Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Boogar]

Probably late to the party on this one but I'm calling BS on a relatively new youtube channel. EmRatThich

If you guys like to occasionally surf table tennis related things on youtube, you've probably seen this one.

It wasn't until this video, where I simply thought, okay lets get serious.

"How to Loop"

In the past I've thought "This guy seems to know at least something about table tennis." But after this one, I think I've had my fill. Every video increasingly becomes more & more a theme of China does it right. Everywhere else in the world does it wrong. He essentially says he's seen as much about 20 seconds into the video... Nevermind the fact that there are 1.3 billion people in that country as a sample size to select from. ... But that's a different topic.

I simply asked for some footage of the person playing or the coaching they have been receiving simply as a means to justify them as a legitimate table tennis source and wouldn't you know it? Crickets in reply. SMH.

I wouldn't say its all BS. Hey may be very biased towards china but the stuff he talks about seems to make sense. At least to me that is.

 

[Yecats Encerwal]

You were doing okay until you got to "at all". Population size is always a measure of human resources and the idea that having more resources to throw at a problem doesn't affect or influence success is pretty odd, to be honest. Limiting the list to the top 5 is also not the way a social scientist would approach this - a social scientist would at the very least correlate world rankings with human populations and come to a positive, negative or zero correlation. It's really unlikely that population is not a factor for achievement in any sport. It may not e the dominant factor, but it is almost always a factor. Germany and Japan are amongst the most populous nations in the world, and in Africa, same for Nigeria and Egypt.

In China, given how they produce athletes, it is clearly in part a factor. There are a lot of athletes who do not survive the rigors of Chinese TT training. The ability to be able to throw enough athletes into a hard training regimen and select those that succeed is a luxury given to you by a large population. That there are special training schools that one can go to for table tennis is in part cultural, but is also a benefit of a large population. You don't get that kind of specialization with a smaller population in something like table tennis. You just don't.

I can partly see your point however I think you have taken my comment a bit too literally (I may have worded it badly!) My point is that it is that population size is definitely not a contributor to success by itself. It needs to be in combination with many other (more important) factors. Just having a large population does not mean a country is going to be successful at a certain sport/thing. To be honest I wouldn't even put it in the top 3 reasons as to why China is so successful. If population by itself was such a huge advantage, the USA, Indonesia and India would be TT powerhouses, but that is obviously not the case. The UK is a prime example of a country that has done so well with a tiny population in comparison to China. And sorry NL, but I am not a social scientist, and I definitely do not have the time to research all of those things you stated haha

I think it is fairly obvious looking at the top 5 countries (or even 10) vs the world rankings list that population has very little to do with TT success. If you want to do more research as you mentioned, and prove me wrong, please feel free as I am interested to know. If it turns out I am wrong, then that's cool I'm fairly sure there is no real correlation between population and TT rankings.

Anyway it is an interesting topic, but probably one that isn't that important to discuss in depth. It just bothers me that people seem to attribute a huge portion of China's success to the fact that they have a massive pool of people to choose from. This just isn't the case, otherwise the other high pop countries would be in the same boat. It is so much deeper than that. Thanks for your input though, creates interesting discussion

 

[NextLevel]

I wouldn't say its all BS. Hey may be very biased towards china but the stuff he talks about seems to make sense. At least to me that is.

Here is an article from a former US Champs runnerup comparing different forehands. Can anyone read/watch this and say that Timo is not using his legs when he loops and Ma Long is not using his elbow? Don't let charlatans fool you by comparing lower level players to higher level players. Compare players at the same level.

http://butterflyonline.com/weight-transfer-and-using-your-legs/

 

[NextLevel]

I can partly see your point however I think you have taken my comment a bit too literally (I may have worded it badly!) My point is that it is that population size is definitely not a contributor to success by itself. It needs to be in combination with many other (more important) factors. Just having a large population does not mean a country is going to be successful at a certain sport/thing. To be honest I wouldn't even put it in the top 3 reasons as to why China is so successful. If population by itself was such a huge advantage, the USA, Indonesia and India would be TT powerhouses, but that is obviously not the case. The UK is a prime example of a country that has done so well with a tiny population in comparison to China. And sorry NL, but I am not a social scientist, and I definitely do not have the time to research all of those things you stated haha

I think it is fairly obvious looking at the top 5 countries (or even 10) vs the world rankings list that population has very little to do with TT success. If you want to do more research as you mentioned, and prove me wrong, please feel free as I am interested to know. If it turns out I am wrong, then that's cool I'm fairly sure there is no real correlation between population and TT rankings.

