WTT Contender Muscat 2023

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I could be wrong, but it looked like he had a couple of inches on Miwa when I was watching their doubles match. Sometimes website data doesn't get updated for growing young men :).

A stoic Matsushima next to an always smiling Miwa:

53256937823-951f13656f-c.jpg
 
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You could be comparing "hair height" here (just ignore the insoles/shoes for the time being).

Look back on how the height of Kihara and Nagasaki looked to you in 2019. In 2023, both of them still stand at 164cm.

2019
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/2019-ittf-world-tour-grand-finals.22442/post-299880
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/2019-ittf-world-tour-grand-finals.22442/post-299634
4zmlJG1.jpg

uPviZ5R.jpg


2023
https://tleague.jp/player/#ka-kanagawa
https://web.archive.org/web/2023092...is/athlete-profile-n2014626-nagasaki-miyu.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/2023092...nis/athlete-profile-n2014620-kihara-miyuu.htm

Here is what "a couple of inches" and "a couple of centimeters" look like. Note the difference in "shoulder height".

Hirano 158cm
Ito 152cm
6cm ~= 2 23/64"

https://web.archive.org/web/2023092...ennis/athlete-profile-n2014629-hirano-miu.htm
https://www.alamy.com/2nd-place-mui...oto-sanjin-strukicpixsell-image498526711.html
vLF1xX0.jpg


SYS 162cm
4cm ~= 1 37/64"

https://web.archive.org/web/2023092...nnis/athlete-profile-n2007149-sun-yingsha.htm
https://news.cgtn.com/news/2023-07-03/China-clinch-three-titles-at-WTT-Zagreb-1l8DUahz572/index.html
5NPQPYO.jpg


The latest source (5/2023) says Miwa is 166cm. For reference, Hayata is 166/167/168cm according to different sources (mostly 166/167).

Hayata 166/167cm
Harimoto 165/166cm

https://web.archive.org/web/2023092...nnis/athlete-profile-n2014621-hayata-hina.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/2023092...is/athlete-profile-n2014622-harimoto-miwa.htm

From Zennoh Cup Hiratsuka 2023/5/6-7
rHxhjos.jpg


Togami 170cm
https://web.archive.org/web/2023092.../athlete-profile-n2014618-togami-shunsuke.htm
5FI7A8N.jpg
 
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Miwa's eyes line up to about Sora's lips. From there to his eyes is at least 2 inches (~5 cm) probably closer to 3 inches. But easily more than 2 cm (not even 1 inch).
 
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3-4cm at best, which is ~1.18-1.57 inches. Togami and Hayata standing next to each other is the best proof. Miwa's head is tilted forward in that picture.

Here is Miwa's brother and Hayata standing next to each other. Hayata's eyes line up to about Miwa's brother's lips, so?

Miwa's brother 176cm
176-166=10cm ~= 3 15/16"
176-167=9cm ~= 3 35/64"
176-168=8cm ~= 3 5/32"

https://web.archive.org/web/2023092...thlete-profile-n2014623-harimoto-tomokazu.htm
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91479&PID=1143369
5q5ly9W.jpg
 
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I think the general public has high standards, though to be fair, Yu Ziyang did beat Mizutani as a 16 year old (yes, with mild controversy) and never went on to bigger things for whatever reason.

How many of the guys who finished above him in the U19 trials would beat Togami in a match? Just curious.
Togami isn't coined "全年备战张本/prepping for Harimoto year-round" by Tieba and 5ch users for nothing. Also, he was bothered by injuries and poor form at Zennoh Cup Tokyo back in late July. There's been no follow-up news on that so we don't know if he was at 100% the past 2 months.

Uda, close to 20 at the time, also lost to Matsushima, 14 at the time, at the ATTC 2021 selection trial (IIRC, Togami finished 2nd there and went on to get ATTC 2021 MS bronze, MD gold with Uda and XD gold with Hayata.) Uda finished 1st and Togami finished 3rd at the WTTC 2021 selection trial (both went on to get WTTC 2021 MD bronze). And Uda did relatively well internationally in 2022, namely Singapore Smash and Asian Cup. Matsushima has to display that level of play in bigger tournaments than WTT CT.

