WTT Champions Macao 2024, 9/9-15

[NextLevel]

These narratives about 16-year old Miwa sound a lot like what they said about 14-15 year old Tomo when he started breaking out with the wins over top CNT players. Tomo's inconsistency issues didn't actually really develop until he started making significant changes with his playstyle and body composition, I think somewhere early in the COVID period.

SYS at the same age was clearly stronger than current Miwa.

There were always inconsistency issues because of his forehand, he had losses to players that did not always make sense given his ranking. Let's remember he lost to An Jaehyun in 2019 WTTC. And even before that, he had struggles against players like Pitchford and Calderano in the teams tournament in 2018 if I remember correctly. His forehand and footwork were always a work in progress and left aspects of his game exploitable if you had the right skillset.

Miwa comes across as better developed and not having the same major technical loopholes. Of course there are some given limited experience, so the path to completeness might be longer. And no, Sun Yingsha didn't have a better backhand at the same age for sure, so I wouldn't say she was *clearly* stronger.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

There were always inconsistency issues because of his forehand, he had losses to players that did not always make sense given his ranking. Let's remember he lost to An Jaehyun in 2019 WTTC. And even before that, he had struggles against players like Pitchford and Calderano in the teams tournament in 2018 if I remember correctly. His forehand and footwork were always a work in progress and left aspects of his game exploitable if you had the right skillset.

Miwa comes across as better developed and not having the same major technical loopholes. Of course there are some given limited experience, so the path to completeness might be longer. And no, Sun Yingsha didn't have a better backhand at the same age for sure, so I wouldn't say she was *clearly* stronger.

I'm referring to the quoted post that is referring to her physical strength.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

There were always inconsistency issues because of his forehand, he had losses to players that did not always make sense given his ranking. Let's remember he lost to An Jaehyun in 2019 WTTC. And even before that, he had struggles against players like Pitchford and Calderano in the teams tournament in 2018 if I remember correctly. His forehand and footwork were always a work in progress and left aspects of his game exploitable if you had the right skillset.

Miwa comes across as better developed and not having the same major technical loopholes. Of course there are some given limited experience, so the path to completeness might be longer. And no, Sun Yingsha didn't have a better backhand at the same age for sure, so I wouldn't say she was *clearly* stronger.

An Jaehyun played the tournament of his life that time, but yes, he did exploit TH's weak forehand and footwork at the time. I don't remember the exact timeline either and I guess it is subjective to say when TH became more inconsistent but to my memory which could definitely be wrong it started more around 2021 to 2022.

In fairness if we are going to mention TH losing to An, Pitchford, and Calderano when he was still 14-15 I suppose we should also mention Miwa losing to Natalia Bajor and Pauline Chasselin at that age - but we will see if more experience and time in the gym leads to Miwa becoming WR1 next year or if she is another Japanese early peaker.

 

[NextLevel]

An Jaehyun played the tournament of his life that time, but yes, he did exploit TH's weak forehand and footwork at the time. I don't remember the exact timeline either and I guess it is subjective to say when TH became more inconsistent but to my memory which could definitely be wrong it started more around 2021 to 2022.

In fairness if we are going to mention TH losing to An, Pitchford, and Calderano when he was still 14-15 I suppose we should also mention Miwa losing to Natalia Bajor and Pauline Chasselin at that age - but we will see if more experience and time in the gym leads to Miwa becoming WR1 next year or if she is another Japanese early peaker.

My point is that Chinese always felt that Harimoto was limited even when he played against them because he had technical issues - he often had issues even with weaker players before then.

While Miwa lost to Bajor and Chasselin (in close matches for the record), one doesn't get the same feeling of technical gaps. Some of those losses that Tomokazu had to the likes of WCT or Pitchford or Calderano were 0-3 losses. And then there were time he would play in Japan and lose to peers with his style limitations. With Miwa, you don't get the same sense of weakness.

I think what Takkyu (and others giving Miwa 2 years) are underestimating is the depth of the Chinese analytics machine. They look for every edge and weakness and at the very top, Miwa will have to defeat both Wang Manyu and Sun Yingsha so she would have to be a level above (because the Miwa specific training those two will get will be beyond anything Miwa can imagine). But that said, Takkyu's position is as reasonable as any. But again, I don't get the same sense of technical limitation watching Miwa that I do watching Tomo.