Anyway it is an interesting topic, but probably one that isn't that important to discuss in depth. It just bothers me that people seem to attribute a huge portion of China's success to the fact that they have a massive pool of people to choose from. This just isn't the case, otherwise the other high pop countries would be in the same boat. It is so much deeper than that. Thanks for your input though, creates interesting discussion

Didn't I just point out that many of the best TT nations in the world in their continents (China, Germany, Japan, Brazil, Australia, Nigeria, Egypt) are also the largest populations in their continents? You are confusing the claim that something might not be a primary factor with the claim that it isn't a factor at all. And you are also looking at just the elite athletes and not the broader culture. Population size is clearly a factor. The reasons why people ask about Sweden and Portugal is because they are small countries - they show it is possible to do it as a smaller country.

There are other factors obviously (investment in the sport, exposure to high level table tennis etc.) that are likely more important than population, but that does not mean that population is not important. If you look at the worst TT nations in the world, they are very small islands with low populations. It might mean that something else is explaining that, but it definitely shows that there is a correlation between population and TT success. How large it is is the question. And I don't have the time to do the work either, but my point is that you shouldn't be so smugly dismissing the importance of population.

 

[Archosaurus]

I did find it funny how EmRat compared an obvious amateur player to a professional who's been said to have perfect technique.

 

[Yecats Encerwal]

Didn't I just point out that many of the best TT nations in the world in their continents (China, Germany, Japan, Brazil, Australia, Nigeria, Egypt) are also the largest populations in their continents? You are confusing the claim that something might not be a primary factor with the claim that it isn't a factor at all. And you are also looking at just the elite athletes and not the broader culture. Population size is clearly a factor. The reasons why people ask about Sweden and Portugal is because they are small countries - they show it is possible to do it as a smaller country.

There are other factors obviously (investment in the sport, exposure to high level table tennis etc.) that are likely more important than population, but that does not mean that population is not important. If you look at the worst TT nations in the world, they are very small islands with low populations. It might mean that something else is explaining that, but it definitely shows that there is a correlation between population and TT success. How large it is is the question. And I don't have the time to do the work either, but my point is that you shouldn't be so smugly dismissing the importance of population.

I am not smugly dismissing anything. I am saying there is way too much emphasis put on China's population when in reality, the fact that smaller countries have broken through proves that population isn't the be all and end all factor. I'm saying that just because a country has more people, doesn't mean it is going to be more successful. It has more to do with funding, expertise and culture than it does population. It just so happens that in some cases (Nigeria, Egypt etc) the funding for table tennis is higher than it is in the less populated areas because the economies are stronger. Sure, a larger population means more funding etc, or does it? If you think about it, Indonesia has a large population, but is a relatively poor country too. So why, if it has so many people, is it not at the top of most sports? Its not just population. Its many other factors surrounding population. China could have 1.3 billion people and yet no desire to play TT, and they would be no where near the top of the TT rankings. The number of people in a country only has an impact on success in sport if the passion/focus/funding is there first. Without this, population has no bearing at all, which is my point. This is why Portugal, England, France, Sweden have been so successful, not because of their populations but because of their attitude towards the sport.

In my opinion

 

[NextLevel]

Yecats,

If you can find me anyone of note who says that the main reason China is the best at table tennis is their population, I will give you a free sheet of Tenergy 80. What you will find is people comparing the success of China to say the success of Germany or Japan or Korea, then you hear population.

Things that might be irrelevant when comparing India and China may not be irrelevant when comparing Japan and China.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Nevermind the fact that there are 1.3 billion people in that country as a sample size to select from.

Just a quick point, and as you said it is a different topic, but my opinion Is that population size Is not a driving factor in table tennis success at all.

I'm going to bypass the subject of population and point out that I think you may have missed the point suds79 was making altogether.

With so many people playing table tennis in China, how can you postulate a Chinese technique? Wang Liqin has a different FH than Ma Lin, Ma Lin has a different FH than Wang Hao, Wang Hao's FH is different than ZJK, ZJK's is different from
Ma Long's, Ma Long's is different than Fan Zhendong's. Where is this mythical Chinese technique?

But they do have great coaches. China does start scouting for talent when kids are 4 years old. They do put the ones that show the potential in "schools" where they play 6 hours a day, 6 days a week by the age of 6-8 years old.

So, yeah, the training has a lot to do with it. The money the country puts into TT has a lot to do with it. But the population does not hurt them. It does play some factor in the process.