Another metric would be to compare how Uda/Togami did in the WJTTC selection trials at roughly the same age. It will take a lot of time to collect the data, though.

【卓球】戸上隼輔、逆転4強も体調不良で取材キャンセル 張本智和は4―2で宇田幸矢下す
https://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2023/07/22/kiji/20230722s00026000519000c.html
 
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Togami isn't coined "全年备战张本/prepping for Harimoto year-round" by Tieba and 5ch users for nothing. Also, he was bothered by injuries and poor form at Zennoh Cup Tokyo back in late July. There's been no follow-up news on that so we don't know if he was at 100% the past 2 months.

Uda, close to 20 at the time, also lost to Matsushima, 14 at the time, at the ATTC 2021 selection trial (IIRC, Togami finished 2nd there and went on to get ATTC 2021 MS bronze and MD gold with Uda.) Uda finished 1st and Togami finished 3rd at the WTTC 2021 selection trial (both went on to get WTTC 2021 MD bronze). And Uda did relatively well internationally in 2022, namely Singapore Smash and Asian Cup. Matsushima has to display that level of play in bigger tournaments than WTT SCT and CT.

Another metric would be to compare how Uda/Togami did in the WJTTC selection trials at roughly the same age. It will take a lot of time to collect the data, though.

【卓球】戸上隼輔、逆転4強も体調不良で取材キャンセル 張本智和は4―2で宇田幸矢下す
https://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2023/07/22/kiji/20230722s00026000519000c.html
Togami beats Wong Chun Ting in the same tournament and has multiple results and matches from other tournaments and now we are discussing injuries from July because he lost to Matsushima... seriously?

No one knows the future, but the main point is that the kid is not average, how far above, we are yet to determine as you have pointed out, but even if he hasn't done Harimoto stuff, the people he has beaten have been pretty impressive.
 
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First and foremost, I always got reminded that WCT is overrated.

Remember how Harimoto got covid in mid-August and he thought he was going to die? ML had recovered from covid not that long and lost to Yoshimura at the Asia Continental Stage of WTTC 2023 at the start of the year.

Hayata lost to LWS in first round (she even wrote about that on Instagram, which is rare) and SYB lost to Harimoto ("blaming" it on low back pain) at WTT SCT Lanzhou after getting their WS silver and bronze at Asian Games, respectively, so?

Once again, his dad mentions in that interview that Matsushima has been winning so far in the bambi division because he got to the starting line sooner than other people, that he will remain anxious until he wins the National Title despite having their eyes set on World Titles.

"This kid is not average" doesn't cut it. Uda and Togami are not average, either. They have beaten CNT players their age at WJTTC 2018 (Uda beat Xu Yingbin and Xiang Peng but lost to Xu Haidong to get JBS silver) and 2019 (Togami beat Xu Yingbin but lost to Xiang Peng to get JBS bronze), respectively. Uda beat Boll, QD, and LJH at Singapore Smash and Gnanasekaran and WCT but lost to LJH at Asian Cup in 2022. Togami beat Calderano, Freitas, Alamiyan, O. Ionescu et. al but lost to WCT at WTTC 2022. What do people say about them now? Harimoto is not average, either, and what do people say about him now? If the Japanese/Chinese folks or I do not demand the same high standard from Matsushima as you said, they or I would be guilty of double standard instead.
 
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First and foremost, I always got reminded that WCT is overrated.

Remember how Harimoto got covid in mid-August and he thought he was going to die? ML recovered from covid not that long and lost to Yoshimura at the ATTC 2023 Continental Stage at the start of the year.

Hayata lost to LWS in first round and SYB lost to Harimoto ("blaming" it on low back pain) at WTT SCT Lanzhou after getting their WS bronze at Asian Games, so?

Once again, his dad mentions in that interview that Matsushima has been winning so far because he got to the starting line sooner than other people, that he will remain anxious until he wins the National Title despite having their eyes set on World Titles.