 

[latej]

Think about where your TT skills would be if those damn Hungarians didn't stop the mongol hordes!

@Zwill, looking at you!!!

 

[ThePongCommenter]

My point is that Chinese always felt that Harimoto was limited even when he played against them because he had technical issues - he often had issues even with weaker players before then.

While Miwa lost to Bajor and Chasselin (in close matches for the record), one doesn't get the same feeling of technical gaps. Some of those losses that Tomokazu had to the likes of WCT or Pitchford or Calderano were 0-3 losses. And then there were time he would play in Japan and lose to peers with his style limitations. With Miwa, you don't get the same sense of weakness.

I think what Takkyu (and others giving Miwa 2 years) are underestimating is the depth of the Chinese analytics machine. They look for every edge and weakness and at the very top, Miwa will have to defeat both Wang Manyu and Sun Yingsha so she would have to be a level above (because the Miwa specific training those two will get will be beyond anything Miwa can imagine). But that said, Takkyu's position is as reasonable as any. But again, I don't get the same sense of technical limitation watching Miwa that I do watching Tomo.

Fair points

 

[rpb23]

Comparing Harimoto siblings, at Miwa's current age, TH had already established his name more than MH by beating all top Chinese minus Xu Xin while losing quite often to secondary players including a few European ones, showing a typical young emerging star growing pattern. Miwa, on the other hand, showed solid performance at the very beginning, though she hasn't shaken the dominance of top Chinese women (Sun, Chen Meng and Wang Manyu), but she beat many good players on the consistent base and only occasionally lost to some less name players.

So, at early age, the brother was raising more eye brows with wide inconsistency; the little sister showed great potential with solid and steady development.

In table tennis, like other competitive sports, a new comer knocking out top dogs are more impressive than beating many good players. However, by beating WYD and CXT, Miwa is closing on the top dogs. If she can finally do so, I would regard Miwa as the more successful sibling of the two.

 

[zeio]

I think Miwa can become N1 in 2025.
Her progress is real. I believe physically she is a monster. I've seen NO ONE as strong at her age. Tell me please.

She is playing exactly like the Chinese, and beat them at their own game. because her body is stronger, and she's quicker. You can say she plays like a robot, and lacks a bit of maturity and tactics. She faced already a bitter loss at WTTC team 2024. I think she is learning quickly on this side and her victories over WYD and CXT are not a fluke.
Unlike her bro, who can get some extraordinary win, but lose the next match, Miwa is very consistent. I believe if she wins someone like CXT, its not because all stars are aligned but just she's the better player and will do it again and again.

In 2 years time, i imagine she'll be even more impressive physically but as soon as next year she can become the N1.

ofc I'm totally biased and just an netizen fan

Tieba users have long been amazed by her physique, like how she looks two times the size of her teammates when standing side by side. But the consensus is that WS is far less competitive than MS, so Miwa is poised to get multiple medals in the 3 majors as long as she gets around the coaching issue (孫雪/Sun Xue from Shandong Luneng has laid a solid technical foundation, so free of the poor tradition of cutting corners), unlike her brother, who doesn't even have easy access to sparring partners, but has no shortage of teammates that constantly stab you in the back. As Tieba users point out, in the worst case, her brother can serve as her sparring partner, but not the other way around.

美和变直线也太牛了，正反手两条直线很像陈梦，身体天赋甚至更强 (Miwa's parallel shots are amazing. The two parallel shots on FH and BH are very similar to those of CM, and her physical talent is even stronger)
https://tieba.baidu.com/p/9173257818
陈幸同被美和掀翻了，看来还是前三对美和才有绝对胜率 (CXT got defeated by Miwa. It seems that only the top three have an absolute win rate against Miwa)
https://tieba.baidu.com/p/9173255681
理性讨论 张本美和能超过她哥的成就吗 (Rational discussion: Can Harimoto Miwa surpass her brother's achievements?)
https://tieba.baidu.com/p/9173455102

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...-be-revamped-for-paris-2024.24977/post-441817

Sense of table tennis exceeding that of Tomokazu Harimoto

The father who raised her brother acknowledges that quality

Harimoto Yu: Her training quality is higher than Tomokazu's

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Comparing Harimoto siblings, at Miwa's current age, TH had already established his name more than MH by beating all top Chinese minus Xu Xin while losing quite often to secondary players including a few European ones, showing a typical young emerging star growing pattern. Miwa, on the other hand, showed solid performance at the very beginning, though she hasn't shaken the dominance of top Chinese women (Sun, Chen Meng and Wang Manyu), but she beat many good players on the consistent base and only occasionally lost to some less name players.

