It's Official | Dimitrij Ovtcharov is the New World Number 1!

[rainneverever]

Poor Carl, a simple unfair but practical case of a 1st round W.O. seems too hard for you to understand.

 

[NextLevel]

Carl, Rainneverever,

Please you are both valuable forum members speaking past each other. Any chance for a truce?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Carl, Rainneverever,

Please you are both valuable forum members speaking past each other. Any chance for a truce?

I agree.

 

[TT Guru]

Hi All,

There is plenty of feedback in the Table Tennis Daily forum, and this is great. It's important however to read up on the regulations and rules of the new system before declaring certain aspects of it are impractical. No system is going to be perfect and meet the expectations of everyone. Viewing the new system from the same point of view as the old doesn't lead to satisfying conclusions because they are based on entirely different criteria.

To say Ma Long should be number one no matter what is an opinion. In my opinion he is the strongest player in the world at the moment, having won all the major titles fairly recently and maintained a consistent win rate against all opponents. The new WR takes into account a player's presence (or lack thereof) on the international stage. With Ma's absence for most of the second half of 2017 he will struggle to regain the top position. With one more win he will have a full deck of 8 results and may move up to 3rd or 4th. As the months go by his older results (most of the points he currently has) will expire and these need to be replaced as fast as they expire with equal or greater results. For this reason I believe Fan Zhendong will become number one before Ma Long has the chance. This system allows predictive analysis, so it's now easier to figure out in advance what needs to happen for a player to move up substantially. This should give us some interesting scenes before the WTTC or Olympic Games when everyone rushes to achieve the best results possible.

Give it time and the rankings will sort itself out, players will increase participation and we (the spectators) will have more great matches to enjoy. The old system actually rewarded absenteeism from international events by letting players maintain a high rank. More and more people are noticing that this new system closely resembles Tennis and other tried and true ranking systems. The reason some people (the loudest ones) are complaining is because they have disagreed with ITTF changing things in the past so they've made up their mind to stand against this without even letting it play out.

It all comes down to the fact that change makes people nervous. I was also very comfortable with how our old system worked in the past, and still say it has some merits, but this is a good move for the future of our sport. Sit back and enjoy, you may find things aren't as they seem once it has time to settle.

-ttGuru

 

[RidTheKid]

I care more about who wins than any ranking. TT is a sport where many players participate but in the end Ma Long wins

 

[drunix80]

I care more about who wins than any ranking. TT is a sport where many players participate but in the end Ma Long wins

Same here. A big fan of ZJK here, I am sure he will not get a chance to be #1 again. Also, little chance to win any world tour event. As long as he wins even couple of matches in world tour, it is a time to rejoice for me !! Your fav player can not remain # 1 forever. Participation has to matter somehow. Sadly, it also means many older players like Boll or Samsonov would move down the ranks quickly because they will not be able to compete so frequently as others.

 

[rainneverever]

Can you address the issues discussed in this thread?
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...687-Dimitrij-Ovtcharov-The-New-World-Number-1!

1. Why the World Tour prize money and standing points differ so much between results (winner gets 1.4x - 2x of loser) while new ranking points differ so little (winner only gets 1.1x - 1.2x of loser)? For tennis, winner gets 1.4-1.7x points and 1.7x-2x prize money of loser.
2. How can a young player ranked 300+ be able to improve his/her ranking under new system? There is no way for them to boost ranking by upsetting higher ranked players occasionally and they do not have much chance to enter a tournament because of their low ranking.

Give it time and the rankings will sort itself out, players will increase participation and we (the spectators) will have more great matches to enjoy. The old system actually rewarded absenteeism from international events by letting players maintain a high rank. More and more people are noticing that this new system closely resembles Tennis and other tried and true ranking systems. The reason some people (the loudest ones) are complaining is because they have disagreed with ITTF changing things in the past so they've made up their mind to stand against this without even letting it play out.

It all comes down to the fact that change makes people nervous. I was also very comfortable with how our old system worked in the past, and still say it has some merits, but this is a good move for the future of our sport. Sit back and enjoy, you may find things aren't as they seem once it has time to settle.

-ttGuru

 

[Michal_Z]

Ding Ning 21? This joke is not funny.

Add to that, Liu Shiwen WR 24 now

 

[yoass]

Never try to explain something simple to an irrational women who just wants to argue. How could such a simple point create so much drama.

I've been reading this a few times, let it simmer for a while, then returned to it only to find that I find it disturbing, still.

I don't think it's proper to castigate discussion partners like this, dismissing them by conjuring a buch of (imho) sexist stereotypes.

For what it's worth, i didn't and still don't consider Rain to be irrational, or her arguments callously contrived to pick fights for fight's sake. Yes, I think she's stubborn in trying to get her point made, whereas Carl is trying to make a different point. In a discussion, nobody has a supreme topical monopoly, so that's all par for the course, and I often value Rain's insights and tenacity in discussions highly. I also value Carl's contribution highly, but still don't like what I'm seeing here.

