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View Full Version : Difference between forehand drive and forehand loop?



waldner101
09-10-2016, 03:06 PM
What is the difference between forehand drive and the forehand loop.

songdavid98
09-10-2016, 03:07 PM
One has more spin. A lot more energy is put into spin.

For the drive, you sort of just focus on colliding with the ball. The stroke is not too big.

For the forehand loop, you focus on hitting and spinning the ball. The stroke is much bigger.


If you have ever played against somebody who can loop, you will instantly see and feel the difference.


Have you seen videos of people forehand looping?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8JEwwA0Jl4

waldner101
09-10-2016, 04:07 PM
I only watch table tennis not play.

ajtatosmano2
09-10-2016, 04:55 PM
I only watch table tennis not play.
Hi, I'm very happy to see people like you! Unfortunately table tennis is hard to understand without playing experience, that's why are few people who just watch. Try to find videos from a different angle than official (recorded from top/back).
They are much more entertaining. At first google: table tennis Chinese trials 2016. These ones are short (unless you watch uncut) but a good start.

Archosaurus
09-10-2016, 06:56 PM
You can only understand it when you do it.

Like's been said, a loop is a stroke with a lot of spin upwards/forwards. You don't hit into the ball as much as you grab it and make it spin.

However, you could be doing what you think is a loop when it's not. Hence why I think you really need to learn it yourself to understand it properly.

UpSideDownCarl
09-10-2016, 08:22 PM
Yeah. It is hard to see. The contact on a drive is more direct and so is the impact. On a loop, the contact is much more tangential. The rubber grabs a small part of the edge of the ball and the ball sinks into the sponge only a certain amount.

When watching the arc of the ball, a drive will be straighter and have less arc from the spin. A loop may not be quite as fast, but it will arc down towards the table more and accelerate off the bounce. After the bounce the loop could be going faster than a drive even though it was going slower before the bounce.

From a counter-attack standpoint the spin of a good loop is often harder to counter than the pace of a fast drive.

From a defensive standpoint this is usually the case too.

From farther back a drive stays up more and starts to lose its pace. A good loop does not get as far back because the spin on the ball arcs the ball towards the ground after the bounce the same way it arcs the ball towards the table before the bounce.

A drive loop has some of the characteristics of a drive and some of the characteristics of a loop.

But, these things are very hard to see and understand if you can't do them. I remember seeing people loop before I could loop and really, just not understanding quite what I was looking at.

No reason you can't try to see the difference though.


Sent from Inside The Chamber of Secrets by Patronus

Archosaurus
09-10-2016, 08:29 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mZRxA_qxdA

This is the first thing that came up when I googled "Table tennis slow motion".

It's not extremely visible, but try to see the large arc the ball takes, and the acceleration after it hits the table. You won't see that too much in a drive, because drives don't have enough spin to cause those effects to the extent a loop can.

Ahmad Arnous
09-10-2016, 09:01 PM
Drive : no spin
Loop : high spin

Archosaurus
09-10-2016, 09:45 PM
Also, bear in mind that the Japanese, and possibly other nationalities, will call the loop a drive.

"Duraibu" in Japanese just means loop, or topspin.

songdavid98
09-11-2016, 02:23 AM
Also, bear in mind that the Japanese, and possibly other nationalities, will call the loop a drive.

"Duraibu" in Japanese just means loop, or topspin.

Actually, Japanese people will call it a loop.
I know because
1) I took Japanese for 4 years.
2) I talk to Japanese people
3) I watch Japanese Table Tennis Youtube videos. This one is really active https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0ML1BOQVPYv6GLOz854S7w

It's just like English. They will call things loops, loop drives, drives, and topspins.

rokphish
09-11-2016, 02:47 AM
Darn it man, you're making Archie sounds like an @$$ again....

Recently with the Chinese, and now with Japanese... What country/language/culture next in line to be butchered?

What are we going to do with you guys?!?

