Video Footage Safe Thread

[Der_Echte]

If I want to screw with their minds sum MOAR, I would BH serve from middle of table to their LP pips... I would keep ball low and slow light spin or topspin... then I would BH loop real heavy topspin anywhere. They would block it like it is light to medium spin... then ball flies off their bat and again look at rubber cussing the manufacturer out for defective product and deceptive marketing.

YOU can mind warp play mind warfare easily with this level of the LP crowd once you understand spin, understand LP and basic tactics, then have good fundamentals of position and spin.

 

[Der_Echte]

other players just want to play the best quality stroke for themselves, not really caring so much whether it is 100% textbook or not. In the end the principles of throwing things will not change, but how someone adapts it to table tennis consistency and timing and equipment is entirely personal.

Toss me into the category of "Other Player" who "does not care about being 100% textbook"

I care a lot more about combat effectiveness and combat readiness... a whole more than just looking good.

Anyone watching me do FH to FH close to table in warmup not knowing me would judge me to be below club average player. I say let jokers make that mistake at their expense. Looks have very little to do with performance sometimes.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Since Der went past fundamentals to tactics, one thing I find that is good for me vs LP is me giving dead balls. I have very fast fast serves and I can serve dead very fast, landing on my white line and opponent's white line. One time I had an LP player who was MUCH higher level than me, tell me that that was very effective and that if he was threatened by the rest of my game he would have twiddled to return those serves with his offensive rubber. But you really do have to mix things up, as Der is saying and you have to know the potential of what can come back from backspin, sidespin, topspin vs a LP player when you are serving.

In rallies too, I would add some shots that looked like topspin that were dead and I would also add some dead ball pushes as well. But, both NextLevel and Der are much better at playing vs LP than I am. And the biggest thing I saw for Gozo was that, he just does not seem to understand what could be coming at him and isn't even trying to read what is on the ball. Truthfully, it is a good place to start from because, Gozo, your progress will be fast after you read those articles from Gregg Letts and start trying to put them into action against LP players.

 

[Der_Echte]

One time I had an LP player who was MUCH higher level than me, tell me that that was very effective and that if he was threatened by the rest of my game he would have twiddled to return those serves with his offensive rubber.

Immediately as I was in Korea in 2009, I saw 1000-2000 level 40-50+ yr old AUNTIE crowd PRACTICE dead ball to dead ball exchanges at medium speed (what Carl calls fast on a serve) for as much as a FULL HOUR per day in the rinky dink Korean 4 table TT clubs. Needless to say, the Achuma Auntie crowd well pretty damn well trained on how to handle a dad ball rushed at them.

So, how did they stay their level vs Der_Echte and any good offensive player? (and the auntie lose time and time again vs good offensive players)

What Carl said next.

But you really do have to mix things up, as Der is saying and you have to know the potential of what can come back from backspin, sidespin, topspin vs a LP player when you are serving.

This is the thing that is a known as a combat multiplier... The art of disguising the dead ball is CRUCIAL in pulling off the heist vs an otherwise very well prepared Auntie LP crowd. I personally believe that the dead ball is well setup by your heavy underspin ball. I have my own abilities that shine some more vs this crowd, but setting it up, expecting it, and executing the shot count a lot more than pure shot making ability...

 

[Brs]

Hello everyone,

It has been a long time since I last posted a video of my TT. Here goes. Below is a match of me playing against a better player who uses one side long pimple and the other side tacky rubber. Naturally I lost badly, I was so confused with the spin. I played like a headless chicken. The purpose of this video is to show what happens when you are clueless about spin.

p/s I hope to put up a video of me playing against conventional player, that is to say, two side inverted rubber soon and hopefully with fingers crossed, I would not appear to suck so badly at it.

Hi Gozo, imo this guy is the perfect opponent for you to get better quickly. Defensive players aren't going to make a lot of mistakes. You will have to develop your shot selection, consistency and tactics to beat him. When you play against junk rubbers you also have to think more about the opponent, why does he use LP and what does it buy him, and also cost. LP are generically good at returning serves, pathetically bad at attacking, and demand a very stable playing position. They win mostly by getting errors from you. Respond accordingly.

This guy is playing blocks at the table, not a chopper. Does he return serve with his backhand over almost the entire table? If so then forget serving sidespin. It will bother you way more than him. He wants to inject more spin into the point early, to mess you up with the LP reversal. You can serve backspin and no-spin, that's great if you have a heavy enough backspin to make him net one. If not then various speeds and locations of dead serve are your best option.

