Rebulding Fundamental strokes for my game play

[UpSideDownCarl]

It's like trying to drive a car at 160kmph before you learn how to steer the wheel.

This is actually an amazingly good analogy.



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[UpSideDownCarl]

Anyway, I will try to keep it short.

Siva, I think this actually represents GREAT progress. You are using the upper arm much LESS than you were before. This is a big improvement.

I think the comments where people are telling you you need to get the upper arm to move even less are correct, but these videos show you are trying to sort out how to do that. That first step is really not easy. So, good work.

The one thing I would say is, don't go for big shots yet. Make it relaxed. Don't worry about the body or other things. Don't even worry if the ball lands on the table. Just try to spin the ball with your forearm being the only part of your arm that is moving for both strokes. So if you rested your forearm on a table it would not move. Like Ariel Hsin's forehand fixing machine is strapped to your arm and your elbow can't move foreword or back at all.

That is just to start. Once you really get that feeling then you start adding the body back in.




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[Shuki]

Like Ariel Hsin's forehand fixing machine is strapped to your arm and your elbow can't move foreword or back at all.

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I've been wondering for a while if this is something available for purchase anywhere or if it has to be home made. Has anyone seen something like this?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I've been wondering for a while if this is something available for purchase anywhere or if it has to be home made. Has anyone seen something like this?

Ariel clearly made her own. Nobody has marketed an item like that. But all it is is a belt and an exercise band. No need to buy one. You make it.


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[Archosaurus]

Carl is right in saying the first step is not easy. Being a player without a coach or expert partner, I know this well.

I still remember what I had been doing with my arm for nearly two years when I decided to take a good look at my technique. Now it's extremely obvious what was wrong and I can do the stroke correctly, but back then, I just couldn't figure it out. Whatever I did my arm didn't move correctly and nothing felt right.

Without a coach, this is kinda tough when you have no idea. So it will take some time, bashing your head into the wall, but if you keep at it for some months and be very honest in your self-analysis and listen to the people who know without being stubborn, it will happen and you will improve a lot.

Hell, it's even possible that you will do a more correct stroke, but it will feel wrong so you will go back to your old ways. Just keep at it: the body needs to adapt to the unfamiliar feelings.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

Shoulder/core rotation is good, use of the arms can be improved. You are trying to drive the ball rather than learn to spin it slowly first. It's like trying to drive a car at 160kmph before you learn how to steer the wheel.

Start with the loop that Sean O Neill demonstrated. Learn to use the arm to spin the ball first. Then you can move on to this kind of stroke. I will find the video for you.

You asked questions couple of questions about shots that you missed in your doubles match. Part of the reason you missed those shots was that you were making drive contact not spin contact. Let's get your spin contact on the right footing first. You are a talented server so if you work at this and use the arm properly you will get great results in no time. You just have to be willing to go through the steps.

First of all thanks for taking some time to help me by sharing the first video above, that is new to me. Though you shared the second video already, the first 13 seconds speaks about the problems I face after the first session which focussed on improvement. It is valuable and could help me to set my mind back into the right attitude before the next practice session

Shoulder/core rotation is good, use of the arms can be improved. You are trying to drive the ball rather than learn to spin it slowly first.

Thanks for coming back on some improvements. To work on more spinny balls, what kind of drill is ideal. Should I use the same one but with less power. Is that what you mean? Ah you mean like in the first video. There seems to be less spin in that one right?

Part of the reason you missed those shots was that you were making drive contact not spin contact.

I couldn't understand it fully but I will try. Before that I would like to clear the difference between How I look at Loop and Drive.
Loop - The spinny ones used to counter low spinny backspins much like the third ball attack. It could be slow or fast.
Drive - The much faster ones which contain ample amount of speed and spin coupled along with full body extensions.

Is it right or did I patzed it again?

If this is right, do you want me to concentrate on the ones like Ma long does in this video below

You are a talented server so if you work at this and use the arm properly you will get great results in no time

Thanks mate I will work on some elements discussed in these threads to undoing the wrong practices. During my practices from the last year, i had done enough on basic strokes. But, due to the infeasibility on availability of the coaches, I trained wrongly. Now is the time to set it back as well.

When you spoke about pain on shoulder, it was indeed right. After yesterday's practice, I had very less pain today. I just uploaded some videos on my yesterday's training from other camera angle. This could give a better view on other elements of the play as well. Further, I would like to know what do you think about those flip and touch practice videos which I will upload soon as well. Thanks for commenting, I appreciate it.