"This kid is not average" doesn't cut it. Uda and Togami are not average, either. They have beaten CNT players their age at WJTTC 2018 (Uda beat Xu Yingbin and Xiang Peng but lost to Xu Haidong to get JBS silver) and 2019 (Togami beat Xu Yingbin but lost to Xiang Peng to get JBS bronze), respectively. Uda beat Boll, QD, and LJH at Singapore Smash and Gnanasekaran and WCT but lost to LJH at Asian Cup in 2022. Togami beat Calderano, Freitas, Alamiyan, O. Ionescu et. al but lost to WCT at WTTC 2022. What do people say about them now? Harimoto is not average, either, and what do people say about him now? If the Japanese/Chinese folks or I do not demand the same high standard from Matsushima as you said, they or I would be guilty of double standard instead.
ML lost to Yoshimura (in a match with very low stakes for ML) and then beat Togami (in a match with low stakes with very low stakes for ML). Anyone can lose and anyone can win, but the point is not to take the excuses seriously, but to take the result for what it is - if the form of Togami is being called into question just for Matsushima, then we have a problem. If it is to say that anyone can beat Togami in his current form, then we need to put all his results in perspective and explain how he was motivated enough to beat WCT but lacked the motivation to beat a compatriot without any national titles.

Age-relative, Matsushima's results are better than Uda's, but unlike most of the people you cited, the main feature of Uda is I don't see him much anymore. I don't think his career is over or his best days are behind him and if Matsushima was to be like him but not disappear from the tour (maybe by being more consistently competitive within Japan), that would be okay with me to be honest. Hopefully Japan can revise their approach to actually allow the players who do well internationally to find spots on the team and on the tour.

That said, I get you are consistent just as I am - I think Harimoto is doing well. LJH and AJH would have been written off years ago with some of these standards. At some point, people have to accept that the Chinese are incredibly hard to beat.
 
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By the same token, WCT lost to Togami (in a match with very low stakes for WCT) and in turn Togami lost to Matsushima (in a match with very low stakes for Togami), so using that as an argument to build a case against Togami for losing to ML and Matsushima sounds much more weird than attributing it to form and injuries. Regardless, for 2022, Yoshimura had an 82.35% win rate (75% vs CNT) and Togami a 62.5% win rate (50% vs CNT). One could argue Yoshimura lived up to his win over Togami in the Asian Games selection trial.

Before beating WCQ, Achanta and LJH at ATTC 2023, Tanaka had a 78.57% win rate (100% vs CNT). At that point, he had beaten Sai Linwei, Niu Guankai and Allegro to win WTT FEE Dusseldorf II, then he beat Xu Yingbin before losing to Duda at WTT SCT Goa, and he went down to the wire with Ovtcharov at WTT SCT Bangkok. Admittedly, even I underestimated him despite having the numbers in front of me.

Matsushima has a 75% win rate after WTT SCT Lanzhou 2023 and WTT CT Muscat 2023. Are you going to brush them off again? But like I said, he has to play more in the senior event until the whole picture becomes more clear. You see, like Togami who had a great start after ATTC 2021, Shinozuka also looked great, being 2nd in the race ahead of Togami, until he came down with a herniated disc in 4/2023. At that point, he had beaten Pletea, Falck, Duda, CCY and Jarvis to win WTT FEE Fremont 2022. After that he beat CCA, Falck again, Xu Yingbin before losing to LSD 3-4 (had matchpoints) at WTT FEE ESS 2022. He then went on to beat Niu Guankai, LSS, Wang Yang, Chen Yuanyu (lost 2-3 earlier at WTT CT Zagreb) before losing to Filus 3-4 (had matchpoints) at WTT CT Almaty 2022. Closing the year, he beat Karlsson, Iulian Chirita (top junior in U17/U19, same age as Felix Leburn), LSS again, Oikawa (lost 1-4 earlier at WTT FEE Westchester) and Jorgic to win WTT CT Nova Gorica 2022. 2023 has been a disappointing year due to his injury but Shinozuka managed to lead 2-1 and most of G4 against LGY at ATTC 2023. What do people say about him now?

So please, no one is writing off a specific player when the same high standard is and should be applied to everyone, regardless of age (which started out as a jest and got us into this debate). After beating Harimoto 4-1 at WTTC 2017, XX told reporters that age was irrelevant and he treated Harimoto as an adult. That is what I, and I believe others, have been doing here.