He is not going to be able to block well on his backhand if he has to move for the ball. LPs are not magic. Try playing with them sometime, it's freaking hard to put a ball on the table. And he can't attack much with pips, only if you give him a shortish, highish ball he can push hard. So you are in a fight for table position. If you can stay close and move him off his backhand spot you will win, if he forces you away from the table he will. It's much easier to drop the ball short with 0X LP than with inverted, so he will jerk you in-and-out like a puppet if you let him.

Your compensating advantage ought to be that he is giving you control early in the point. What you do with it is the challenge. In this one game your shot selection improved over the course of it. At first you tried to attack the balls you should play safe, spinny, awkward ones, and played soft vs balls you could attack. Think about how confident you are on each ball - do you know the spin? is your body in good position? If you aren't sure, play a deep, safe ball to his pips and start over from there. When you do feel confident about a ball, play a more attacking shot, trying to MOVE him. LP blockers don't want to move far, it's just very bad with their equipment.

None of this is easy. But ALL of it translates 100% into matches with regular double-inverted players. Reading spin, shot selection, table position are important in every table tennis match. It's just against a weird junk rubber game that you really have to think about them because you are unfamiliar, and going on auto-pilot will get you killed. The "I hate pips!" crowd who avoid LP guys as much as they can will never get these benefits.

PS.
Here is a post about spin to supplement Gregg Letts' stuff. http://masatenisi.org/english/spin.htm

Serving what Hodges calls right corkscrewspin can be very effective against one specific play. Many LP guys receive short backspin serves to their middle or bh course by touching the right side of the ball (their right side) and dropping it very short to your fh. If the ball is straight backspin they are touching the side of the ball and avoiding the axis of spin (like NL always talks about for looping vs backspin). But if the serve is right corkscrewspin the axis of spin is perpendicular to the table and that receive goes directly into it. And the ball goes directly down into their side of the table until they figure it out. This is fun.

 

[Dominikk85]

I treated myself with a more decent robot (tibhar jr pro) that can shoot backspin and topspin and hit left and right

Made a video of myself hitting
topspin


https://youtube.com/shorts/92jR1oGWu78?feature=share

And backspin
https://youtube.com/shorts/S25qnHUDD94?feature=share

Video is kinda dark so turn screen full brightness.

I feel against topspin I am improved, shoulders more level and not lifting shoulder so much and I hit the table like 90% of the time.

However against backspin I tried to hit the same and hit the net a lot and after that I fell into my old habit of lifting the shoulder and side bending to get it over the net.

How can I lift backspin over the net without using side bend or shoulder lift? Because if I try to hit backspin like topspin it will hit the net

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I treated myself with a more decent robot (tibhar jr pro) that can shoot backspin and topspin and hit left and right

Made a video of myself hitting
topspin


https://youtube.com/shorts/92jR1oGWu78?feature=share

And backspin
https://youtube.com/shorts/S25qnHUDD94?feature=share

Video is kinda dark so turn screen full brightness.

I feel against topspin I am improved, shoulders more level and not lifting shoulder so much and I hit the table like 90% of the time.

However against backspin I tried to hit the same and hit the net a lot and after that I fell into my old habit of lifting the shoulder and side bending to get it over the net.

How can I lift backspin over the net without using side bend or shoulder lift? Because if I try to hit backspin like topspin it will hit the net

The topspin one looks much better. Also, it looks like you can make it so the ball comes at with less time between each ball (frequency) so, that is good.

The information for backspin is not the same as for topspin. What you were doing vs topspin before was something you would only want to do vs backspin. Vs backspin you would want to drop lower. Maybe you don't need to end so high. But you do want to drop lower.

HOWEVER, you want as much of dropping lower to come from bending your knees rather than it only coming from you tilting your body to the side and dropping your racket. If SOME OF THAT does happen vs backspin, that is DIFFERENT THAN WHY WE WERE TELLING YOU NOT TO DO THAT VS TOPSPIN. But if you look at the photos of any of the players dropping their racket really low vs HEAVY BACKSPIN, you will notice that their legs are so bent that their Thighs are almost parallel to the ground. In your normal stance, your legs are a tiny bit bent (if they could be more bent in your normal stance, it will help you). But vs Backspin your legs do not look like they are bending almost at all from your normal stance, and they should be WAYYYYYYYY MORE bent than they are.