So, at early age, the brother was raising more eye brows with wide inconsistency; the little sister showed great potential with solid and steady development.

In table tennis, like other competitive sports, a new comer knocking out top dogs are more impressive than beating many good players. However, by beating WYD and CXT, Miwa is closing on the top dogs. If she can finally do so, I would regard Miwa as the more successful sibling of the two.

There is still a huge gap between WYD/CXT and SYS/WMY. And to be the #1 and meet the (unfair) expectations that fans place on prodigies, she'll need to do it more than once. And that is the hardest part.

 

[Zwill]

@Zwill, looking at you!!!

I swear I saw @Gozo Aruna mixed among them.

 

[K.K]

He knows, he is trying to be PC to the point of denying obvious statements.

firstly it is 'she' and then no i didn't know, because i assumed that you meant having the advantage of growing up in a chinese training and knowledge environment and then moving to a different country and getting citizenship to make a living with sports. that is not the case with both players representing the countries their born in. are you just trolling around or what the?

 

[dingyibvs]

Comparing Harimoto siblings, at Miwa's current age, TH had already established his name more than MH by beating all top Chinese minus Xu Xin while losing quite often to secondary players including a few European ones, showing a typical young emerging star growing pattern. Miwa, on the other hand, showed solid performance at the very beginning, though she hasn't shaken the dominance of top Chinese women (Sun, Chen Meng and Wang Manyu), but she beat many good players on the consistent base and only occasionally lost to some less name players.

So, at early age, the brother was raising more eye brows with wide inconsistency; the little sister showed great potential with solid and steady development.

In table tennis, like other competitive sports, a new comer knocking out top dogs are more impressive than beating many good players. However, by beating WYD and CXT, Miwa is closing on the top dogs. If she can finally do so, I would regard Miwa as the more successful sibling of the two.

In that sense Miwa is more like Felix Lebrun than his brother.

 

[dingyibvs]

firstly it is 'she' and then no i didn't know, because i assumed that you meant having the advantage of growing up in a chinese training and knowledge environment and then moving to a different country and getting citizenship to make a living with sports. that is not the case with both players representing the countries their born in. are you just trolling around or what the?

I think he just meant that they're all ethnically Chinese, nothing more. I don't know how you extrapolated an essay from the two words "Chinese descendent".

 

[TampaBayTableTennis]

Kao vs Truls was epic!!!

 

[NextLevel]

firstly it is 'she' and then no i didn't know, because i assumed that you meant having the advantage of growing up in a chinese training and knowledge environment and then moving to a different country and getting citizenship to make a living with sports. that is not the case with both players representing the countries their born in. are you just trolling around or what the?

Haha. Nice you are a woman/lady, welcome to the forum.

No, I don't mean that, I am a table tennis fanatic and fairly conversant with a lots of things about table tennis players, I meant if you trace their parental lineage, their parents/grandparents/grandgrandparents are Chinese. The distinction between such players and players who are born and train in China and later emigrate before or after playing for China is known and accepted by many, especially on TTD. The point you are making is a point I could make to a less sophisticated audience, but our audience here is very sophisticated, people don't post here frequently without routinely knowing what you point out. But there are other things that can be discussed with such insights that people who want to have sophisticated discussions may have, and thankfully, we usually have such sophisticated discussions on TTD to a reasonable degree. So no, I know there are distinctions between someone like Qiu Dang or Wan Yuan vs someone like Han Ying or Wang Xi or Shan Xioana.

 

[K.K]

Haha. Nice you are a woman/lady, welcome to the forum.