The reason you don't see Uda much now is for the same reason Ishikawa withdrew after a year into the race and (finally) retired after losing out on WTTC 2023. As I stated last year over at MyTT, and I quote below:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...tle=wttc-finals-2022-chengdu-9-3010-9#1131746
Now, why did Ito say the race would be decided this year? Because there are checkpoints players have to clear. And the impending one? WTTC 2023. We don't even have to wait until the end to see that whoever misses out on WTTC 2023 will be met with a deficit that will be next to impossible to compensate in the remaining race. Hirano is at the point of no return here. Had the Asian Games been held after Zennoh Cup as originally planned, she'd have been fine, but now?

For the men, rather than WTTC 2023 (only Harimoto got 80 pts), ATTC 2023 was the checkpoint (standings after Nojima Cup in mid-June and Uda last played at WTT CT Zagreb in late June). Uda is in 7th place now. Suppose he wins the last 2 trials (100+120=220pts) with the others getting the minimum points (20+10=30pts), he will only finish 3rd at best. At that point, it's in his best interest to turn his attention to the domestic trials, which he did and finished 5th (with Tanaka 3rd and Shinozuka 4th) at Zennoh Cup Tokyo in late July.

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91479&PID=1144117
23WK33
MS
Atc9uJz.png


http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91479&PID=1145426
After ATTC 2023 and Asian Games
mn3gK9F.png
 
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Low stakes probably means a different thing for me and you. What would have been the consequences of Ma Long losing to Yoshimura? That's how I define the stakes - the loss simply gave him another opportunity to qualify. Remember, Ma Long already pulled this same stunt under very similar circumstances over a decade ago, losing 0-4 to Koki Niwa. There is precedent here. Togami and WCT and Matsushima are all trying to get their tour rankings up. Those points are not meaningless to them - definitely not the same stakes as a WTTC quarterfinal but not as low as an qualifier for an event that they will play in regardless. But define stakes as you please.

The main point here still stands: if you want to argue that Matsushima beating Togami is tied to Togami not being well, then it has to be tied to Togami's overall play, not just an excuse to talk about Matsushima, the stakes were high enough for Togami to beat Wong Chun Ting, Togami didn't sleepwalk into the match. I know you have different standards, where someone empathizing with sportsmen is not allowed, I am 100% okay with these guys striving to be better, that is what life is about.

Statistics can be used to mean anything in the absence of causal explanations. Shinozuka is injured, it is unfortunate, hopefully he can get good medical care. Hopefully with youth and a good resurgence, he can continue his original trajectory. Tanaka, obviously a good player, lost to LYJ 0-3 in the quarter finals at ATTC - what does that say about him? And why is that completely missing from your analysis?

All these players have a long life ahead of them. Apply to them whatever standard you choose. I would argue that Sora beating players like Dima at his age is a good sign for him. But I can understand why Tieba users are not impressed. But no, I do not treat them as adults. I have never treated Harimoto and such as adults. We can agree to disagree on that one.
 
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Bumping this up because of WTT CS Frankfurt and WTT CT Taiyuan, from which it can be been no one cared about beating (or losing to if you will) Togami (not just Harimoto)... LOL

I've been following the news and there is no news on WCT losing to Togami at WTT SCT Lanzhou. So no stakes at all. The news has been all about the Asian Games MS bronze. WCT has done a ton of interviews and in various clips he talks about the weight of this bronze medal and how he wishes this result could inspire the future generations to pick up table tennis. Lastly, he wants more youngsters to rise and "dethrone" him.

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91479&PID=1141664
A Bilibili uploader has subbed some the mixed-zone interviews for Zennoh Cup Hiratsuka. It turns out I skipped the crucial part. To think those words came out of Harimoto's mouth...