 

[jawien]

I've been reading this a few times, let it simmer for a while, then returned to it only to find that I find it disturbing, still [...]

I agree.

Yeah Carl, you are the "Super Moderator" ... Just be a little more gracious host ... : )

I wish Rain and Tom would explain in more details, if possible, how the system can affect those young players?

; ))

 

[Atas Newton]

Can you address the issues discussed in this thread?
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...687-Dimitrij-Ovtcharov-The-New-World-Number-1!

1. Why the World Tour prize money and standing points differ so much between results (winner gets 1.4x - 2x of loser) while new ranking points differ so little (winner only gets 1.1x - 1.2x of loser)? For tennis, winner gets 1.4-1.7x points and 1.7x-2x prize money of loser.

yeah, this I'm not happy with. I would much rather an ELO type system when attributing ranking points.

 

[NextLevel]

Yeah Carl, you are the "Super Moderator" ... Just be a little more gracious host ... : )

I wish Rain and Tom would explain in more details, if possible, how the system can affect those young players?

; ))

In an ELO system, all that matters is your strength is measured by who you play against. So if a 12 year old plays anyone in any event, his strength is measured.

In the tennis system, all that matters is how many ranking points you have accumulated. So even if you are playing level wise the best player in the world, unless you have played the events and accumulated the points through play, you will never get the rating. While in an ELO system, you could theoretically get the rating by beating top players in a few events. So you get juniors getting quickly ranked higher without quite having to do the kind of work to establish themselves that they would have to do in a tennis points system.

The same thing happens in tennis all the time. You play on the tour that you get points for - you get ranked as an ATP member when you play on the ATP or ITF. You play challenger events to get ranked on the ATP or ITF but juniors and junior events are ranked separately. My guess is that the ITTF challenger circuit will expand over time to give people more events to play. But juniors don't get ITTF tour ranking points for playing in junior tour events like they do today.

For building a professional tour, this could actually be a *great* thing. But I will let others voice their complaints before voicing my thoughts. You have to think through what a professional tour needs, and step a bit away from measuring *Strength* as your goal.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I've been reading this a few times, let it simmer for a while, then returned to it only to find that I find it disturbing, still.

I don't think it's proper to castigate discussion partners like this, dismissing them by conjuring a buch of (imho) sexist stereotypes.

For what it's worth, i didn't and still don't consider Rain to be irrational, or her arguments callously contrived to pick fights for fight's sake. Yes, I think she's stubborn in trying to get her point made, whereas Carl is trying to make a different point. In a discussion, nobody has a supreme topical monopoly, so that's all par for the course, and I often value Rain's insights and tenacity in discussions highly. I also value Carl's contribution highly, but still don't like what I'm seeing here.

Fair enough. It is true. Rain was not understanding the point I was trying to make. And I was not concerned with the point that people who enter a tournament and lose in the first round probably get more points awarded to them than they should.

But you are right. I did not need to make that comment. I could have simply made my point very simply.

When ML and all the top players play enough tournaments with their standard results, the system will show the best players to be the top players. Right now the system is not showing that because of what the Chinese government did to the top CNT players for protesting LGL's dismissal in the China Open. The reason the CNT players have the rankings they have is largely because they were not able to attend enough tournaments. And that happened due to a situation that was out of the control of the players.

So we shouldn't base how we feel about the new ranking system on results that were affected by an anomaly that had very little to do with what would happen in a normal TT year. If the top CNT players are allowed to play in events, their rankings will rise to the top fairly quickly. The players from other countries who really deserve to be in the top 10 and top 20 will also get there.

And players who don't play enough events, will have a ranking that reflects their participation or lack of participation, rather than their level.

Thanks yoass. I appreciate your comment.

 

[JST]

My understanding is that ITTF hoped to have ELO based system for world ranking and separate "ATP like" system for World Tour. Unfortunately (or luckily) ITTF World tour has far to dominance of ATP tour in tennis (there are basically almost no respected competitions on international level in tennis outside ATP while in TT you have many very good national leagues + events like T2APAC + Champions League etc.) so the incentive to participate and have some Seamaster branded tour points in the end of the season isn't enough to make all the stars appearing regularly (and pushing TT forward - at least in ITTFs' eyes). So they probably had this plan B (and most likely difficult decision for many of officials) to disband current World ranking system and fomr new one which would be copy what ATP and ITTF World Tour do today.