Archosaurus
09-11-2016, 12:38 PM
Actually, Japanese people will call it a loop.
I know because
1) I took Japanese for 4 years.
2) I talk to Japanese people
3) I watch Japanese Table Tennis Youtube videos. This one is really active https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0ML1BOQVPYv6GLOz854S7w

It's just like English. They will call things loops, loop drives, drives, and topspins.
Yes, because I said that the Japanese won't call it a loop or a topspin. :rolleyes: I said that the Japanese commonly say "drive" but they don't always mean drive in the sense that we do. I think it's an older generation thing, because I'm starting to hear it less and less, at least online. You posted WRM, a modern TT channel and I can't remember anyone talking about "drives", at least.

You said it's like English: do you mean people who speak English call heavy-topspin shots "drives" as well?

TurboZ
09-11-2016, 01:12 PM
I found some Japanese videos that talks about the difference between "Speed Drive" and "Loop Drive". It seems that they would call a forward movement attack "Drive" but adding another word in front to differentiate them.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3FhBqhgi44

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdQpO0We0kg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vnB4op3L-I

UpSideDownCarl
09-11-2016, 01:53 PM
Come on Archo. Do you really want to turn this guys question into an argument about your....ahem...."expertise" in Japanese?

The subject is the difference between a loop and a drive. Why are you turning this into a discussion on Japanese?

Just drop it.


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Archosaurus
09-11-2016, 02:02 PM
Come on Archo. Do you really want to turn this guys question into an argument about your....ahem....your "expertise" in Japanese?

The subject is the difference between a loop and a drive. Why are you turning this into a discussion on Japanese?

Just drop it.


Sent from Inside The Chamber of Secrets by Patronus
Yes, sorry about that. I re-read my post a few times, and I didn't express it quite clearly enough.

I wasn't meaning to start an argument about technical terms: I was just pointing it out.

However I mistakenly expressed it as "X is always called X" and not "X is sometimes called X". The latter would help the OP when he comes across the definition, the former has nothing to do with the topic. :rolleyes:

UpSideDownCarl
09-11-2016, 02:23 PM
Well, thanks for dropping the discussion about the nuances of Japanese everyone.

Even in English I get the sense sometimes that someone uses the term drive to mean loop and loop to mean drive.

I am not so concerned with names or language. But there is a shot where the blade moves in a way so that the rubber lightly brushes the ball and the ball sinks into the rubber but the racket is moving at such an angle that the ball doesn't really impact the blade much, if at all. And that shot gets A LOT OF SPIN. And that shot is usually called a loop.

There is another shot where the racket moves directly into the ball with the racket at a slight angle. On this shot the ball compresses the rubber and sponge and impacts almost directly to the wood of the blade. In this shot some spin is generated and a lot of pace. And on that shot is called a drive.

Then there is a shot half way between the two where there is some impact all the way into the wood but there is a more tangential angle of impact where a very decent amount of spin is generated but you also get some of the pace of a drive. This shot with the impact half way between a loop and a drive is sometimes called a loop-drive.

But some people who use the term "power-loop" mean the loop drive. And other people who use the term "power-loop" mean a loop vs backspin with a MASSIVE amount of spin and pace.

So, the terms don't really matter to me and they get conflated all the time. But the techniques are the techniques.

And I feel like, a large percentage of the time, when someone who is under 1500 is talking about a "loop", usually they are really talking about a drive.

Hopefully that information is helpful.


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Hasna Haura Hayfa
10-12-2021, 06:00 AM
please give me a video on how to loop kill with a hard sponge > 50 degrees & the rubber is a little sticky

brokenball
10-12-2021, 07:18 AM
I haven't posted on this thread so I will now.
I have a definition of sorts.
A looped ball will dive due to the Magnus effect.
Since all balls with top spin will dive a little bit, it is necessary to qualify my statement
The Magnus effect, this is the force that makes the ball dive or arc, is proportional to the spin times the speed or v*ω
where:
v is the velocity of the ball
ω is the spin in radians per second.
So spin and speed are required.
However, good loops are low over the net and
ω*r > v r is the radius of the ball.
This means the bottom surface speed of the ball is moving faster backwards than the ball is moving forwards. On contact the ball will push off the table resulting in more speed but losing some spin. The ball will jump out low at the opponent.