No, I don't mean that, I am a table tennis fanatic and fairly conversant with a lots of things about table tennis players, I meant if you trace their parental lineage, their parents/grandparents/grandgrandparents are Chinese. The distinction between such players and players who are born and train in China and later emigrate before or after playing for China is known and accepted by many, especially on TTD. The point you are making is a point I could make to a less sophisticated audience, but our audience here is very sophisticated, people don't post here frequently without routinely knowing what you point out. But there are other things that can be discussed with such insights that people who want to have sophisticated discussions may have, and thankfully, we usually have such sophisticated discussions on TTD to a reasonable degree. So no, I know there are distinctions between someone like Qiu Dang or Wan Yuan vs someone like Han Ying or Wang Xi or Shan Xioana.

thanks a lot for that answer!

 

[blahness]

I think Miwa can become N1 in 2025.
Her progress is real. I believe physically she is a monster. I've seen NO ONE as strong at her age. Tell me please.

She is playing exactly like the Chinese, and beat them at their own game. because her body is stronger, and she's quicker. You can say she plays like a robot, and lacks a bit of maturity and tactics. She faced already a bitter loss at WTTC team 2024. I think she is learning quickly on this side and her victories over WYD and CXT are not a fluke.
Unlike her bro, who can get some extraordinary win, but lose the next match, Miwa is very consistent. I believe if she wins someone like CXT, its not because all stars are aligned but just she's the better player and will do it again and again.

In 2 years time, i imagine she'll be even more impressive physically but as soon as next year she can become the N1.

ofc I'm totally biased and just an netizen fan

Imo, she doesnt play like a robot. She has all 4 types of serve (pendulum, reverse pendulum, hook, heavy under/nospin) serves which she serves from multiple positions (middle, pivot), which is way more variation than her brother who always serves from pivot position and doesnt do hook or reverse pendulum much.

Her shot and placement selection is also quite advanced and I would say in some ways exceeding her brother who can be a bit 1 dimensional at times.

Her issue is that sometimes, she can dish out the variation but cant take it (in terms of the incoming variations) that well especially during the rally.

I saw Sun Yingsha completely dismantling her by simply changing up the spin amount in the counter and Miwa was making huge amounts of unforced errors because she wasnt reading the spin changes well. A lot of these spin changes are very subtle and controlled by the fingers so it is very difficult to detect them in real time.

Miwa only does well against the more 'robotic' (ie 1 dimensional) players in the CNT like CXT and WYD but the 1st tier (SYS, WMY, CM) play with too much spin and rhythm variations that she makes way too much unforced errors trying to keep up.

The problem for Miwa is that there is no one who plays like SYS/WMY on JNT to practice against - so outside of competitions she cant really get used to the spin variation.

I'm not entirely sure that she can solve these issues completely in the upcoming few years.

 

[zeio]

No evidence CCP ever claimed Japanese and Koreans were ethnic Chinese.

論讀書的重要性。

Historically, Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese regimes, especially among the elites, have identified themselves as 小中華/Little China and legitimate successors to Chinese culture and civilization.

For Japan, there is notable support for the legend that modern Japanese are descendants of 徐福/Xu Fu/Jofuku.

Who were the First Japanese? | History of Japan 2
https://youtu.be/1n8Cs9gOW9k?list=PLOWnSFzV-C9ZQS70LRfOpQodtb8oogcEs&t=61

The Yayoi Arrive...and Change EVERYTHING! | History of Japan 4
https://youtu.be/bDnV9UvrpaU?list=PLOWnSFzV-C9ZQS70LRfOpQodtb8oogcEs&t=96
How the Early Japanese Dealt with China (in the Yayoi Period) | History of Japan 6
https://youtu.be/wKREfmcEsEA?list=PLOWnSFzV-C9ZQS70LRfOpQodtb8oogcEs
Korea's (and China's) Role in Ancient Japan's Rise | History of Japan 14
https://youtu.be/zVY2w4x17zs?list=PLOWnSFzV-C9ZQS70LRfOpQodtb8oogcEs&index=14

History of Korea
https://youtu.be/JNTfibWtuQg?t=22

If anything, I have first-hand experience of what Wang Yi mentioned in 2023.

China's Wang Yi王毅 urges Japan, SKorea to bolster regional solidarity, oppose Cold War mentality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-57xamHMeI

 

[rpb23]

論讀書的重要性。

Historically, Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese regimes, especially among the elites, have identified themselves as 小中華/Little China and legitimate successors to Chinese culture and civilization.

