Backhand rubber

[TareqPhoto]

Short pips - they make the learning curve easier. Try 802-40. It's like inverted but less spin reactive. It will help you understand what goes on with serves more easily.

I have this rubber in 1.5mm thickness, so from your post i think i should give it a try and see, but can you tell me if you have this rubber, which blade would you think to use it with on BH only?

 

[TareqPhoto]

On the flip side, using a very spin-reactive rubber from the beginning gets a player to pay more attention to reading and adjusting for spin, so there is more than one "Correct" answer.

I choose the BH I used for years, because I discovered I could make my own bat speed and bat acceleration regardless of what rubber I slapped on it. So I went for control (and value). You can't beat $8 a sheet for a rubber that is controllable, spinny enough, and lasts 3 months on Der_Echte's bat even if he plays 4+ hrs a day.

I could have done just as well with a much more expensive or modern rubber, but after trial and not so much error, I discovered for myself I really needed CONTROL rubber for BH wing.

The Germans discover same thing and loved Magic Carbon back in the day, even on FH wing, but many liked it on BH. That is one of the timeless rubbers ever made, almost pure control and little power. (I mean overwhelming kind of power)

You know, i think all my blade and rubbers are great, but it is just i go with not perfect combo, for example a slow blade with fast rubber, or a fast blade with slow rubber on one side, or 2 rubbers very hard or fast both with fast blade, so to some degrees i lose either the speed or the control, so i can't have that much consistent playing, but my main blade that i use now which is DHS HH3 with Tenergy 05/05FX[FH/BH] giving me almost best performance between the two, but still that rubber is sensitive for incoming spinney serve, and i am not planning to take off this rubber yet from this blade, one day i will think to use it again on this blade, so i am thinking to buy a blade that is similar to HH3 cheap [PG series] and use same rubber or even another good one for FH such as Tibhar MP-X, and use another rubber on BH either short pips or something that is not sensitive to the spins, as long i liked that HH3 blade and amazing FH rubber then i shouldn't try something completely different to fix something, but do you think PG with another FH rubber cheaper will not be in same class as HH3 and T05 FH?

 

[TareqPhoto]

Maybe the xiom musa can help you.

But to be honest I think it won't solve the problem. The only way to get rid of it is a better technique/understanding.

I can say service and service return is one of my strengths and I'll try to give you some basic tips. It's difficult to give more specific and advanced tips because I don't know how you play or with which services you struggle. A video of you would help. I really believe basic receiving is not so difficult. Yes, of course high-level receiving is one of the most difficult parts of the game since the server has all the time of the world to make the stroke.

As I said, I don't know what your level is right now so I'll start with some very fundamental tips.
1. Return to where the movement starts. For example: If the opponent does a BH serve from right -> left you must return to the right side of the table otherwise the ball will go off the table. (Of course at higher levels the players can manipulate this. Just watch Ovtcharov's BH serve to understand what I say. He can make a sideway movement in the beginning but contact the ball with a forward movement underneath the ball. -> backspin serve. So at higher levels you should watch the movement when he/she contacts the ball.
2. If he/she does a upward movement, it's topspin. A downward movement -> backspin. (Again, at higher levels they can manipulate this. For example Werner Schlager does the opposite. Here he explains this:

)
3. Easiest way to return a long topspin-sidespin serve: block to where the movement starts.
Easiest way to return a long/short backspin(-sidespin) serve: push (to where the movement starts.)
4. The first set is very important: here you try to reveal his different serves. It's normal you'll miss a few/lot of serves in the first set. Analyse carefully your mistakes/misreads!!!!! If a ball pops up high, it means that you pushed on a topspin or nospin ball. If the ball goes in the net, you should open your racket angle a bit more.
5.Last remedy: when nothing works and you keep misreading the service, just take a step back and chop with lots of backspin!!

These are only the very basic tips to reduce the faults of your own. Once you mastered this, you can try to make a strength of it. -> give difficult balls back so the server cannot attack or even misses the ball.

I left your post to the last, thank you very much for this detailed post and the video too.

