The Weakest Style

[driversbeat]

Some background about me: I am a flat-hitting attacker with short pips on the forehand and inverted rubber on the backhand. My main weapon is to punch the ball from both sides although I do have a skinny opening backhand loop that throws people off occasionally. One thing that has always troubled me about my style is the lack of consistent looping capabilities, i.e. I may have one good backhand loop but looping in general just never felt natural for me so looping consecutively is pretty much out of the question.

It seems that with the advent of the new ball and Mima Ito’s rise, the old adage that spin is superior to speed seems to have weakened considerably. However, I can’t help but wonder if a blocking/flat hitting style is inferior to other styles for the following reasons:

- Low margin for error. Unlike chopping or looping, there is only a very short window of opportunity available to make an effective shot. Miss that opportunity and all a blocker can do is gently lift the ball back, creating a shot that is not only weak, but also inaccurate due to lack of topspin.

- Susceptibility to incoming spin. Again, because of the lack of topspin, each punch/block is highly reliant on incoming spin. Even if you’re able to read the incoming spin properly, a slight change in degree of rotation can determine whether or not the ball lands or not. I feel that this is where the flat-hitter’s inability to loop consistently comes into play, especially against long-pips blockers and choppers. The initiative is also taken away against loopers because our opening loops often provide opportunities for our opponents to come in with a strong counter loop.

- Lack of power. Mima Ito is strong, but flat hitters in general seem to be a lot weaker in terms of physique compared to loopers and choppers. This translates to weaker attacks as well. Again, due to the lack of spin, crushing smashes actually lose speed very quickly. Anyone with good lobbing skills would be able to easily defend against smashes, and drop shots also provide the lobbed an opportunity to come in to attack once again.

Overall, I love my style and don’t seem myself playing any other way. However, I’m just wondering if anyone has had similar thoughts and if the flat-hitting style simply has a harder learning curve because of the mentioned difficulties. I’ve had coaches in the past tell me to switch to double inverted because my style was ‘impossible to play well’ with. I guess it all comes with the high-risk high-reward territory.

 

[trumpet_guy]

If you can master it, you might consider twiddling the paddle to use inverted on FH when opportunity for a good loop or loop kill arises.

 

[langel]

I’m just wondering if anyone has had similar thoughts and if the flat-hitting style simply has a harder learning curve because of the mentioned difficulties. I’ve had coaches in the past tell me to switch to double inverted because my style was ‘impossible to play well’ with. I guess it all comes with the high-risk high-reward territory.

The flat-hitting style doesn't have a harder learning curve.
Flat hitting is usefull as a technique to use it when appropriate. But if you don't have other techiques in the pocket, its not sufficient for a complete game. The other techniques have a harder learning curve, but its worth to put your accent more on them.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

I played today with a flat hitter (on FH side)

He had SP with a thick sponge on his FH, and SP with very thin sponge on his BH, and he was really very very good and very consistent, especially in fast rallies both at the table and far from the table. He's probably 1 or 2 levels higher than me (at least).

He likes to be fed with fast balls. the kind of balls which seemed most difficult for him are medium paced balls with spin, but not too much, with a low arc and a medium bounce.

Well, i used to be a flat hitter and reached a decent level in my 20s. I don't play the same game anymore because I have old legs now, and i can understand the limits of the style, but it can still be pursued at a high level. Despite playing with SP the guy was able to put quite some spin still; enough to play rallies.

 

[brokenball]

This makes me think of He Zhi Wen.

BTW, it isn't speed or spin alone that helps you win a point. The goal to to place the ball where the opponent can't reach it or can make a good stroke. Don't give your opponent time to react. Sometimes hitting the ball early off the bounce and going for an angle will result in a ball that the opponent can't reach or if he does he ends up out of position.

 

[Lula]

Yes. I think short pimple as a rubber and flat hitting as a playing style is inferior to inverted and looping.

I do think that for some it can be much harder to learn short pimple and flathit. What many people do not understand is that you can only hit the ball at the highest point with a short pimple if you want to play good with it. So it is hard to always hit the ball at the highest point, so you need to move much better compared to inverted in my opinion and you also need to be much more aggressive to get a "good" smash with short pimple. It is also very important to do the same stroke otherwise you will miss because the margin for error is less because hit at highest point, be aggressive and the low arc.

Much of this is true also for inverted if you want to play good. But i feel because you get more help from the rubber in my opinion, get more arc and can actully do a pretty good ball if you hit the ball lower than the highest point and come a little wrong and also be a little less aggressive because you can use the spin more and do not need to hit as aggressive. So because of this it might be easier to play with inverted. I aslo feel coaches knowledge and experience is lacking about how to play with pimples and there are less information about it on the internet so it might be harder because of this. I have put short pimple on two of my players. But i feel that i can do it because i know how it works, many coaches do not.

