Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[ttmonster]

Whatever you said is true , but the scene here is a little different , adding to the cut throat scenario that Der described above, any and every coach charges 50 dollars and above , till about 80-90 dollars depending on their credentials , most of the clubs here are somehow tied to ethnicity :

So you have a
1. Vietnamese club -> More adult players but you need to know their language or be shamelessly thick skinned to even penetrate the social circle ( which I was at one point )
2. A couple of Indian clubs -> purely focussed on cut throat youth programs , unless you are putting big donations or know the kingpin(s) mediocre adult players are not warmly welcomed
3. A few Chinese clubs -> Again huge language barier , very well knit groups which would not want to welcome a non asian player in their mix unless you are 2200 or more ...

So here are a few scenarios , during my journey from a <1000 rated player to around 1600-1800

< 1000 : You enter a club , nobody wants to play you. You get poached by a pretender coach who shows you pictures of how he trained Ariel / Lily etc and then waste 3 months and hundreds of dollars of your money to realize that its going down the drain ...

now this is the twilight zone , you either have to decide to chuck it or keep sticking to it , then you break in the first social barier where the comparatively weaker players want to play you , once you start beating them , the next layer has a weird reaction , they might want to drill with you if you are good enough but not play you because their prestige will be hurt if you beat them and then they will start making excuses to not playing you at all

so .. you keep putting the money in for good coaches to get whatever pearls of wisdom you can get and make the most of your playing time with them ( max you could afford is probably 2 sessions a week of one hour which would cost you 160 dollars to 180 dollars a week + league money + club membership )

3. Now you are slowly inching to 1600-1800 : You know a few people , a few good guys who are out side all of this and then you say what the heck , I cannot put more money down the drain I will just keep playing socially with people who are nice and fairly competitive to play with ... instead of putting up with all the weird shyt .. its only a game ... that is exactly where I am ...

There is another way to improve and that is to keep floating from club to club and paying money for their leagues and memberships so that you are able to find out whatever outliers you can and keep improving ...

I know what to do to improve my game, but I cannot find practice partners who are willing to put in the time , effort and understanding to form a team to keep improving . I don't have the energy or time to keep breaking into these circles of trust or whatever they are ... and believe me I have successfully breached a couple of them ...

Now tell me , what do you make of california table tennis , yes we will produce Ariel Hsings and Lily Wangs whose parents and sponsors are willing to fork out millions but we won't be able to create a nice socially active atmosphere where table tennis knowledge is shared and adults can come into the game and improve with advise without wasting significant money ...

This little snippet caught my attention...

As one of the top level players in my area, with several players that are over the equivalent of 2000 USATT, I can confirm that in our case the top players do tend to congregate together in their own private hangouts, so as to avoid constant requests from weaker players for "just a quick game...". Most of the guys are quite good about hitting with low level players in general, but sometimes the top guys would actually like to play and train with each other for a while, and get some work of our own done. So we arrange to go to a specific club instead of the main centre in the area.

Another interesting point is that where I am from it is actually quite easy to get the top guys to spill the beans, all of my colleagues are willing to discuss technique and tactics with lower level guys. But what I've seen consistently over my 30 or so years in the sport is that very, very few of these lower level players actually listen to what the top guys say and then even fewer actually go out and try to implement the advice for the next few months.

In general, lower level players talking to high level players seem to fall into a few categories:

1) They want to explain to the the top guys their excuses for not doing things properly, as if the top guy can give them permission to keep doing it incorrectly.
2) They want to argue that their way is better than the top guys suggestions.
3) They want to learn to do things that are way beyond their capability.

and one that I get a lot as a long pips player;
4) They want to get tips on how to play better with their long pips, but insist on trying to do things with their long pips that the pips are not designed to do well, and then want to inform me on a regular basis that they are still struggling with their long pips. Go figure!

 

[Ilia Minkin]

How do you know you can trust Brett, Gregg or Pingskills?

1) They played/coached themselves at a quite high level
2) Things they say/show looks consistent with the images of high-level players one can find on YouTube

 

[Shuki]

1) They played/coached themselves at a quite high level
2) Things they say/show looks consistent with the images of high-level players one can find on YouTube

and they're coaching your opponent. definitely worth listening to their advice to you >.>

nah, I honestly can't see coaches doing that to other players. make yourself look bad as a coach and rep goes down the drain.

 

[NextLevel]

1) They played/coached themselves at a quite high level
2) Things they say/show looks consistent with the images of high-level players one can find on YouTube

Okay. How are you sure that the problems that high-level players face are relevant to the problems that you are facing?

The original TTEdge site with William Henzell's coaching was a good example - lots of "good" advice, but plenty of it was pretty advanced - I like parroting it, but I am not sure that I actually learned as much as I thought I did and I think quite a bit of it was directed at a higher level player than I was and I was probably USATT 1800-2000 for most of the time I was a member.