Well, sometimes just returning serves is not everything, i can easily just push the balls high if i want to return all the serves, but this means i just give almost 90% chance to the opponent to win the point, and i do return some or few serves too, but not good enough return, so it means i don't know how to deal with spinney serves to my BH, and i see many like to serve to the BH side, even i love to serve to their BH and some of them struggle with it too, so it is like we both use same weapon to each other, but i play with some players who use pips out or slower or less sensitive to spins rubber so it will be likely i will have the problem only, it means even they didn't manage or read how to return spinney serve, but i don't want to depend on just i win my serves and they win theirs, but it is almost they somehow win my serves and i lose their serves, they use less sensitive rubbers, as when i tested few of their i could manage to return spinney serves better, so technique is a must but this is a long term and long learning curve, while i will reach that level to return spinney serves to my BH i will be losing too many games un-necessary, i can't go to practice everyday as the place is not nearby and i don't go there more often, so the practice will take so long time if i start and i don't keep it more often.

I think as long i saw some rubbers can solve this problem even temporarily, it is better to give it a try, and i can also practice with this rubber too, i may train harder how to return serves, but i think even others will work harder to do serves properly then what i can do? i may work harder to use my FH great enough for loop, but sure there are who can beat my best perfect loops too, then what i can do? there are always someone who is better than you or work harder than you or practice more than you, so if i don't practice much enough which is the case even if i want, then i should look for alternative temporary solution until the time comes when i can practice in daily/weekly basis.

 

[NextLevel]

I have this rubber in 1.5mm thickness, so from your post i think i should give it a try and see, but can you tell me if you have this rubber, which blade would you think to use it with on BH only?

I used it in 1.8mm a few years agp. IMO, blade is not affected by rubber so much that you should change your blade to use a rubber except you have a preferred setup speed. Just use it on the backhand of anything. It reacts less to spin so it allows you to be a bit more aggressive in trying certain kinds of strokes to affect the spin of the serve.

 

[TareqPhoto]

I used it in 1.8mm a few years agp. IMO, blade is not affected by rubber so much that you should change your blade to use a rubber except you have a preferred setup speed. Just use it on the backhand of anything. It reacts less to spin so it allows you to be a bit more aggressive in trying certain kinds of strokes to affect the spin of the serve.

Good to hear, i have one blade or 2 i want to try this rubber on it, and definitely i will use it on BH only.

Thank you very much!

 

[TareqPhoto]

Well, here is a blade i am thinking to assemble sooner than later, not sure which rubber out of 4 below i should use for BH on this blade, what do you suggest/recommend?

The blade:

The rubbers:

This blade will be as a test standard blade as N-11, even i like faster another blades more, and i can use this blade in training if i want or as an emergency if an offensive blade is out of help [or out of control, hehehe LOL].

 

[Suga D]

Der Echte is quite right, when he mentioned "there is more than one correct answer" like this:

On the flip side, using a very spin-reactive rubber from the beginning gets a player to pay more attention to reading and adjusting for spin, so there is more than one "Correct" answer.

I choose the BH I used for years, because I discovered I could make my own bat speed and bat acceleration regardless of what rubber I slapped on it. So I went for control (and value). You can't beat $8 a sheet for a rubber that is controllable, spinny enough, and lasts 3 months on Der_Echte's bat even if he plays 4+ hrs a day.

I could have done just as well with a much more expensive or modern rubber, but after trial and not so much error, I discovered for myself I really needed CONTROL rubber for BH wing.

it may be a little harder in the beginning, and might get a bit frustrating, ´cause it´s normal to miss a lot of hits in the beginning, but once you understand spin and spin revearsal and are able to read it (to a certain level) things (serve Returns) will get much easier.

But so is Next Level, too:

Short pips - they make the learning curve easier. Try 802-40. It's like inverted but less spin reactive. It will help you understand what goes on with serves more easily.

Playin´ with pips (also if it´s just for a while) could give you the confidence to return more aggressively. Just keep tryin´ out what you like the most.

Well, misunderstanding happens everywhere even in the best families.

About your reply here, actually i wasn't looking for a rubber to create spin, i want a rubber that can kill or return spin effectively without creating another spin, i don't depends on spin for my return, i can general spin with my forehand, but when i return or using my BH i don't use spin anyway, so i wasn't asking about a rubber to return spinney serve with spin.