Too many people call anything with top spin a loop.
I recently posted a link to a Timo Boll video showing how he loops balls by waiting for them to drop between net and table height. He must hit the ball up a bit to get it over the net but that is good because the highest point in the trajectory should be at the net. Boll relies on the top spin to make the ball drop once the ball goes over the net. Yes, it takes some paddle speed and good timing to manage this.

Since the Magnus effect is proportional to v*ω it is easy to see that hitting through the ball will result in no spin and thinly brushing the ball will result in no or low speed. The ball should be hit in such a way to maximize v*ω. This can be calculated and optimized. That is what hard headed old fuddy-duddy engineers do. I forgot a few other adjectives.

Think Goldilocks, not to hard, not too soft, not to thin, not to thick, just right works best.

allencorn
10-13-2021, 05:31 AM
If the OP really wants to see the difference, watch a match with one of the top choppers. You can clearly see when the attacker spins the ball (loop) and when they drive the ball (drive).

Funk Fu Master
10-13-2021, 06:45 AM
This is my understanding, and please do correct me, cause I'm not sure if I'm right ..

With a drive, the focus is more on speed, rather than spin. The Opposite holds true, for Loop.
A drive is played with a quicker timing, and more compact stroke, and faster hand-speed. With a Loop, the timing could be a bit later, but the stroke is comparatively larger.
With a Loop, your racquet has to drop lower, compared to a drive ..
Importantly - The brushing contact point, starts from the lower part of ball, with a loop, and with a drive, the contact point is on the center or top of the ball.
Loops typically create more of an arc, compared to drives..
When playing close to the table, I typically (and very rarely) use the (counter) drive, against loops.
On the rare occasion that I loop, and IF my loop is blocked, the next shot I will play (or at least try to) is a drive ..

pingpongpaddy
10-13-2021, 11:20 AM
I haven't posted on this thread so I will now.
I have a definition of sorts.
A looped ball will dive due to the Magnus effect.
Since all balls with top spin will dive a little bit, it is necessary to qualify my statement
The Magnus effect, this is the force that makes the ball dive or arc, is proportional to the spin times the speed or v*ω
where:
v is the velocity of the ball
ω is the spin in radians per second.
So spin and speed are required.
However, good loops are low over the net and
ω*r > v r is the radius of the ball.
This means the bottom surface speed of the ball is moving faster backwards than the ball is moving forwards. On contact the ball will push off the table resulting in more speed but losing some spin. The ball will jump out low at the opponent.

Too many people call anything with top spin a loop.
I recently posted a link to a Timo Boll video showing how he loops balls by waiting for them to drop between net and table height. He must hit the ball up a bit to get it over the net but that is good because the highest point in the trajectory should be at the net. Boll relies on the top spin to make the ball drop once the ball goes over the net. Yes, it takes some paddle speed and good timing to manage this.

Since the Magnus effect is proportional to v*ω it is easy to see that hitting through the ball will result in no spin and thinly brushing the ball will result in no or low speed. The ball should be hit in such a way to maximize v*ω. This can be calculated and optimized. That is what hard headed old fuddy-duddy engineers do. I forgot a few other adjectives.

Think Goldilocks, not to hard, not too soft, not to thin, not to thick, just right works best.
I just want to point out that while some low loops can be effective as explained by Timo Boll in a recent video, many that are low are weak and vulnerable to being punished for bad length. The basic good topspin lands deep near the end line which means a higher arc over the net . The depth of the shot is key in pushing the opponent back from a controlling position close to the table. I am sure that there are many occcasions when Boll is driving a ball that is not dropping, as it does not make sense to give his opponent time. However his excellent and unusual facility with spin allows him to play an effective shot, even when hindered by a dropping ball

pingpongpaddy
10-13-2021, 11:34 AM
This is my understanding, and please do correct me, cause I'm not sure if I'm right ..