 

[Archosaurus]

NL makes a good point: I was about to say that.

Of course, we do understand why Greg and Brett and whatnot have more or less qualified themselves. I think it's probably somewhat reasonable to listen to what they say and not be terribly skeptical.

However, why then be skeptical of everyone else? In reality we don't *really* know if what we're being told is to our benefit or not. No matter who it comes from.

I certainly wouldn't say that listening to authority correlates with quality. It's just worse if you yourself aren't an expert and able to evaluate the advice given. They could be giving completely true advice, that is wholly incompatible with your needs, and you won't even know it!

 

[Ilia Minkin]

Whatever you said is true , but the scene here is a little different , adding to the cut throat scenario that Der described above, any and every coach charges 50 dollars and above , till about 80-90 dollars depending on their credentials , most of the clubs here are somehow tied to ethnicity :

So you have a
1. Vietnamese club -> More adult players but you need to know their language or be shamelessly thick skinned to even penetrate the social circle ( which I was at one point )
2. A couple of Indian clubs -> purely focussed on cut throat youth programs , unless you are putting big donations or know the kingpin(s) mediocre adult players are not warmly welcomed
3. A few Chinese clubs -> Again huge language barier , very well knit groups which would not want to welcome a non asian player in their mix unless you are 2200 or more ...

So here are a few scenarios , during my journey from a <1000 rated player to around 1600-1800

< 1000 : You enter a club , nobody wants to play you. You get poached by a pretender coach who shows you pictures of how he trained Ariel / Lily etc and then waste 3 months and hundreds of dollars of your money to realize that its going down the drain ...

now this is the twilight zone , you either have to decide to chuck it or keep sticking to it , then you break in the first social barier where the comparatively weaker players want to play you , once you start beating them , the next layer has a weird reaction , they might want to drill with you if you are good enough but not play you because their prestige will be hurt if you beat them and then they will start making excuses to not playing you at all

so .. you keep putting the money in for good coaches to get whatever pearls of wisdom you can get and make the most of your playing time with them ( max you could afford is probably 2 sessions a week of one hour which would cost you 160 dollars to 180 dollars a week + league money + club membership )

3. Now you are slowly inching to 1600-1800 : You know a few people , a few good guys who are out side all of this and then you say what the heck , I cannot put more money down the drain I will just keep playing socially with people who are nice and fairly competitive to play with ... instead of putting up with all the weird shyt .. its only a game ... that is exactly where I am ...

There is another way to improve and that is to keep floating from club to club and paying money for their leagues and memberships so that you are able to find out whatever outliers you can and keep improving ...

I know what to do to improve my game, but I cannot find practice partners who are willing to put in the time , effort and understanding to form a team to keep improving . I don't have the energy or time to keep breaking into these circles of trust or whatever they are ... and believe me I have successfully breached a couple of them ...

Now tell me , what do you make of california table tennis , yes we will produce Ariel Hsings and Lily Wangs whose parents and sponsors are willing to fork out millions but we won't be able to create a nice socially active atmosphere where table tennis knowledge is shared and adults can come into the game and improve with advise without wasting significant money ...

ttmonster, I have nothing to say: let me just send you a virtual hug... I have been going through very similar experiences. I just got so tired of this so I ultimately resorted to practicing on my own half of the time: service practice, shadowplay, robot whenever possible, and endless watching of videos of pros from training halls

 

[ttmonster]

I will tell you what I have learnt from the forum and it has immensely helped me :

1. re thinking or constantly being aware of my grip , especially when it becomes too backhand oriented when I am doing backhand drills vis-a-vis my regular grip with which I am more comfortble hitting forehands ...

2. understanding the significance of holding the paddle with different pressures to control the length of the ball

3. trying to work on my whip technique to create optimal contact

4. using the ttedge app regularly to train my response , which is mostly to move with bias rather than watching the ball closely ..

and these are just few that came to mind ...

If they listened, I guess that would be a start, perhaps something might get absorbed and be of benefit. But in general, listening without going out and applying what you heard is fairly worthless as far as table tennis is concerned. Same holds true for what people read on Internet table tennis forums.

Simple question to all: How many bits of advice that you read or heard about table tennis did you actually go out and apply for three months?

I would hazard an uninformed guess that lower level players do not want to change their ways. Change is often painful, and in this context of getting advice it means that the lower level player must acknowledge that he has been doing it wrong up until now, and he must then work hard to correct his mistake. That can be pretty hard on the ego to admit you've been wasting your time doing something wrong all along, and for many people it is probably easier to shrug off such advice in order to maintain their self-image.