Also, you statement is right, the second time i had the training with our coach who told me about how to read the serves and how to return it, but honestly speaking, the return wasn't perfect at all and even he didn't said that the return is wrong or not good, because all returns i managed to do were very easy for attack or for opponent to finish, but he never said about it, but i saw that and i know if someone returned as i did then i can smash him easily, so maybe he didn't want to teach me how to return properly, and i don't want to return serves to have another losing points, it will be almost equal to get the balls off the table, but maybe all will say to return it is better than nothing or off table, also i am not always focusing on the balls to red every serve, sometimes they surprise me, so i was thinking about a rubber that can help manage the spin of serves so i can focus on another things.

Once i move to my house and buy a table i will ask about a robot that can create heavy spin balls so i can practice on that at home, but it is still early to talk about it.

And sorry again if i misunderstood your posts before.

No need to be sorry, it could have also been my misunderstandable comments. Next time, i´ll try to make it clearer in the first place. ;-)

What also could be helpful is learning to serve spinful and short yourself. That is what helped me a lot, when i had problems returning serves as a beginner. I had the luck to have a friend who played for the german national junior and cadets Team. He taught me a thing or two.
In the beginning when we first started playing matches against each other he gave me 18 handicap Points (the games were played to 21 to that time) which made me lead 18:0. And in the beginning sometimes i lost 18:21 or 19:21 I could almost get none of his serves. But after a while i figured to be returning them better from time to time. After a while he would only give me 15 handicap Points and a little later even only 10... but it took a Little while to get there. And then it was pretty much like JulienB mentioned: My weak spots became my good skills...

But don´t get it twisted: even highest Level Players have sometimes problems reading the spin right everytime. Just a couple a days ago someone quoted Timo Boll that sometimes he only could guess what kinda spin was coming in from waldner´s serves... So... ;-)

But that would be another reason to learn how to serve well, since it is the only stroke you make that isn´t being influenced by your opponent...
Just keep on, Buddy

 

[NextLevel]

The racket head speed you need to return serves aggressively is the same racket head speed you need to generate good spin. That's one of the reason why it pays to learn good short spin serves - so you can use similar motions/strokes to return good spin serves.

Without those strokes, most of the time, you will be trying to return serves by just sticking out your paddle but this is the wrong approach, especially with inverted. You need to return serves with a spin stroke to increase your margin. Inverted reacts too much to spin and guessing exactly what is on the serve so you can return it with touch usually leads to predictable third ball opportunities for your opponents. But if you don't have the wrist/stroke acceleration to do it confidently, you are asking for trouble.

 

[TareqPhoto]

Ok, thank you very much!

I will see what i can do, but i forgot to tell that many players are not playing with rules, i mean they hide the serves even in those tournaments, and they play the serve quick, so that don't give me time to read the serves quite good, and i have to return quickly, if i keep standing to think about the spin rotation direction or the speed of the serve or whatever then my reaction will be slow, also they don't play to my BH side all of the serves, but they prefer mostly but not always, so i have to know to where they will serve, in fact, they don't give me time to think and see their serve, i thought this illegal, but if they don't follow the rule then even if i try to break this rule it will not give me the win too, i try to keep within the rule.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I think there have been lots of good posts. So what I am going to say has sort of been covered.

What rubber you choose is open to your own choice. However, whatever rubber you choose, if you find someone who is higher level than you who likes you, and get him to serve to you and show you how to return each serve, your return of serve will get better faster than if you keep just playing games.

But what you are talking about is part of why so many of us recommended an ALL+ to Off- blade with control rubbers for starting. Just part of why.

There are many choices you could make from here. But practicing return of serve so you can make a variety of returns on any given serve is very valuable.

And return of serve is one of those make or break skills that separate different level players. With better serve and receive skills your level automatically goes up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Der_Echte]

Tareq could always slap on a sheet of Super Block on BH... it would be a riot and no one in his area carries the Authorized list around with them and who cares what some one uses in an amature TT hall that is not an official sanctioned event anywayz?

 

[TareqPhoto]

Good, thank you very much!

In practice the story is different, in practice i do strokes that i never dream about, even can do rally for 5-6 swaps, and even serves are good, it is like if i count the practice i do with many opponents then at least i can reach the semi final then, but when i play games, all of that is gone, no good serves, no good return, no rally, even they keep chopping suddenly, so it is like they change their style of playing and they way of serve or tactics or whatever, and with stress it adds to why i can't return the serves good enough, but i don't count on practice as it never tells the real level of anyone, even those high level players sounds they lose in practice and at the end they reach finals or win tours.