So part of where you want to get that from down low, to up, motion in a loop vs backspin IS FROM THE LEGS, not from the arm, and not as much from the torso as you habitually do.

 

[NextLevel]

I treated myself with a more decent robot (tibhar jr pro) that can shoot backspin and topspin and hit left and right

Made a video of myself hitting
topspin


https://youtube.com/shorts/92jR1oGWu78?feature=share

And backspin
https://youtube.com/shorts/S25qnHUDD94?feature=share

Video is kinda dark so turn screen full brightness.

I feel against topspin I am improved, shoulders more level and not lifting shoulder so much and I hit the table like 90% of the time.

However against backspin I tried to hit the same and hit the net a lot and after that I fell into my old habit of lifting the shoulder and side bending to get it over the net.

How can I lift backspin over the net without using side bend or shoulder lift? Because if I try to hit backspin like topspin it will hit the net

Everything is better, everything can be much better. Thankfully the robot is much better and doesn't have to get better.

1. The lighting is an issue.
2. Use two or three camera angles (front, side, back). That said most of us are used to look at strokes from behind or on front or at righties playing from where you are. So being a lefty and filming from the side you are is making things slightly harder to put into the paradigm most of us think with.
3. You are still too eager to swing at the ball. This is causing you to use too much upper arm while not using the other muscles. Try to swing over very small distances in your strike zone/golden triangle. Film videos of you doing that hitting using your hips to make small hitting swings. You still engage too much upper arm.

So a final point about technical correction: As Lula said, it is painful and often doesnt yield significant improvement in match play over a short period and sometimes even over a long period. Very few players really enjoy it. The end result is almost never a completely new stroke but some weird hybrid of how you used to hit the ball and standard technique. Some people consider it a waste of time if they don't have real goals. In fact when I started to revise my technique, I cleaned up my game but I lost a lot of match proficiency which was used to having an offbeat style- playing like a regular two winged looper made me easier to beat.

I say all this to say that for all the time you are putting into this, it isn't clear what you are trying to get out of it. What are you trying to get out of all this? Sorry if you have already posted it elsewhere and I missed it.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I am posting these again even though I have edited to see just the angle of the thigh in comparison to the ground on the legs of Dima and ZJK vs BackSpin:

Dima: Note, his thigh is almost parallel to the ground. He gets low by bending his knees:

ZJK: Note, his thigh is almost parallel to the ground. He gets low by bending his knees:

Dima does more side movement to get low with his torso. ZJK does more hip flexion to get his torso lower (closer to his thigh) instead of leaning to the side. Needless to say, one of those is functionally more powerful than the other. But.....either is okay if you are also using the legs.

Here is the legs and torso followthrough of ZJK (when I took these screenshots, they were from the same single stroke so this is indeed what happened after the frame above):

I have cut other stuff out so you can focus just on the legs and torso. From just the change in the bend in his legs, his hips are at least 1.5 feet (47 cm) higher than on the backswing. From the change in the angle of bend from torso to hips, his shoulder is at least another 2 feet higher (60 cm). Even if he had not moved his arm, his racket would be 3.5 feet higher (107 cm). That is more than your racket is going as it is. And if you add that ZJK's racket goes from low to high, his racket also moves up about 3.5 feet (107 cm). So, because he is using his legs, and knows how to get better use of his torso, his racket moves almost twice as far, in the vertical plane as yours does.

Think about it. Can you bend your knees and bring your chest a little closer to your thigh instead of leaning to the side with your legs almost straight? And you would not want to do this as your basic stroke. This is only against decently heavy backspin that you would need to get your legs, hips and torso low on the backswing.

 

[Dominikk85]

Thanks next level and carl.

Next level I mainly want to get a workout and hopefully improve technique some. I'm not moving enough as I have a stressful office job so hopefully I can get 20-30 minutes workout twice a week at flexible times when I find time.

I also play matches like once a week and in the summer maybe twice but currently my main partner is injured for the next couple weeks.

I will try that tip with moving over a shorter distance.

Carl I will try the deeper knee bend while upright upper body thing.

Regarding frequency this is the second lowest frequency the machine can shoot (2 out of 6). At 1 I felt like I had to wait too long but 3 I felt rushed a little already so I used 2.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Thanks next level and carl.