I've played over 30 years, and in the last couple of years I have learnt:
1) I had been hitting my forehand too far in front of my body;
2) I had not been using the most suitable technique to hit with my long pips;
3) You can in fact be much more aggressive than you think, IF you develop the mental discipline to stay aggressive, and back it up with correct stance and technique, even if your footwork ability is limited.
4) For my own style, when I am struggling to keep up with an opponent's pace, it means I must play even faster and hit even harder, not try to play more controlled and careful. (WARNING: This applies to hitting aggressively with a combination bat, use at your own risk!)
etc

I only learnt these things because I am more interested in learning and improving then trying to maintain some mental image of myself as a finished, expert table tennis player. Consequently I am probably playing some of my best table tennis ever even though my mobility and fitness is quite poor at the moment.

 

[Ilia Minkin]

Okay. How are you sure that the problems that high-level players face are relevant to the problems that you are facing?

All mentioned coaching videos contain a plenty of basic information that is 100% relevant to my issues. Especially Pingskills, which is super adult-learner oriented and friendly. TTEdge in its current condition is great too.

 

[Archosaurus]

@ttmonster

Explain "moving with bias".

 

[ttmonster]

I know quite a few of my friends who have done this , but man to man , don't give up, just go and play every tom , dick and harry who wants to play you. If you are good and smart you will find out a way to improve and if they ask their advise just give it to them without being condescending , tell them this is how I feel it works , hope my experience helps you .... if we give up , its never going to change ...

ttmonster, I have nothing to say: let me just send you a virtual hug... I have been going through very similar experiences. I just got so tired of this so I ultimately resorted to practicing on my own half of the time: service practice, shadowplay, robot whenever possible, and endless watching of videos of pros from training halls

 

[Ilia Minkin]

BTW Pingskills was (and still is) a huge inspiration for me. What helped me a lot is their 52 week training plan where they explain the logic behind including specific drills into a practice session to work on a specific side of the game.

 

[ttmonster]

@ttmonster

Explain "moving with bias".

when you keep playing the same people over and over or people who are below your level you have certain response to your serves or shots , so instead of actually watching the ball you start moving like robot to the spot where you are expecting the ball to come ... it can also be a knee jerk reaction to speed or quality when you are playing better players where you favor moving to your strong side ...

 

[DTopSpirit]

Yes, I am that Greg Letts from the About.com days... oh the memories...

In regards to trusting me as a coach, these days I would not claim to be a high level coach, or an expert on all things whose word should be taken as gospel. I've learned that I was wrong about things I thought I knew was true all too often over the years, so I am much more cautious about trying to be definitive with advice and technique these days.

An expert player? Yeah, I can claim that, and I've got the record to back that up over the years. Not a pro by any means, but an expert - yeah probably. 900 in the world, wins over Australia's top 10 players, so OK.

An expert defender - yep. An expert combination bat attacker? In the last year or so, yeah - I've learnt a lot and lifted my game to that level judging by my results against my peers.

An expert two wing attacker? Iffy - I can do it but never quite at the same level, especially not now with health/fitness problems. I wasn't a natural at it but I could do it pretty well, 2000+ USATT level anyway.

I am pretty much just a player who has thought a lot about the game, and experimented a fair bit, and played fairly high level using different styles. I still give advice to some locals but I tell them that they must apply their own common sense filter regarding my advice.

One point on technique advice I will make - when suggesting technique changes I generally advise people that how it feels it not as important as how it works - better technique will often feel a bit strange. But if the result is consistently better you know you are probably on the right track.

But so far as trusting me as a coach, I probably know more about table tennis than most people, but it certainly doesn't make me right all the time! Run any of my advice through your own BS filter and then decide whether to give it a try.

Greg

 

[NextLevel]

All mentioned coaching videos contain a plenty of basic information that is 100% relevant to my issues. Especially Pingskills, which is super adult-learner oriented and friendly. TTEdge in its current condition is great too.

Fair enough. My point is not so much that they are relevant or not - I forward all those videos to my students all the time and I sent Greg's articles on pips out all the time and even watch his videos, which are often much longer than I think they should optimally be to fully hold my attention.

My point is that a lot of TT improvement takes place at a level of detail and work that makes such advice largely superficial. Without a coach or an expert who is willing to address the specific problems you are having, and without putting in the hours at the table, it is difficult to make progress in this sport. General advice only goes so far in addressing the complexity of table tennis. And depending on how good you want to get, some general advice is more relevant than others.

There are also lots of psychological issues tied to training and improvement that can be hard to work through without a coach. There are many things that you may not figure out unless a better player tells you. To cut a long story short, it is hard to get better with detail specific coaching. That tends to cost money. If better players are willing to hit with you and work with you, that is one thing. But general advice is rarely if ever a substitute for that unless the player is very advanced.