With a drive, the focus is more on speed, rather than spin. The Opposite holds true, for Loop.
A drive is played with a quicker timing, and more compact stroke, and faster hand-speed. With a Loop, the timing could be a bit later, but the stroke is comparatively larger.
With a Loop, your racquet has to drop lower, compared to a drive ..
Importantly - The brushing contact point, starts from the lower part of ball, with a loop, and with a drive, the contact point is on the center or top of the ball.
Loops typically create more of an arc, compared to drives..
When playing close to the table, I typically (and very rarely) use the (counter) drive, against loops.
On the rare occasion that I loop, and IF my loop is blocked, the next shot I will play (or at least try to) is a drive ..


FFM
I like yr use of the term. but really you shouldnt worry about it as there are so many people using the terms loop and drive interchangeably. I can remember seeing the original loopers play, and they all saw the loop as a relativel high arcing shot and the drive as a more powerful stroke.
These days the original version of the shot would be blocked and counter driven with ease, and the new version needs to be and is fairly described. as a loop drive

antonymous
10-13-2021, 01:15 PM
This is my understanding, and please do correct me, cause I'm not sure if I'm right ..

Importantly - The brushing contact point, starts from the lower part of ball, with a loop, and with a drive, the contact point is on the center or top of the ball.


That is correct in general, but I don't think that's an accurate description. You can hit the ball at the center and still perform both a loop (if we don't restrict the term to coparatively slow and high-arc shot) and a drive. So for me the difference is not the contanct point per se, but rather the force vector. As loop has to send the ball along the arc, force vector has to be more upward comparing to a drive. The choice of contact point depends on the desired direction of force vector with respect to brushing effect. And the brushing effect is the consequence of applying the force in particular direction and at particular contact point. (Hope that makes sense, as I'm not a native English speaker.)In recent tutorial video series on backhand Lee Sang-su mentions that Korean terms differ from those of, as he called them, "ITTF". Koreans use the term "drive" instead of "loop". And if one watches "Ma Long's Instructional" video on YouTube, one can see him performing both forehand and backhand drive shot from different distances from the table (also in slow motion!).

I'm not sure I have enough experience, but I haven't yet heard the term "loop" here in Russia. As far as I know we just call the shot "topspin", without differentiatng the distance from the table (contrary to Korean terms, where "drive" is a shot away from the table, while "topspin" is in essence the same shot, but at the table) or the quality of the shot (slow high-arc vs. fast low-arc).

Gozo
10-14-2021, 03:09 AM
This is from a perspective of an amateur receiver ( pro-players does not apply ):

Drive / Duraibo: SH!T ! What happened? I could not see the ball coming. It is so fast.

Loop / Loopo: I saw the ball coming, I am in ready position ( In-Pai ) when I hit the ball but I still f3ckk1ng miss it. The ball just bounce in a funny way away from my swinging arm. I blame the table, it is not flat enough.

Hasna Haura Hayfa
10-15-2021, 07:16 AM
This is my understanding, and please do correct me, cause I'm not sure if I'm right ..

With a drive, the focus is more on speed, rather than spin. The Opposite holds true, for Loop.
A drive is played with a quicker timing, and more compact stroke, and faster hand-speed. With a Loop, the timing could be a bit later, but the stroke is comparatively larger.
With a Loop, your racquet has to drop lower, compared to a drive ..
Importantly - The brushing contact point, starts from the lower part of ball, with a loop, and with a drive, the contact point is on the center or top of the ball.
Loops typically create more of an arc, compared to drives..
When playing close to the table, I typically (and very rarely) use the (counter) drive, against loops.
On the rare occasion that I loop, and IF my loop is blocked, the next shot I will play (or at least try to) is a drive ..


 the question is, if we receive a solid underspin ball (From chopper), can we do a strong top spin, or should we loop

Funk Fu Master
10-15-2021, 07:47 AM
Âthe question is, if we receive a solid underspin ball (From chopper), can we do a strong top spin, or should we loop
I've always considered a loops to be a sub-set of top-spins .. Loops have a higher-arc .. Quite often, loop & top-spin are used interchangeably ..