 

[Shuki]

Carl is right in saying the first step is not easy. Being a player without a coach or expert partner, I know this well.

I still remember what I had been doing with my arm for nearly two years when I decided to take a good look at my technique. Now it's extremely obvious what was wrong and I can do the stroke correctly, but back then, I just couldn't figure it out. Whatever I did my arm didn't move correctly and nothing felt right.

Without a coach, this is kinda tough when you have no idea. So it will take some time, bashing your head into the wall, but if you keep at it for some months and be very honest in your self-analysis and listen to the people who know without being stubborn, it will happen and you will improve a lot.

Hell, it's even possible that you will do a more correct stroke, but it will feel wrong so you will go back to your old ways. Just keep at it: the body needs to adapt to the unfamiliar feelings.

You're all the way up to 2 years already? for some reason I thought you'd been playing less than that. Helpful post for the most part.

The only suggestion I could give in changing your stroke is to NOT play games.

When completely revamping a stroke, for me it was my backhand which was always too upward of a motion, playing games and hitting that backhand wrong and knowing you hit it wrong, and even knowing what to do correctly simply isn't enough. Since you don't know when the next backhand will come to work on doing the stroke correctly you have to rely on reflexes for the stroke, which isn't what you're going for, you're going for changing the stroke. So you need to expect the ball there and tell yourself to do a stroke differently in order to get that stroke to hold.

I remember when my coach and I were working on changing my backhand she told me not to play games, I didn't quite see why but I KIND OF understood. I played games anyway. Next lesson we started going over my backhand and working on it some more and she said "OH NOOO, YOU'VE BEEN PLAYING GAMES"
All the progress I had made was lost because of the games and it reverting back to it's old ways.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

My entire session videos in a random order

Backhand practise session from the front side with slomo. I hope this gives some idea on my posture as well

Forehand from the front side with slomo. I believe after the first three strokes, my upper arm movement has reduced, what do you think. For next session, I will cocentrate on preventing the elbow movement and upper arm movement reduction first on backhand

I jugaaded a wooden table to fit as a return board. Kind of helped. But, This is a measure of whether I progressed or not. Would like to know your opinon on it. I was shirtless for sometime because my jersey got drenched in sweat, not to be taken as offensive.

The fast ones with the return board

Touch practice for receives. My own system, what do you think. Is there a better way to train alone on these things.

These are the most horrible ones of the practice. It seems I suck at those flips. Take the last three as a measure for the review.

I just backspinned the ball to create top spin and attack on them. The ideas was to locate and create a real life scenario but on slowmotion, LOL.

 

[Archosaurus]

You're getting it. Stroke is still too big, but you're getting it.

Slow down, and relax. Keep your back neutral, slightly leaned forward without arching it at any part, and just rotate. Try to take away the unnecessary movements of the body for now and fix them up later.

Otherwise, good job. Pretty good improvement: you're listening. And good that you have less pain. But, I will let the experts say anything further.

@Shuki it's only a few more months to my two year anniversary.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

Anyway, I will try to keep it short.

Siva, I think this actually represents GREAT progress. You are using the upper arm much LESS than you were before. This is a big improvement.

I think the comments where people are telling you you need to get the upper arm to move even less are correct, but these videos show you are trying to sort out how to do that. That first step is really not easy. So, good work.

The one thing I would say is, don't go for big shots yet. Make it relaxed. Don't worry about the body or other things. Don't even worry if the ball lands on the table. Just try to spin the ball with your forearm being the only part of your arm that is moving for both strokes. So if you rested your forearm on a table it would not move. Like Ariel Hsin's forehand fixing machine is strapped to your arm and your elbow can't move foreword or back at all.

That is just to start. Once you really get that feeling then you start adding the body back in.




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Thanks Carl, It seems to me as well. This is the first time I am learning from the wisdom of others. When I got those strokes from elbow pivot, I already forgot my past years of game. I felt going from 0 to 1. Such a beauty in learning.

For the first time, I get to look at the efficency of movement and how it defines the talent in sport. Technique seems to be very important to progress.

I think everyone spoke about being relaxed. But, actually I was completely jacked up, kept cussing violently when I practiced. That is my style of training, so go to Zen mode is kind of hard. Let's see next time on how relaxed those strokes are. I will take my backhand video of the last thread as reference since you mentioned it last time.

Just try to spin the ball with your forearm being the only part of your arm that is moving for both strokes. So if you rested your forearm on a table it would not move.