 

[rainneverever]

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...itrij-Ovtcharov-The-New-World-Number-1!/page6
Starting from #106, we discussed the possibility of lower ranked players playing a tour event and possible solutions.
CNT wanted to send Wang Chuqin and Yu Ziyang to play Hungarian Open this Jan. Dec 2017 ranking under new ranking system is used for seeding at Hungarian Open,Wang Chuqin is ranked #387 (#104 under old ranking) and Yu Ziyang #387 (#72 under old ranking). Since there is an upper limit of the number of players in a world tour (290 for Hungarian Open, male + female), they have little chance to participate. Similar situation for other countries. Sweden's Truls Moregard is ranked #166 under old system and #889 under new system Dec 2017. Most likely he will not be able to play any senior World Tour events in 2018 and not likely to improve his senior world ranking. Best solution may be staying in junior world.

I wish Rain and Tom would explain in more details, if possible, how the system can affect those young players?
; ))

 

[Persistence TT]

Fair enough. It is true. Rain was not understanding the point I was trying to make. And I was not concerned with the point that people who enter a tournament and lose in the first round probably get more points awarded to them than they should.

But you are right. I did not need to make that comment. I could have simply made my point very simply.

When ML and all the top players play enough tournaments with their standard results, the system will show the best players to be the top players. Right now the system is not showing that because of what the Chinese government did to the top CNT players for protesting LGL's dismissal in the China Open. The reason the CNT players have the rankings they have is largely because they were not able to attend enough tournaments. And that happened due to a situation that was out of the control of the players.

So we shouldn't base how we feel about the new ranking system on results that were affected by an anomaly that had very little to do with what would happen in a normal TT year. If the top CNT players are allowed to play in events, their rankings will rise to the top fairly quickly. The players from other countries who really deserve to be in the top 10 and top 20 will also get there.

And players who don't play enough events, will have a ranking that reflects their participation or lack of participation, rather than their level.

Thanks yoass. I appreciate your comment.

spot on carl!

 

[Persistence TT]

Timo Boll would have been world ranked 47 or something had this system been implemented in January. He is now world ranked #3. He played more this year than he ever has. Why isn't anyone discussing that? Why are we all focused on Ma Long who played less this year than he could have, low enough to miss the Grand Tour finals which he is the record holding winner of?

because ma long is a fairy? or the pope. or both

p.s. also im not focused on ma long, Im excited that dima and boll manage to beat the chinese and cant wait for the next event to see the clash. The japs are also very close and I hope hirano keeps improving

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

because ma long is a fairy? or the pope. or both

p.s. also im not focused on ma long, Im excited that dima and boll manage to beat the chinese and cant wait for the next event to see the clash. The japs are also very close and I hope hirano keeps improving

Yep. The fact that Timo Boll managed to beat Ma Long and Lin Gaoyan in the World Cup--regardless of whether ML was injured or not playing well--the fact that the finals of the World Cup was Dima vs Timo, was interesting, and an enjoyable change of pace.

The circumstances that led to that happening, the turmoil for the CNT, is not as enjoyable. It would have meant much more if everyone was in top form when that happened. But still, I cannot think of a tournament where there were two CNT players and neither of them got to the finals, in a very long time.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Can you address the issues discussed in this thread?
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...687-Dimitrij-Ovtcharov-The-New-World-Number-1!

1. Why the World Tour prize money and standing points differ so much between results (winner gets 1.4x - 2x of loser) while new ranking points differ so little (winner only gets 1.1x - 1.2x of loser)? For tennis, winner gets 1.4-1.7x points and 1.7x-2x prize money of loser.
2. How can a young player ranked 300+ be able to improve his/her ranking under new system? There is no way for them to boost ranking by upsetting higher ranked players occasionally and they do not have much chance to enter a tournament because of their low ranking.

Looser point ratio must be adjusted
and for weaker player beating higher ranked player MUST deserve "bonus ranking point"

So many of TTD members fans love how no name players beat your Ma Longs and Zhang Jike
other than instant fame, the player gets awarded a lot of points on the previous system, but not any more..... this isn't fair

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I wish Rain and Tom would explain in more details, if possible, how the system can affect those young players?

; ))

Old system:
unranked (no points) junior can play and get a lot of points for beating high ranked players - this happened a few times already
These extra points help speed up such juniors world ranking and therefore starts making a career for themselves and start to earn some form of seeding.

Don't underestimate seeding, as seeding does allow easier access to another round (more points)

IMO for breaking a seeding list (earn points), upsets must occur and player to deserve more points and to "average" out the winner/looser points

Junior ranking points and senior ranking points was together. So a top junior could earn enough points to take part in the senior category and have "good seeding" due to results in the past

New system:
- There is no more "tricks" for the junior player to win extra points
- As per rain's example - limitation to "highest ranked x amount" of players per world tours. So meaning, if you are good enough, but ranked outside - you are not allowed to take part
- junior ranking and senior is separate, so you can be number 1 junior for years, but you might not be able to take part in the senior platinum tours as you have no ranking. Cat and mouse issue

only solutions is for junior to take part in your lower end tours and earn peanuts points and start to accumulate points to better than world top 300, to stand a chance to be allowed to play in your top tours

we all know, you need the top tours (platinum) to give you ranking
ranking gives you olympic rights!!