Next level I mainly want to get a workout and hopefully improve technique some. I'm not moving enough as I have a stressful office job so hopefully I can get 20-30 minutes workout twice a week at flexible times when I find time.

I also play matches like once a week and in the summer maybe twice but currently my main partner is injured for the next couple weeks.

I will try that tip with moving over a shorter distance.

Carl I will try the deeper knee bend while upright upper body thing.

Regarding frequency this is the second lowest frequency the machine can shoot (2 out of 6). At 1 I felt like I had to wait too long but 3 I felt rushed a little already so I used 2.

Knee bend is only vs backspin and is mainly to make it so you don't have to do it all with the arm.

If what you are doing is primarily for exercise, that drill you do vs topspin switching FH/BH will be good to make it more cardio and exercise.

But you are definitely improving. My posts were just to reiterate that you need to distinguish between basic stroke, bigger topspin stroke vs topspin and what you do vs backspin. The first two are alike and the second is a bigger version of the first. Vs backspin you get lower, you drop your racket lower, and you use your legs and your body to make it so you don't have raise your arm quite so much.

But, without that info, you are improving. And that robot is much much better which means you can work on stuff in a more realistic way.

 

[Dominikk85]

Btw one thing I noticed that I seem to hit the ball more like in the first third of the stroke so I'm hitting the ball more near the start of the stroke and then have a long follow through.

It seems the good players hit the ball more in the last third of their stroke so they hit it near the end of the motion and then stop their follow through pretty shortly after contact.

Is that something to worry about? And did I even see that correctly?

 

[NextLevel]

Dominik,

It takes time to to learn. I say this because being a fan of table tennis, so many things that appear to be similar are different and many things that appear to be different are similar.

Most of what is ideal table tennis hitting takes place in the golden triangle. The golden triangle when you face forward is somewhere between your left and right shoulder. Some would place jr close to the right shoulder for forehand and somewhere closee to the left shoulder for backhand assuming a right handed player. Though most would play the backhand in the center but the main point is between the shoulders. Where in between might change from player to player.

When you turn your shoulders, your triangle moves. When you turn with your legs to swing the torso, the triangle moves. The most important thing about good quality is to backswing beyond this triangle and to hit the ball somewhere between your shoulders. This allows you to rotate and swing into the ball. However the ball may be too low or too high by that time based on how you feel so you may be tempted to take it earlier or later. The optimal solution is to either move your body to where the ball shows up in that Triangle or to wait for the ball to enter the Triangle. Because the best quality is always generated when you swing into the ball, not when you touch it to use the pace on it. But swing means to being your backswing to rotate this shoulders, not just swing your arm. Think of it as throwing a heavy box where you need to use both your arms. Your strength is good between the shoulders but is not outside the shoulders.

Pros when hitting (not big looping) can take the ball off the bouce but the striking area is still close to the racket foot because they don't backswing or turn the shoulders as much as much for hitting or short counter strokes. They turn their shoulders a little. This is what I am asking you to do.

So yes, what you have pointed out is a problem and it is what I mean when I say you are too eager to swing at the ball- you dont try to catch the ball in your Triangle. Get used to flat hitting the ball in your Triangle first. Face where the ball should end up and smack it right there. Even if the ball goes into the net there is nothing wrong. Don't try to lift the ball over the Nets. Many bad habits on table tennis never go away because people are too concerned work putting the ball on the table rather than just using the body correctly and then letting the control come after.

Because if you focus on putting the ball on the table, you can only do that best with what you already know, not with what you need to learn.

 

[Dominikk85]

I don't quite understand the triangle. Is it between the shoulders from the ready position like this

Or is it from the turned/take back position like this?

 

[NextLevel]

I don't quite understand the triangle. Is it between the shoulders from the ready position like this

Or is it from the turned/take back position like this?

Pretty much *BOTH* - where you are facing determines where the triangle is. The first is more typical for backhand, the second is more typical for forehand.

If you stretch both hands out and touch them together like you are carrying a box, you have formed the triangle. Somewhere in there is where you will get your power. The main point is to backswing by using the legs to turn the shoulder and core and swing into a point between the shoulders, probably a bit more towards your right foot on the forehand side, but everyone is different. A hitting stroke is a relatively small version/form of this. But virtually ALL strokes, from pushes to loops to blocks to chops require a contact point somewhere in the triangle. If you turn a lot, the triangle moves a lot. If you turn a little, the triangle moves a little.