But good coaches adjust the training to the player. And China definitely has that going on.

When asked about his style of martial arts, one time, Bruce Lee answered: "My style is no style!" I think part of what he meant is that he adjusted what he did based on who was in front of him. The Chinese coaches teach their players based on individual needs even while the training is equally rigorous for each player.

Regardless of the quality of the training, I am sure they train more people than any other country. So that makes it seem like population is somewhat of a factor. Not the ultimate determining factor. But it plays a part.

And that discussion of population really seems to me to miss the point about how you can't really pinpoint what "Chinese" technique is because there are so many different versions from so many different great players.

And then there are things like: Ryu Seung Min. He has one of the most amazing FHs of the last 2 decades. He is Korean. Is that a Korean FH? Is it a "Chinese" FH?

Oh no! I didn't. That wasn't me. Noooooo....run away!

Man, the goon squad almost got me.



Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[pgpg]

When I was learning to play TT in my twenties, my only source of information for table tennis were videos like the one pgpg posted above.
...

I think it was suds79, not me

 

[NextLevel]

I'm going to bypass the subject of population and point out that I think you may have missed the point suds79 was making altogether.

With so many people playing table tennis in China, how can you postulate a Chinese technique? Wang Liqin has a different FH than Ma Lin, Ma Lin has a different FH than Wang Hao, Wang Hao's FH is different than ZJK, ZJK's is different from
Ma Long's, Ma Long's is different than Fan Zhendong's. Where is this mythical Chinese technique?

But they do have great coaches. China does start scouting for talent when kids are 4 years old. They do put the ones that show the potential in "schools" where they play 6 hours a day, 6 days a week by the age of 6-8 years old.

So, yeah, the training has a lot to do with it. The money the country puts into TT has a lot to do with it. But the population does not hurt them. It does play some factor in the process.

But good coaches adjust the training to the player. And China definitely has that going on.

When asked about his style of martial arts, one time, Bruce Lee answered: "My style is no style!" I think part of what he meant is that he adjusted what he did based on who was in front of him. The Chinese coaches teach their players based on individual needs even while the training is equally rigorous for each player.

Regardless of the quality of the training, I am sure they train more people than any other country. So that makes it seem like population is somewhat of a factor. Not the ultimate determining factor. But it plays a part.

And that discussion of population really seems to me to miss the point about how you can't really pinpoint what "Chinese" technique is because there are so many different versions from so many different great players.

And then there are things like: Ryu Seung Min. He has one of the most amazing FHs of the last 2 decades. He is Korean. Is that a Korean FH? Is it a "Chinese" FH?

Oh no! I didn't. That wasn't me. Noooooo....run away!

Man, the goon squad almost got me.



Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Good point, Carl. I wasn't quite addressing suds79 context, which I clearly understood. I was making the point that population matters.

For people who want to talk about Chinese forehand, there was some recent video of Liu Guoyang's forehand in slow mo as well as Ma Long. It was great to see how similar yet very different the techniques are. Even Zhang Jike's forehand stands apart from others. I like to think that the main thing that makes the Chinese great is their varied approach to forehands, though they refuse to do the Timo (they just haven't got hip yet - just kidding...)

 

[SchemeSC]

I think it was suds79, not me

Whoops. Sorry about that! I corrected the original post.

 

[Darren Maudling]

Personally I think china has a "way" or a structure some may say - they just get table tennis - they live it love it and embrace it so therefore they will dominate its play its growth and its progress from players to equipment closely followed by Japan and of course Korea who also "get" table tennis
A bit like Brazil with football and India with cricket - it's simply in their DNA

 

[suds79]

I wouldn't say its all BS. Hey may be very biased towards china but the stuff he talks about seems to make sense. At least to me that is.

Whew looks like I started a sh!t storm. I knew that comment possibly would. I came very, very close to not putting it in there. But I did.

I do think China has some of, maybe the best training around. It's their national sport so outside of having a huge population base to select the best players to advance, I would bet that a much higher percentage of the people there care and/or train in TT which further expands essentially they're base of players playing TT compared to other countries.

Is it the only factor? Not at all. But you cannot say it's not a huge one. Lets say in a hypothetical world where their population base was 1/2 of what it is. Basically Europe. Would they still be #1? I'd say yes because it is afterall their national sport. But instead of having Ma Long, FZD, ZJK & XX for all those years, you'd have only 2 of those 4. That's a big hit opening up the door for other non-China competitors. Would they just be filled by other China players? Probably. But the list of those players would be cut in 1/2 also. Furthermore, they'd be training against lessor players also given the smaller sample size. Naturally the level of competition would suffer... Long story short, lets just say their population base doesn't hurt them any.