For Japan, there is notable support for the legend that modern Japanese are descendants of 徐福/Xu Fu/Jofuku.

Who were the First Japanese? | History of Japan 2
https://youtu.be/1n8Cs9gOW9k?list=PLOWnSFzV-C9ZQS70LRfOpQodtb8oogcEs&t=61

The Yayoi Arrive...and Change EVERYTHING! | History of Japan 4
https://youtu.be/bDnV9UvrpaU?list=PLOWnSFzV-C9ZQS70LRfOpQodtb8oogcEs&t=96
How the Early Japanese Dealt with China (in the Yayoi Period) | History of Japan 6
https://youtu.be/wKREfmcEsEA?list=PLOWnSFzV-C9ZQS70LRfOpQodtb8oogcEs
Korea's (and China's) Role in Ancient Japan's Rise | History of Japan 14
https://youtu.be/zVY2w4x17zs?list=PLOWnSFzV-C9ZQS70LRfOpQodtb8oogcEs&index=14

History of Korea
https://youtu.be/JNTfibWtuQg?t=22

If anything, I have first-hand experience of what Wang Yi mentioned in 2023.

China's Wang Yi王毅 urges Japan, SKorea to bolster regional solidarity, oppose Cold War mentality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-57xamHMeI

You are wasting your time here. I have no problem, you or anyone think Japanese and Koreans are Chinese descendants. But that's not the official statement of Chinese government, let alone CCP which has no business involving in these sensitive foreign affairs. Even Wang Yi won't say this outright. Saying China, Japan and Korea all form the bulk of the East Asian and share similar culture is one thing, claiming Japanese and Korean are virtually Chinese is quite another.
Just an interesting note, there is an island called Taiwan whose residents are primarily all true Chinese descendants, yet, the majority of them, especially among younger generations would refuse to acknowledge they are Chinese.

 

[rpb23]

Imo, she doesnt play like a robot. She has all 4 types of serve (pendulum, reverse pendulum, hook, heavy under/nospin) serves which she serves from multiple positions (middle, pivot), which is way more variation than her brother who always serves from pivot position and doesnt do hook or reverse pendulum much.

Her shot and placement selection is also quite advanced and I would say in some ways exceeding her brother who can be a bit 1 dimensional at times.

Her issue is that sometimes, she can dish out the variation but cant take it (in terms of the incoming variations) that well especially during the rally.

I saw Sun Yingsha completely dismantling her by simply changing up the spin amount in the counter and Miwa was making huge amounts of unforced errors because she wasnt reading the spin changes well. A lot of these spin changes are very subtle and controlled by the fingers so it is very difficult to detect them in real time.

Miwa only does well against the more 'robotic' (ie 1 dimensional) players in the CNT like CXT and WYD but the 1st tier (SYS, WMY, CM) play with too much spin and rhythm variations that she makes way too much unforced errors trying to keep up.

The problem for Miwa is that there is no one who plays like SYS/WMY on JNT to practice against - so outside of competitions she cant really get used to the spin variation.

I'm not entirely sure that she can solve these issues completely in the upcoming few years.

Miwa has a solid all round games with quality shots rarely seem at players of her age. But she doesn't have a killer shot that scares her opponents.
Tomo, started with super fast backhand (flip/drive/loop/punch) as his killer shot. His game at that time was unbalanced with forehand his major weakness. At the early sage of his table tennis career, most pros, even including top Chinese ones were shocked by his devastating backhand lightening quickness. When Tomo added quick shots down the line from the backhand, even Ma Long, FZD couldn't handle it. That's why he scored a few eye-catching victories against these heavy weights. Once Chinese analyzed his game and explored his weakness, his effectiveness against them went down markedly. Of course, he has also been busy developing his game, trying to make his game more balanced and he succeeded in good degree which is why he still remains the threat to Chinese, just not as effective as before.
In summery, Miwa is a late boomer (compared to Tomo) due to lack of killer shot. Tomo, blessed with a killer shot was an early bird. Which sibling can go far, early bird or late boomer? Will be interesting to see. But I'm leaning on Miwa.