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1kz4y1a77b?t=82.2
Harimoto after 3-4 Togami: "Rather than defeating Togami, I'm more looking forward to winning an Olympic medal. LOL!"
MQYcjAn.jpg

https://www.hk01.com/即時體育/946716/杭州亞運-直擊-黃鎮廷勇挫林昀儒鎖定獎牌-突破全靠心態放得開
「好激動!」是港隊男單代表黃鎮廷步出採訪區的第一句說話,不單止是因為獎牌,而是自己在場上有突破,「以往打逆境波或實力較強的對手,好多時候自己都會捱不住,或者全場捱打,但今場一路控制住自己情緒,並勝出賽事,是在場上的一大突破,所以這塊獎牌含金量好重。」
"So excited!" was the first phrase of the Hong Kong team's men's singles representative Wong Chun Ting when he stepped out of the mixed zone. It was not just because of the medals, but because of his breakthroughs on the court. "In the past, when I played an uphill battle or stronger opponents, many times I would have been unable to bear it, or I would have been getting beaten up throughout the match, but controlling my emotions all the way and winning the match this time was a big breakthrough on the court, so this medal is very valuable."
https://www.hk01.com/即時體育/947078/杭州亞運直擊-港乒一哥終正名-黃鎮廷首獲獎牌-想有後輩衝擊我
「根本不需要解決年齡問題,港隊人比較少,我也希望更多人衝擊我。如果有4至5個有競技水平(的球手)打上來,我可能22歲已經退下來。」
"There is no need to solve the age issue at all. The Hong Kong team has relatively few members, and I also hope that more people will challenge me. If 4 to 5 competitive players come up, I may have retired at the age of 22."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_D2Qk6m-oM

And ML didn't lose to Niwa in that match because of low stakes, but the exact opposite, he treated it with high stakes, too high.
“过于紧张,完全不知谁是真正的马龙(微博),在迷迷糊糊之中,就输掉了比赛。”你能想到这是马龙对自己的评价吗?

...

“过于紧张,过于在乎每一分、每一个球,所以完全没有发挥出来。”马龙说。

...

赛后,刘国梁告诉晶报记者,马龙确实出现了“大问题”,完成了奥运名额目标,但是过程不完美。“首先是心理问题,一个17岁小将击败马龙,不是说他打得有多好,而是马龙自己完全没打出来。看得出,他太紧张,太重视这个比赛,重视每一分;其次是打法上,丹羽是左手选手,一旦马龙被锁住之后,办法不多。”

...

“没人怀疑马龙的能力和才华,但在涉及奥运会这样重大的比赛中,一旦心理出现问题,输给谁都有可能,2000年马琳(微博)、2008年王楠(微博),都在奥运预选赛中输过球,说明奥运会的特别性。”刘国梁表示回去之后要好好总结这场比赛,并在3个月的时间里,用非常规办法加强马龙的心理能力,帮助他今后变得更强大。
"I was too nervous and had no idea who the real Ma Long was (Weibo). I lost the match while in confusion." Can you imagine that this is Ma Long's assessment of himself?

"I was too nervous and cared too much about every point and every ball, so I didn't perform at all," said Ma long.

After the match, Liu Guoliang told the Jingbao reporter that Ma Long did have a "big problem" and even though achieved his Olympic quota target, the process was not perfect. "First of all, it's a psychological problem. When a 17-year-old younster defeated Ma Long, it's not how well he played, but Ma Long himself didn't perform at all. It can be seen that he was too nervous, took this match too seriously, and valued every point; secondly in terms of playing style, Niwa is a left-handed player, so once Ma Long is pinpointed, there are not many options."

"No one doubts Ma Long's ability and talent, but in such a major competition involving the Olympics, once there is a psychological problem, it is possible to lose to anyone. Ma Lin in 2000 (Weibo) and Wang Nan (Weibo) in 2008, both had lost in the Olympic qualifiers and it shows the specialness of the Olympics." Liu Guoliang said that after returning home, he would sum up the match and use unconventional methods to strengthen Ma Long's mental ability in 3 months to help him become stronger in the future.
 
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Bumping this up because of WTT CS Frankfurt and WTT CT Taiyuan, from which it can be been no one cared about beating (or losing to if you will) Togami (not just Harimoto)... LOL

I've been following the news and there is no news on WCT losing to Togami at WTT SCT Lanzhou. So no stakes at all. The news has been all about the Asian Games MS bronze. WCT has done a ton of interviews and in various clips he talks about the weight of this bronze medal and how he wishes this result could inspire the future generations to pick up table tennis. Lastly, he wants more youngsters to rise and "dethrone" him.