Anyway, i will try hard to find a serious honest opponent who can practice with me so i can learn how to do some things to get improved, and there is one player who keep serving that kind of serves in practice, but even if i know how to read and return his serve it will be like i lost 6-8 points already, and even if i try again also i lose some points before i can return good enough, but sounds i need to keep practicing on the correct way of returning rather than return by luck few serves.

Again, i would like to try with rubbers as this can make life easier a bit, i will have time to practice on returning serves sooner or later, but until that time i want to be able to do now whenever i play games with those heavy spin servers.

 

[Der_Echte]

Maybe Tareq doesn't understand what Super Block is... the most infamous SLIPPERY OX LP rubber ever manufactured.

Players who had ZERO bh, could suddenly just stick their bat out, get a half-azz correct bat angle, soften it a bit for a stronger (faster) ball, and VOILLA !!! They returned a ball and it troubled a LOT of the amature crowd.

Many amatures, often junior kids who were totally clueless of reading teh spin or how to control it would take their toys and go home. PARENTS of these kids were worse and beat the band to high heavens complaining about how traumatized thier kids became not being able to cope with their own spin coming back so easily...

The worst crowd were the 40-60 year old crowd who started TT in that age span... They cried enough about Super Block to provide 100 years of water for the Jazz standard "Cry me a River"

The era where Super Block was an authorized rubber (and a great equalizer for the clinically incompetent BH or for those to fat and slow to move more than 10 centimeters in any direction) ... Haha those were some crazy days accross TT halls everywhere.

Kids who trained like SJ's cadre of RobotNazzzzis could cope with those bang-bang drive to drive rallies close to the table and love it, but when faced with a slower pace and strange looking/acting ball, they would fold like a paper napkin under the "pressure" of Super Block and want to go jump off Brooklyn Bridge in shame.

Haha what days TT had back then and that is the history of that rubber and why I jokingly/seriously suggested to try using it. Why the heck not? it is just an amature TT hall where no one is playing the "real" TT and serious high stakes state/regional/national tourneys where something is actually on the line.

That is why i liked Korean amature TT, they didn't give a hoot about what ITTF demanded or arbitrarily made rules that should apply to only pros, but get copy/pasted everywhere. They had their own way to play TT and enjoy it.

Everyone should find a way to stay in Korea for a month or more and love it.

 

[Der_Echte]

On another different note, I just finished a 3 hr session playing at a friend's seminary Uni rec room. He is a little below average US club average player (USA amature club level average median is 1400-1500ish)

His friend is above average, prolly 1700-1750 USATT level, which is 3 levels better than my friend.

I played 4 matches vs my friend's friend and my friend's friend has zero clue how to receive my serves... and this isn't your average weak player. He is a strong player at least 1-1.5 levels better than the average USA club median player. I did whatever I wanted vs him on serve. Get him to net the serve - check. Get him to pop it up on a short topspin serve -check. Get him to hit out vs fast deep topspin serve - check. Get him to give me a weak ball to my BH on a short no-spin serve, then power BH it to impact against his stomach to leave a mark - check.

I say this to say that someone who is a way higher level player will fool you on serve anyway, even if your playing standard is good. If the player has practiced serves a lot, then they will fool more players equal and lower level like I just did.

It doesn't necessarily require an easy receiving rubber on BH to play the sport. I crushed so many weak returns my opponent had to dive under the table to avoid getting hit.

My point being is take Ur lumps with the rubber you select for your overall game, learn, grow, and drive on. Damn what ITTF or what jokers like me say on the forums. Do what is right for your game and be part of the decision.

 

[TareqPhoto]

To be honest, i think i really should go a bit lower or slower with rubber, i said i don't have problems with the blade and FH rubber, but sounds my BH rubber is still hard or fast, maybe i should give another rubber a try, i may buy another DHS HH3 blade at that lower price and put same FH rubber but i will put a slower more controllable rubber then i will call it a day, practice will have its rule one day, but for now i should not give them easy points because i am not trained well for spinney serves to my BH, and i know how to block, but even with that most of the time the balls either high out of the table or high enough to the opponent side where he is waiting it to kill.

