Asians vs Europeans

[RajaLoopah]

This question has been boggling me many times now. Which ball is spinnier? the ones produced by Asians? or Europeans?
Let the battle begin

 

[Yecats Encerwal]

This question has been boggling me many times now. Which ball is spinnier? the ones produced by Asians? or Europeans?
Let the battle begin

If I had to guess It would be Asians as they tend to use tackier rubbers that create more spin. However I do not think this Is something that can be generalised by continent, it is specific to every player. If you are talking spin on serves you get someone like Ovtcharov who's serves are ridiculously spinny but at the same time there's Kenta Matsudaira or Ma Lin who both have tremendously spinny serves. In Match play it is very hard to tell. The Chinese forehand involves more shoulder and a longer reach which increases speed, but throw some wrist in there and you have tons of spin also. I think UpsideDownCarl Is the spinniest player on the planet judging by his slogan "spin everything"

 

[ttmonster]

My understanding is that that highest level ( which obviously means the chinese national team ) , spin and power go hand in hand , except there are two ways to generate both , using the incoming spin and power of the incoming ball ( Ma Long , Fang Bo ) , using their own power to create spin and power ( Zhang Jike, FZD , XX ) .
From what I have read else where , CNT members say that Timo Boll can generate as much spin as them but not as much power, Obtcharov can generate as much power as them but not as much spin ....

Figure out the rest ....

 

[RajaLoopah]

Interesting insights, someone defend the Europeans oi haha

 

[Baal]

I don't think it is so simple.

 

[Yecats Encerwal]

Interesting insights, someone defend the Europeans oi haha

Its difficult to defend table tennis Europeans when they constantly get beaten by Asia! (With some exceptions of course)

 

[RajaLoopah]

Its difficult to defend table tennis Europeans when they constantly get beaten by Asia! (With some exceptions of course)

But there ate times when the balls of Chinese players retracted hahaha
(Gardos vs FZD, Ma Long vs Flore, Ma Long vs Hachard)

 

[ttpshot]

I'd say Africans, or should I say Aruna!

 

[RajaLoopah]

I'd say Africans, or should I say Aruna!

Lol I forgot Aruuuuna

 

[Baal]

I think the whole thread is a bit simplistic to tell you the truth. More spin? On what shots? Also, why would one think all Asians (or even Chinese) and all Europeans have the same quality of shots? Which Europeans? Which Chinese? Do Xu Xin and FZD play much alike? (I think they are completely different players). Sometimes it is hard to tell if a shot is successful because of the spin or speed or combination.

Clearly the top tier of Chinese are better than everyone else (hard to say how far down that tier goes because a lot of great CNT players don't play internationally much).

Why are they better? Is it spin? Speed? Footwork? Strength?

Or is it that because of the incredible hours they put in with constant coaching against always the best competition in the world, and constant Darwinian selection from a young age -- which means that they are just a little bit better at EVERY single phase of the game than the top Europeans? That is my guess. Spin in and of itself doesn't mean a lot with out placement, tactics, balance, etc. etc. Does a tacky rubber always generate more spin? Wouldn't rule it out, but hard to say for sure. But it is hard to separate that from everything else. And it is hard to tell by just watching video in real time.

Would European players submit to the kind of training CNT players are subjected to? For that matter, is it even possible for them considering the league schedules they have to maintain to get paid. (the answer is no). And even if there was a place to do it, and a financial way for them to do it, would even that matter without the constant high-level competition that Chinese players have? And the rest of the infrastructure?

That's why I find threads like this kind of pointless. Maybe I am just grumpy.

 

[Archosaurus]

Last time I checked, ethnicity doesn't have that much to do with how much spin you produce.

 

[Yecats Encerwal]

Last time I checked, ethnicity doesn't have that much to do with how much spin you produce.

It doesn't, however I think the original post was more to do with techniques. Its undeniable that the Chinese have a different technique to Europeans (its been talked about a lot) and I think that is closer to the point of the thread. Perhaps it was worded poorly.