 

[Ilia Minkin]

I know quite a few of my friends who have done this , but man to man , don't give up, just go and play every tom , dick and harry who wants to play you. If you are good and smart you will find out a way to improve and if they ask their advise just give it to them without being condescending , tell them this is how I feel it works , hope my experience helps you .... if we give up , its never going to change ...

Yeah, you are right. One can practice a lot of things (e.g. serve/receive + first atack) with anybody who can push backspin and is willing to spend time on drills, I do this a lot. But you also need someone to block for you, and not everybody wants to even learn these things

 

[Ilia Minkin]

Fair enough. My point is not so much that they are relevant or not - I forward all those videos to my students all the time and I sent Greg's articles on pips out all the time and even watch his videos, which are often much longer than I think they should optimally be to fully hold my attention.

My point is that a lot of TT improvement takes place at a level of detail and work that makes such advice largely superficial. Without a coach or an expert who is willing to address the specific problems you are having, and without putting in the hours at the table, it is difficult to make progress in this sport. General advice only goes so far in addressing the complexity of table tennis. And depending on how good you want to get, some general advice is more relevant than others.

There are also lots of psychological issues tied to training and improvement that can be hard to work through without a coach. There are many things that you may not figure out unless a better player tells you. To cut a long story short, it is hard to get better with detail specific coaching. That tends to cost money. If better players are willing to hit with you and work with you, that is one thing. But general advice is rarely if ever a substitute for that unless the player is very advanced.

People watch instructional videos and use online coaching not because they have wonderful offline coaches and training partners.

 

[DTopSpirit]

Fair enough. My point is not so much that they are relevant or not - I forward all those videos to my students all the time and I sent Greg's articles on pips out all the time and even watch his videos, which are often much longer than I think they should optimally be to fully hold my attention.

Yeah, sorry about that, I was trained as a computer instructor to always repeat what you are trying to teach the student a minimum of 3 times, in order to make sure that they really do understand what you are saying. I tended to carry this through into many of my first couple of years worth of videos.

Of course, you don't really need to do that in a video where people can just replay the video as desired, so these days when I do happen to do a video I try to keep it to one explanation only. I still repeat 3 times when explaining in person to people, since it seems to work quite well face to face.

I should probably go back and redo/re-edit some of the old videos, but there are several hundred and to be honest I just don't have the energy to face the prospect.

 

[Ilia Minkin]

I know quite a few of my friends who have done this , but man to man , don't give up, just go and play every tom , dick and harry who wants to play you. If you are good and smart you will find out a way to improve and if they ask their advise just give it to them without being condescending , tell them this is how I feel it works , hope my experience helps you .... if we give up , its never going to change ...

Well, I have several glimpses of hope. First, some communities are quite friendly. I will never forget my first meeting with Carl at SPiN, BTW as well as TTDaily meetup in January Second, some club owners are aware of this issue. Because they want their customers to be happy for their clubs to be successful, they do their best to mitigate it by hooking up people with similar levels and goals etc.

 

[Archosaurus]

Hah. I'd been watching video of myself playing, and I tend to do this kind of circular windmill backhand, be it a flick or topspin.

I'd thought it was technically a mistake, but it worked, so I've let it stick. Now I'm watching Ma Long playing Sun Wen, and Sun Wen has this huge backhand that does a similar circular motion! Maybe it has it's uses then...

 

[NextLevel]

People watch instructional videos and use online coaching not because they have wonderful offline coaches and training partners.

I agree. But unless one is extremely lucky or talented, even those online videos are of limited value compared to being able to play against or hit with better players.

I was lucky to be picked up by a coach who got good as an adult and had worked with Alex Polyakov of "Breaking 2000" fame. So he had trained at least one adult player to an advanced intermediate level. Today, we aren't on quite the same terms we were a couple of years ago as I have tried to assert my own intellectual independence but I will forever be grateful for the work he did in helping me get better as a player. He was also incredibly cheap and charged/charges only $25 per hour. He would also follow his students to tournaments to help them navigate matches at no extra charge.

Brett was the first coach who gave me a framework for understanding high level able tennis technique that I could actually explain to adults whenever they asked questions that I had asked most coaches but never gotten answers to. It's not great manners IMO to challenge or disagree with high level players, but it's also a common experience to have a question that high level player answers in a way that a lower level player just can't see the value or logic. As much as I wanted to coach, I doubt that if I had never even seen Brett's TTEdge videos or picked his brain that I would ever be writing on threads like this one with the confidence that I am writing now.

Even with all that expertise, there was a lot of stuff Brett was able to show me in person that I could not fully get from his videos on the internet. And getting better with that stuff still took hours of practice.

And there are lots of different philosophical approaches to the game. They can confuse you if you are looking for the holy grail.

The one thing that often does wonders is being able to hit with better players on a regular basis. But that is often what coaching does for you anyways.