Anyway, sounds no much talking about rubbers now and only pointing me to practice way, ok, got it, thanks!

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

In practice the story is different

I don't think you understood what I meant by practice. Game simulation drills. But, all of what you are describing is that players can see your weaknesses and in games they just keep giving you thinks you are week on. If in just rallying with someone, they hit it so you can hit it back, that makes sense. But in a game they will try to hit it so you can't hit it back. That is how games work.

Game simulation means you are trying to get the other player to hit to you like he is trying to win the point and exactly the way he would in a game. If you get a better player to serve his best serves to you and tell you what you are doing wrong when you try to return them, and what you should do to try and return them, you will start getting better. Someone enough better than you that they are not thinking that you are just trying to learn how to beat them.

 

[TareqPhoto]

I don't think you understood what I meant by practice. Game simulation drills. But, all of what you are describing is that players can see your weaknesses and in games they just keep giving you thinks you are week on. If in just rallying with someone, they hit it so you can hit it back, that makes sense. But in a game they will try to hit it so you can't hit it back. That is how games work.

Game simulation means you are trying to get the other player to hit to you like he is trying to win the point and exactly the way he would in a game. If you get a better player to serve his best serves to you and tell you what you are doing wrong when you try to return them, and what you should do to try and return them, you will start getting better. Someone enough better than you that they are not thinking that you are just trying to learn how to beat them.

Ah ok, say game simulation so i can understand better.

Well, i play games simulations, but in those games no one teach others anything, sometimes they repeat some points or don't count 1 point or 2 just for fun, but none are willing to teach others anything either win or lose, even the coach when he plays with some players he doesn't teach what is right or wrong until they take coaching paid with him.

I hope i can find someone who is kind enough to teach me what's wrong if i play against him and lose, but my only chance that i will fight for is to find a more nearby club where they adopt only citizens like me and teach us either free or by paying, because i am registered to a table tennis academy which is open for all members any nationals with payment, while the official clubs some are having table tennis only for locals or citizens and they have coaches, and they try to train them to be in the national team or for some tours, in the club in my city, the coach teaches locals and non locals kids only, but adults he teaches only locals and he welcomes me to join but he is too busy teaching in different places in very short time.

Well, my other option is to use my other blades where i have different rubbers, maybe i will have few great for returning, if i will wait someone to teach me while i am playing with him i may wait very long, so better to do something now than to wait very long, or better i never play against those strong higher level or skilled opponents then.

Can you direct me to videos where someone serve very low spinney to the left side of BH and showing how the opponent return those kind of serves without pips out rubbers? serves to the left wing of the receiver low spinney or heavy spin, not the long fast ones.

 

[Kaizoku]

Can you direct me to videos where someone serve very low spinney to the left side of BH and showing how the opponent return those kind of serves without pips out rubbers? serves to the left wing of the receiver low spinney or heavy spin, not the long fast ones.

Vladimir Samsonov?
And yes, TZU is an amazing fh rubber imo. P7 (yea adidas) probably wont do much compared to pimples out, just, for when you can manage the technuiqe with invertert, P7 is amazing on the bh despite the fact it's a bit hard. The ONLY pro jp-03 has over P7 is the slightly lesser need for a good technique because it's soft sponge it's so easy to redirect the ball. But I'd say P7 is easier than any Tenergy for example. And the spin is more beast on P7 vs jp-03

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

SERVE AND RECEIVE DRILLS ARE GAME SIMULATION. If you think you are doing serve and receive drills and they do not, have some real semblance to game play they are not serve and receive drills.

The drill I suggested was you have someone much better than you serve his best serves to you. Ones you can't get on the table. And you have him tell you what you need to do to get them on the table and then what you need to do to make the returns more effective and harder to handle.

DO SERVE AND RECIEVE DRILLS.

GAME SIMULATION DOES NOT MEAN GAMES. YOU DO NOT COUNT POINTS. GAME SIMULATION MEANS CREATING THE CIRCUMSTANCE OF A GAME AND PRACTICING DOING THE RIGHT TECHNIQUE.

 

[Killerspintt]

Tareq, why don't you practice it ? I mean it seems you have mates able to put you in difficulties with their serves into your BH. Why don't you train with them ? This is the best way to improve.