medium-big clubs in the region have at least one coach.Agreed to this with all its TT nuances, but as long as one is aware of the tradeoffs it works, problem being when people are not.
This is essentially the same as @Der_Echte says and I agree too
This is the exact target audience of my post, which accounts for a lot of the TT players out there. I wonder what's the % from the total players.
This is great, is it normal in Italy to have this? In NL I don't see this as a normal pattern, some clubs really care about training, others don't at all.
And this is also very true, there are some players in our club with body limitations, for them, equipment is more a way to help them play as good as they can, nothing else, and recommendations do not follow normal rules there.
I suspect a large part of this is due to the traditional Dutch mentality (both the lack of pips and high end gear).
Would you laugh similarly if an old woman learning to drive took a Porsche out? A Lexus?