It is easier with short pimple because you do not need to learn how to spin the ball and do not need to learn to read spin as much.

Personally i think it is much easier to play backhand with my inverted than with my short pimple. Need to train much more if i want to play safe and good with the short pimple because it is much more timing, i do not get help from the rubber as much(pretty hard short pimple) and less margin for error. With inverted i can drop the ball down somewhat, get more arc and play a shot wrong and still get a good result.

So it goes both ways. But i think it leans towards that inverted and looping is better.

Inverted rubber is more safe cause you can create spin. Looping is better because there are more margin for error, more knowledge about it and much better third ball. THe third ball is the biggest liability for short pimple players.

There also must be a reason why there only was short pimple players in china before but it is almost only loopers today.

But i do think that you can be good with any style and you should do wwhat you are naturally good at. I am more naturally good at smashing than looping so a short pimple and flathitting is better for me. With more people using pimples maybe we would se that it is also very possible to become very very good with that style and rubber. Now there are less people using it so of course it will be less success with it. But maybe it is a reason why many chose inverted and looping. Do not know. Alot of speculating here.

 

[Lula]

I played today with a flat hitter (on FH side)

He had SP with a thick sponge on his FH, and SP with very thin sponge on his BH, and he was really very very good and very consistent, especially in fast rallies both at the table and far from the table. He's probably 1 or 2 levels higher than me (at least).

He likes to be fed with fast balls. the kind of balls which seemed most difficult for him are medium paced balls with spin, but not too much, with a low arc and a medium bounce.

Well, i used to be a flat hitter and reached a decent level in my 20s. I don't play the same game anymore because I have old legs now, and i can understand the limits of the style, but it can still be pursued at a high level. Despite playing with SP the guy was able to put quite some spin still; enough to play rallies.

Did you win?

Try serving long and pushing long and he can only do a pretty bad opening loop compared to inverted and you can counterloop it. Also try to vary the placement and tempo alot. Alot of timing in short pimple play. with variation in tempo and placement it will be harder for him to keep his timing and smash good.

Edit: Shit. I just told people how to beat me haha

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

no he beated me very very bad. Im not good against this style.

However I am optimistic. We did our match half through the session and i got better and better. So next time, normally i should do at least a bit better. But I feel he is 1 or 2 levels above. I need to improve much more, especially 3rd ball and receive.

 

[langel]

Flat hitting has two friends only - the window and the gravitation.
Gravitation is always there, but if you have to use it without the window - you're done.
And you have to work with other techniques to make your opponent give you a window.
If you proove to be effective with flat hitting predominantly, than your opponent is weaker.

 

[Lula]

Flat hitting has two friends only - the window and the gravitation.
Gravitation is always there, but if you have to use it without the window - you're done.
And you have to work with other techniques to make your opponent give you a window.
If you proove to be effective with flat hitting predominantly, than your opponent is weaker.

I think everyone needs to work with other techniques to get a good ball to be able to kill it. But i agree that it is much easier to kill the ball if you have done something good before. But that is the same for everyone. I think you can smash alot of balls, as long as you have great footwork. If you are to slow, then you are really correct, then it is really important to do something good so you can get an easier ball to kill. If you are to slow i think you should not use a short pimple with the aim to kill the ball, maybe a short pimple for deception instead but proably better with inverted if you are not so fast.

 

[langel]

I think everyone needs to work with other techniques to get a good ball to be able to kill it. But i agree that it is much easier to kill the ball if you have done something good before. But that is the same for everyone. I think you can smash alot of balls, as long as you have great footwork. If you are to slow, then you are really correct, then it is really important to do something good so you can get an easier ball to kill. If you are to slow i think you should not use a short pimple with the aim to kill the ball, maybe a short pimple for deception instead but proably better with inverted if you are not so fast.

Thats ok, but its just part of the picture. even if you are fast enough to take every ball at the top of the bounce, you will not be able to flat kill a low bouncing ball, no matter the incoming spin. And this is the need of a window - to flat kill a ball it should bounce at leats at net height if its out of the table, or up net height if its over table otherwise you'll kill the bat, not the ball. So if you are a predominantly flat hitter, it will be very difficult to deal with a player good enough to minimize your chances for flat kills. Thats why I say that flat hitting is just a technique, not a style. If it is the style of the player, he/she will be able to kill weaker opponents only.
Neither Ito, nor Harimoto are flat style players. They just use the flat technique to kill, but only when appropriate, and they work for that with other techniques.

 

[suds79]

To the OP. Here's the problem with comparing yourself to the style of the pros.

It's almost like a different sport at that level. Just because 1 or 2 styles dominate at that level, doesn't mean "I must do this to succeed." If you're planning on going pro, sure play dual inverted shakehand and learn to loop & punch accordingly.

But since that's not happening for 99.9% of us, the options are wide open. Just depends on how good you can be.