Try to just do a little and hit the ball in the triangle first. No motion with the jumping around, just hit the ball in the ideal hitting zone with a short stroke. Then go from there. I know doing a little isn't always great exercise but it often builds better structure and technique.

 

[Dominikk85]

I definitely see the triangle on the BH but I still have trouble seeing it on the FH. To my untrained eye it looks like on the FH the contact is more besides the shoulders out wide rather than between the shoulders.

What am I missing here? Is the FH triangle basically seen from the backswing position and then doesn't turn with the shoulders so essentially it would be between the shoulders with no body turn but then ends up besides the body because the shoulders turn?

 

[Dominikk85]

Or is the forehand triangle essentially set in the backswing (green triangle) and then stays there despite the turning shoulders?

I didn't really understand that because I thought the triangle has to turn with the shoulders (red triangle) which would mean you have to make forehand contact directly in front of the face which didn't make sense to me.

Sorry for asking a lot of questions

 

[NextLevel]

Yeah it stays there.

You are asking questions to your satisfaction which is important but is partly the problem with over intellectualizing table tennis. Table tennis is not mathematics, the ideas are to guide improvement not to prove theorems.

As long you get the general idea that there is a point or a zone in your swing where the ball is struck optimally, and that point is somewhere in between your shoulders and close to your left and foot as a leftie, that is what matters. The forehand is played with full body rotation to take advantage of the space. So the area where you can hit the ball woth full power is somewhere besides you. Most people keep their eyes on the ball somewhat while turning to hit it.

What is confusing you is that you want the Triangle to be the same place even though your shoulders are moving as you swing on the forehand. Again this is not mathematics, this is to convey an idea and if you get the idea of where to hit the ball in your swing, that is all. If someone says you are hitting the ball behind you or too far in front of you, you have an idea of where they think you should be hitting the ball.

 

[Dominikk85]

Thanks, I understand it now. Before the triangle confused me because I thought how can there be a fixed point in the triangle if the triangle is moving?

But if triangle stays where it was it makes sense.

And yes, theorizing it too much definitely is not helping me but it is hard to let go of that.
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[UpSideDownCarl]

I also would add, as you are trying to analyze the idea and examine if every shot fits into the framework.....in the first shot you assessed, of ML, to me, it looks like he is a little out of position in that shot and using his vast skills while out of position to create a shot despite his feet not being set for it.

In the second shot (is the third photo just earlier part of second photo? that is what it looks like to me)....in those two photos....to me it looks like your drawing of the triangle is unfortunately a 2 dimensional image laid over a photo of something that was originally three dimensional. So, where you are drawing the triangle and where it actually is on the person as he is making the shot may not be the same place.

But NextLevel's last line seems to address the issue in a way you may understand. Are you making your contact too late, too early, or in a range that is basically close enough to optimal. If you contact too early, too out in front of you, you will miss some of the power that your stroke can transfer to the ball. If you contact too late, you will also lose some of the potential power from your stroke. I think in those videos of you, you were contacting the ball a little on the late side. If you contact a little earlier in the ball's flight path, which will mean your racket has gone a little farther in it's stroke, you will naturally add more power to the ball from the stroke without the need of adding more effort.

So, it is about efficiency. A way of thinking about this, if you took your backswing, and then started the stroke, and I put my hand in the way of your arm to stop your stroke, near the beginning of the stroke, you would have a hard time moving my arm because your arm is in a position where it does not have much mechanical advantage. If I did the same thing near the end of your stroke, your arm also would not have much power to push my hand. But there is a point where your arm is part way through the stroke where it would be much harder for my hand grabbing your arm, would have a much harder time stopping the forward momentum of your arm. That is also where you want your arm to be, IDEALLY, when you contact the ball.

THEREFORE, if when you are practicing, you are making contact near that zone where you will transfer the most power into the ball, then, WEN YOU ARE IN A MATCH SITUATION like from the photos you posted, and you are doing whatever you need to to get to the ball and get the ball on the table, more often than not, the good training you did when you were taking the ball while it was in your power zone, will make it so enough of your shots, while your opponent is putting stress on you to make a bad shot, will still end up with the result that you are taking the ball while it is IN YOUR POWER ZONE.

In your photo #2, even though it looks like the player has taken quite a large lunge step to get near the ball, when he contacts the ball, it looks like the contact is somewhere in that power zone where it is a little out in front of him rather than the ball getting too far back.