Should we learn from them and their coaching? Every opportunity we can get.

Now to Boogar's comment. I use to think that too Boogar. That's why I subbed to him. I often thought, "that makes sense". But video after video of saying how one side does it right and everybody else in the world does it wrong leaves me highly skeptical and I don't think that channel is nearly as good as I once did.

And I still stand by my original comment about this guy. How do we know this isn't jow schmo 1200? All the videos of image stills vs him actually demonstrating this information makes me wonder.

 

[Boogar]

Whew looks like I started a sh!t storm. I knew that comment possibly would. I came very, very close to not putting it in there. But I did.

I do think China has some of, maybe the best training around. It's their national sport so outside of having a huge population base to select the best players to advance, I would bet that a much higher percentage of the people there care and/or train in TT which further expands essentially they're base of players playing TT compared to other countries.

Is it the only factor? Not at all. But you cannot say it's not a huge one. Lets say in a hypothetical world where their population base was 1/2 of what it is. Basically Europe. Would they still be #1? I'd say yes because it is afterall their national sport. But instead of having Ma Long, FZD, ZJK & XX for all those years, you'd have only 2 of those 4. That's a big hit opening up the door for other non-China competitors. Would they just be filled by other China players? Probably. But the list of those players would be cut in 1/2 also. Furthermore, they'd be training against lessor players also given the smaller sample size. Naturally the level of competition would suffer... Long story short, lets just say their population base doesn't hurt them any.

Should we learn from them and their coaching? Every opportunity we can get.

Now to Boogar's comment. I use to think that too Boogar. That's why I subbed to him. I often thought, "that makes sense". But video after video of saying how one side does it right and everybody else in the world does it wrong leaves me highly skeptical and I don't think that channel is nearly as good as I once did.

And I still stand by my original comment about this guy. How do we know this isn't jow schmo 1200? All the videos of image stills vs him actually demonstrating this information makes me wonder.

I know the way he is talking is transcending. Despite that, the arguments he brings forward make sense.
And I am aware that you should not take anything you hear on the internet for gold. However I hear what he says and then see if i can apply that and if it even makes sense. Everyone can decide for themselves how much they want to believe and I am grateful for everyone who puts out content.

 

[NextLevel]

I know the way he is talking is transcending. Despite that, the arguments he brings forward make sense.
And I am aware that you should not take anything you hear on the internet for gold. However I hear what he says and then see if i can apply that and if it even makes sense. Everyone can decide for themselves how much they want to believe and I am grateful for everyone who puts out content.

I am a bit disappointed that you would actually say this but I would hope that over time, you will have a slightly different take. I used to think that people like Archos made sense all the time when I was coming up in TT. It's part of the reason why I try my best to make sure that people who give advice are presenting their level of play for others to see. I gave you an example of how he compared an amateur to a professional to produce a false view of what is really happening.

 

[Boogar]

I am a bit disappointed that you would actually say this but I would hope that over time, you will have a slightly different take. I used to think that people like Archos made sense all the time when I was coming up in TT. It's part of the reason why I try my best to make sure that people who give advice are presenting their level of play for others to see. I gave you an example of how he compared an amateur to a professional to produce a false view of what is really happening.

Jea i know all that... still I think the stuff he talks about is interesting. I just pick out the stuff I like. Is that so wrong?

 

[NextLevel]

Jea i know all that... still I think the stuff he talks about is interesting. I just pick out the stuff I like. Is that so wrong?

Maybe if all the people watching and TT EDGE and coaching certificate sure. People are picking out studded from Archos too. Is that so wrong?

 

[Boogar]

If they gain something from it. sure

 

[Archosaurus]

Boogar, I don't think you want to use "transcending" in this context. EmRat's talk is probably not terribly transcendental in your mind.

Condescending is probably closer to what you're looking for.

@Boogar

The question here is if you're really gaining anything or if it's correct in the first place.

 

[Boogar]

Boogar, I don't think you want to use "transcending" in this context. EmRat's talk is probably not terribly transcendental in your mind.

Condescending is probably closer to what you're looking for.

@Boogar

The question here is if you're really gaining anything or if it's correct in the first place.

Oh jea thanks xD that makes more sense.

The things i took away from his video is, to pay more attention to weight transfer and hip turn. Is that a bad point?