Modern defender, classic defender, hardbat player, short pip FH/inverted BH? Go for it. If you're good enough, you can beat several, several people around where you live. So just play the style you love and don't worry about what the pros are doing in thinking that's your template for how to succeed.

 

[Lula]

Thats ok, but its just part of the picture. even if you are fast enough to take every ball at the top of the bounce, you will not be able to flat kill a low bouncing ball, no matter the incoming spin. And this is the need of a window - to flat kill a ball it should bounce at leats at net height if its out of the table, or up net height if its over table otherwise you'll kill the bat, not the ball. So if you are a predominantly flat hitter, it will be very difficult to deal with a player good enough to minimize your chances for flat kills. Thats why I say that flat hitting is just a technique, not a style. If it is the style of the player, he/she will be able to kill weaker opponents only.
Neither Ito, nor Harimoto are flat style players. They just use the flat technique to kill, but only when appropriate, and they work for that with other techniques.

I think you are correct, But i also think this also a problem for inverted loopers. If they take the ball lower than the highest point they can not either play very hard because they need a arc to get the ball over the net. But they proably can make a better ball than the short pimple player if they hit the ball Below the highest point because they can get more spin in the ball. But i Do not know how likely it is for them to win from that kind of loop.

I also think that if you stand correct, the ball Will almost all the time be at the highest point sometime so if you are fast you can play hard every ball. But it is not really realisic to come correct to every ball.

Against backspin i think the ball can be low almost all the time and again here the short pimple sucks.

So i totally agree that short pimple is useless when the ball is below the highest point But i think it is possible to smash almost all balls as long as you move really well. But t is hard to move so well.

 

[langel]

I think you are correct, But i also think this also a problem for inverted loopers. If they take the ball lower than the highest point they can not either play very hard because they need a arc to get the ball over the net. But they proably can make a better ball than the short pimple player if they hit the ball Below the highest point because they can get more spin in the ball. But i Do not know how likely it is for them to win from that kind of loop.

I also think that if you stand correct, the ball Will almost all the time be at the highest point sometime so if you are fast you can play hard every ball. But it is not really realisic to come correct to every ball.

Against backspin i think the ball can be low almost all the time and again here the short pimple sucks.

So i totally agree that short pimple is useless when the ball is below the highest point But i think it is possible to smash almost all balls as long as you move really well. But t is hard to move so well.

We have to clarify what is the meaning of "highest point" you use here. Every ball has its highest ball in its trajectory and of course, if you are gast enough, you'll take it at the highest point. But not every ball's highest point is high enough to be smashed. A good "looper" /better say "top spin player"/ will always keep the ball bouncing bellow net height when playing with a flat hitter, making flat killing impossible. With choppers its a little bit different. Traditional "defending" choppers can be somewhat flat killed by a very good flat hitter, provided most of their balls bounce higher than the net level. But there are choppers slicing the ball with a very flat curve, ball bouncing just an inch - you can't flat kill it.
About the smash - here you are absolutely right. Almost every ball can be "smashed"- flat smash when there is a window, or a spinned smash for lower balls. Even cut smash is possible, its difficult, but beautifull.

 

[NDH]

I don’t know why I keep on hearing of this “new style of play” with the 40+ balls, and more speed/hitting over spin/placement.

Unless you are a professional, good controlled attacking spin will beat flat hitters all day long. Even if you are a professional, the spin orientated attackers (which most of them are), tend to outlast the less spinny, flatter hitters.

The balls might have changed size and make up, but spin still wins out 99.9% of the time.

Pips have their place in the sport, and if people can utilise them well, then it can be a good weapon - But personally, I feel a 2 sided inverted top spin game is the strongest (if you can use it well).

 

[Suga D]

I don’t know why I keep on hearing of this “new style of play” with the 40+ balls, and more speed/hitting over spin/placement.

Unless you are a professional, good controlled attacking spin will beat flat hitters all day long. Even if you are a professional, the spin orientated attackers (which most of them are), tend to outlast the less spinny, flatter hitters.

The balls might have changed size and make up, but spin still wins out 99.9% of the time.

Pips have their place in the sport, and if people can utilise them well, then it can be a good weapon - But personally, I feel a 2 sided inverted top spin game is the strongest (if you can use it well).

Exactly.

While reading your post Timo Boll instantly came to my mind.

 

[NextLevel]

Exactly.

While reading your post Timo Boll instantly came to my mind.

I think you are right but the main question is whether the plastic ball has reduced the impact of spin in a way that favors flat hitting and to what degree. I don't think pointing to the current generation of top players conclusively closes the issue. I do think that flat hitting is now easier with the new ball, but that it doesn't mean short pips are the way to go. I think with a certain kind of inverted which is not fully developed yet but which will have the same efficacy as spin pips from the old days, flat hitting may come back a bit. The energy to spin is just much more and that opens a window for flatter styles.