 

[Archosaurus]

Yecats, I noticed.

However thinking that the Asians are just somehow superior to Europeans because they're Asians will guarantee that we will never, ever see another Waldner or Persson.

 

[Baal]

It doesn't, however I think the original post was more to do with techniques. Its undeniable that the Chinese have a different technique to Europeans (its been talked about a lot) and I think that is closer to the point of the thread. Perhaps it was worded poorly.

It was but which Asian technique? Or even, which Chinese technique?

 

[Yecats Encerwal]

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?10480-European-Loop-vs-Chinese-Loop

Well its common for people to refer to the Chinese technique as different to the European technique, I am not a coach but I know there have been many threads about this before, perhaps someone can provide more information on this. There is a thread on it which I have linked above.

All I am saying is I think this thread was worded badly and he is just referring to the two different "stereotypical" playstyles. There is no harmful intent.

I could be wrong of course...

As to whether the thread is pointless, that Is your opinion, however I don't think its a nice thing to say to someone who is just creating conversation on a forum.

 

[Yecats Encerwal]

Archo,

I don't think anyone stated that Asians are "superior" because they are Asians, however it is hard to deny that currently they do dominate the table tennis scene other than a few exceptions (Ovtcharov, Samsonov, Boll etc..). If anything this provides more motivation for other continents to provide a challenge, breaking such dominance would be a remarkable achievement. The fact that the players I listed have proved themselves at this level is inspiring for others.

Denying the fact that the dominance exists, at least in the world top 20 (14 out of the top 20 are Asian in Men), does not help the problem. The first step to solving a problem is recognising there is one!

 

[Nuke Skywalker]

Archo,

I don't think anyone stated that Asians are "superior" because they are Asians, however it is hard to deny that currently they do dominate the table tennis scene other than a few exceptions (Ovtcharov, Samsonov, Boll etc..). If anything this provides more motivation for other continents to provide a challenge, breaking such dominance would be a remarkable achievement. The fact that the players I listed have proved themselves at this level is inspiring for others.

Denying the fact that the dominance exists, at least in the world top 20 (14 out of the top 20 are Asian in Men), does not help the problem. The first step to solving a problem is recognising there is one!

I don't know the exact statistics, but I would bet at least 14 of 20 players worldwide are Asian. More asians play, therefore bigger pool of talent.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Oh no. Not this again.

Read what Baal said. Nothing more needs to be said.

Person by person, shot by shot, technique is adjusted to the incoming ball.

If we had 2 20 year old players and one had 14,000 hours of training from the ages of 10-20 and the other had 25,000 hours of training from the ages of 6-20, what would we be looking at?

Now say the 25,000 was with the very highest quality coaching available. And the 14,000 hours was 50% unsupervised match play. And the coaching was spotty at best.

Again, what would you be looking at? A higher level of play because of the quality and quantity of training?

The numbers for hours of training I came up with were based on 6 hours a day, 6 days a week for 14 years from the ages of 6-20 for the 25,000 hours. And 4 hours a day 6 days a week for 10 years 10-20 for the player with 14,000 of training.

I would say that is close to accurate and if anything, I overestimated the amount of training for the 14,000 hours that I am guessing a 20 year old European player has under his belt.

Train more, get better. And still, Timo got as much spin as anybody. Anybody.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[RajaLoopah]

The post was created as an experiment:
1. To start a conversation +1 for Lawrence
2. For other members to share their insights
3. To identify the differences in the techniques of Asians and Europeans(strong points,weak points)
4. To identify the problems why Europeans struggle against Asians
5. Cause I want to go deeper than just the repetitive explanation or is it just me as a deep person.

Aaaaaaand it failed. lol

 

[Baal]

The premise is shallow. For too many reasons to list. But if you want to go on about it feel free to post a collection of overly broad generalizations.

One place to begin is to not lump all Asian players together.