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91479&PID=1141664


https://www.hk01.com/即時體育/946716/杭州亞運-直擊-黃鎮廷勇挫林昀儒鎖定獎牌-突破全靠心態放得開

"So excited!" was the first phrase of the Hong Kong team's men's singles representative Wong Chun Ting when he stepped out of the mixed zone. It was not just because of the medals, but because of his breakthroughs on the court. "In the past, when I played an uphill battle or stronger opponents, many times I would have been unable to bear it, or I would have been getting beaten up throughout the match, but controlling my emotions all the way and winning the match this time was a big breakthrough on the court, so this medal is very valuable."
https://www.hk01.com/即時體育/947078/杭州亞運直擊-港乒一哥終正名-黃鎮廷首獲獎牌-想有後輩衝擊我

"There is no need to solve the age issue at all. The Hong Kong team has relatively few members, and I also hope that more people will challenge me. If 4 to 5 competitive players come up, I may have retired at the age of 22."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_D2Qk6m-oM

And ML didn't lose to Niwa in that match because of low stakes, but the exact opposite, he treated it with high stakes, too high.


"I was too nervous and had no idea who the real Ma Long was (Weibo). I lost the match while in confusion." Can you imagine that this is Ma Long's assessment of himself?

"I was too nervous and cared too much about every point and every ball, so I didn't perform at all," said Ma long.

After the match, Liu Guoliang told the Jingbao reporter that Ma Long did have a "big problem" and even though achieved his Olympic quota target, the process was not perfect. "First of all, it's a psychological problem. When a 17-year-old younster defeated Ma Long, it's not how well he played, but Ma Long himself didn't perform at all. It can be seen that he was too nervous, took this match too seriously, and valued every point; secondly in terms of playing style, Niwa is a left-handed player, so once Ma Long is pinpointed, there are not many options."

"No one doubts Ma Long's ability and talent, but in such a major competition involving the Olympics, once there is a psychological problem, it is possible to lose to anyone. Ma Lin in 2000 (Weibo) and Wang Nan (Weibo) in 2008, both had lost in the Olympic qualifiers and it shows the specialness of the Olympics." Liu Guoliang said that after returning home, he would sum up the match and use unconventional methods to strengthen Ma Long's mental ability in 3 months to help him become stronger in the future.
Let's remember, the stakes conversation was about Togami, not WCT, and about using that as an explanation for Togami's form losing to Matsushima just after Togami had beaten WCT.

As for the Ma Long issue, regardless of explanation, the main point is that the loss cost him nothing of significance, just as the lost to Yoshimura cost him nothing of significance - if the match loss had cost Ma Long a chance to play at the Olympics, that would be a different story. We can discuss this eternally, but your refusal to concede that without issue is not really a good look for your approach to argumentation. One can give all the reasons for his frustration and underperformance, but the losses cost him nothing.
 
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
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Just ran into an article by sports writer TAKAGI Mini a week after Zennoh Cup Tokyo, which I missed again, where Harimoto mentions he noticed Togami's form had been off since WTT SCT Ljubjana 2023 at the start of July, even though Togami reached the QF after 3-1 LSS, 3-2 Harimoto, 3-2 Gacina, and 2-3 Calderano. OTOH, Togami has never talked about his form even when something is clearly wrong, as Takagi also points out in that article. So like I suspected last month, it's very likely he had not been playing at 100% the past 2 months.
 
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Just ran into an article by sports writer TAKAGI Mini a week after Zennoh Cup Tokyo, which I missed again, where Harimoto mentions he noticed Togami's form had been off since WTT SCT Ljubjana 2023 at the start of July, even though Togami reached the QF after 3-1 LSS, 3-2 Harimoto, 3-2 Gacina, and 2-3 Calderano. OTOH, Togami has never talked about his form even when something is clearly wrong, as Takagi also points out in that article. So like I suspected last month, it's very likely he had not been playing at 100% the past 2 months.
He looked really sick after Ljubjana, some fans said he had covid, wonder if it was true
 
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