Seems like a good hack. Definitely would be on my implementation goal next time. I ll try an exercise keeping the elbow rested on table for backhand. For forehand really hard.

Next project is to setup that arm band.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

i see, but what is shown here are not fundamentals. here you are performing an advanced stroke in a situation that is unrealistically simple. in match play you will never have a ball that bounces straight up with no spin deep on your side.

if you really want to rebuild your technique start from the actual fundamentals. if you want to improve train those fundamentally basic strokes in tougher scenarios (more complex footwork, faster tempo...). only after you get proficient at this, should you start adding more spin into play, and after that comes the combination of spin and speed (loop driving).

Agreed. To provide me some work I did some training sessions against my own return board(Table Inverted) and some spin exercise to create some randomness on the ball. Please take a look at next page, where I have linked all videos. In my opinion, I am kind of above average with footwork cos of my previous badminton and basketball experiences. But, the other main factors would be opponents return and speed. But, I hope if I got into the right position already, that would probably be a good stroke.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Well, I am glad you understood what meant with the image of resting the elbow on the table, even though I wrote "resting the forearm on the table".

But don't do that. Just do the stroke so that you are not doing anything else. You could even be bolt upright. Just do the stroke so the elbow does not move only the forearm. If you do that with the self hitting thing, the self hitting thing will have some usefulness.


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[Siva Schopenhauer]

Well, I am glad you understood what meant with the image of resting the elbow on the table, even though I wrote "resting the forearm on the table".

But don't do that. Just do the stroke so that you are not doing anything else. You could even be bolt upright. Just do the stroke so the elbow does not move only the forearm. If you do that with the self hitting thing, the self hitting thing will have some usefulness.


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Well, I am glad you understood what meant with the image of resting the elbow on the table, even though I wrote "resting the forearm on the table".

Ha Ha, in writing there is always atleast one way to be misconstrued na.

Yes, Carl I ll work on the upper arm and elbow movement reduction as the prime forcus. As youall said, I ll try to keep the body and stroke as relaxed as ball.

I would like to give myself one more run for the money in regards to Fast strokes during the next session but slowing down. Would like to take it down from there

 

[Der_Echte]

One more run for the money??? Dude, you got Ur whole TT life in front of you. Sometimes you gotta experience failure a lot to move up.

You post a lot of stories and pic on this site. That is the bread and butter of this website. Keep plugging away dude.

 

[Hamasaki_Fanz]

get a standard-height table before you practice further..

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

One more run for the money??? Dude, you got Ur whole TT life in front of you. Sometimes you gotta experience failure a lot to move up.

You post a lot of stories and pic on this site. That is the bread and butter of this website. Keep plugging away dude.

Thanks mate for your support. It seem really flattering and i am losing my hold on the ground

I ll try to work hard and keep up with the work I am doing.

I have some questions about who are the members of goon squad and what do you think about the beloved dictator Kim?

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

get a standard-height table before you practice further..

What is the problem with the height of this table? It was produced by some well known brand in Germany

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

@Carl, What did you think about the videos which I uploaded from the side view. Is there something to work related to postures and movement when looked from this angle?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

@Carl, What did you think about the videos which I uploaded from the side view. Is there something to work related to postures and movement when looked from this angle?

If you draw a line from your chest, vertically down to your feet, your chest should be a little forward of your toes. In both the BH and FH videos, it looks like your chest is over your arches or even further back like over your ankles.

This is Matthew Suchy. He is a 2600 level player from Poland. In this photo he is just giving a lesson to an older woman which means he is much more upright than he normally would be. All he is doing is putting the ball back for the woman. But, even though he is more upright than he would be in a regular match, if you draw a vertical line down from his chest, he is still forward of his feet.

Compare that to you in the video. Are you forward enough?




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[Siva Schopenhauer]

If you draw a line from your chest, vertically down to your feet, your chest should be a little forward of your toes. In both the BH and FH videos, it looks like your chest is over your arches or even further back like over your ankles.

This is Matthew Suchy. He is a 2600 level player from Poland. In this photo he is just giving a lesson to an older woman which means he is much more upright than he normally would be. All he is doing is putting the ball back for the woman. But, even though he is more upright than he would be in a regular match, if you draw a vertical line down from his chest, he is still forward of his feet.

Compare that to you in the video. Are you forward enough?




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I ll try to adapt to a much forward posture as well in the next session. Thanks for the feedback.