Chinese all boosting, yet never caught red handed/ Why?

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that Butterfly started producing Dignics with a semi-tacky topsheet only after ESN finally caught up with Tenergy in product quality, but not before, when the Chinese dominated with sticky rubber all these years. Why is that? Maybe because the profit was coming, and this is more important than sporting achievements ....

Butterfly always had a semi tack.
I tried tackifire many years ago, this was before I even knew ESN existed.

ESN was like, let me make some rubbers to copy butterfly. let me make some to copy DHS.

When the ball went 40+ (which was 2016), hard sponge rubbers was needed.
DHS obviously was ahead of the game for over 2 years, since they had the balls before launch (CNT B/junior team was using the 40+ ball since 2014 already) and DHS were the best "hard rubber" makers in the world too.

Butterfly before Dignic or T05 Hard came out, already gave its sponsored players a harder sponge T05 for many years.
T05 Hard came out due to the commercial demand for Hard.
Butterfly lost a lot of market share for FH rubber in Asia in this period.

I think Butterfly also sat on the Tenergy successful wagon for far too long and didn't make D09C come out early enough. T05 Hard in my opinion was also a bit late to the game.

So look at from Dignics, Rozena to the rubber coming out in 10 days time, compared to 2016 when the new ball came out, Butterfly has been very busy to "dominate" the market again. Some calling Butterfly's recent strategy as the ESN killer.
We all know it won't touch DHS FH rubber market share, but with Rozena success in Asia, they hoping for a better success with Glayzer for the rest of the world.

Imo, all Butterfly needs to do is make a special of 20% for Rozena + Glayzer, and then ESN is bye bye

 

[hclnnkhg]

Butterfly always had a semi tack.
I tried tackifire many years ago, this was before I even knew ESN existed.

ESN was like, let me make some rubbers to copy butterfly. let me make some to copy DHS.

When the ball went 40+ (which was 2016), hard sponge rubbers was needed.
DHS obviously was ahead of the game for over 2 years, since they had the balls before launch (CNT B/junior team was using the 40+ ball since 2014 already) and DHS were the best "hard rubber" makers in the world too.

Butterfly before Dignic or T05 Hard came out, already gave its sponsored players a harder sponge T05 for many years.
T05 Hard came out due to the commercial demand for Hard.
Butterfly lost a lot of market share for FH rubber in Asia in this period.

I think Butterfly also sat on the Tenergy successful wagon for far too long and didn't make D09C come out early enough. T05 Hard in my opinion was also a bit late to the game.

So look at from Dignics, Rozena to the rubber coming out in 10 days time, compared to 2016 when the new ball came out, Butterfly has been very busy to "dominate" the market again. Some calling Butterfly's recent strategy as the ESN killer.
We all know it won't touch DHS FH rubber market share, but with Rozena success in Asia, they hoping for a better success with Glayzer for the rest of the world.

Imo, all Butterfly needs to do is make a special of 20% for Rozena + Glayzer, and then ESN is bye bye

Are there any reports publicly available for the market shares?
I'd expect ESN to survive as long as they still have Truls, Hugo (is XIOM rubbers ESN?), Lebruns, Gauzy etc.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Are there any reports publicly available for the market shares?
I'd expect ESN to survive as long as they still have Truls, Hugo (is XIOM rubbers ESN?), Lebruns, Gauzy etc.

I don't think there is one for world wide.
Butterfly has one for world championships for example.
Japan has one, of which Japanese brands dominate.

Each brands has an idea on how much percentage they are at in each country.
So these pieces of puzzle do add up to something that can be used.

ESN only advantage is price over Butterfly.
If ESN is priced the same as Butterfly, and Butterfly say has similiar performance (or better), and if Butterfly's durability is better, would you think the super star influence still keep ESN sales going?

 

[hclnnkhg]

I don't think there is one for world wide.
Butterfly has one for world championships for example.
Japan has one, of which Japanese brands dominate.

Each brands has an idea on how much percentage they are at in each country.
So these pieces of puzzle do add up to something that can be used.

ESN only advantage is price over Butterfly.
If ESN is priced the same as Butterfly, and Butterfly say has similiar performance (or better), and if Butterfly's durability is better, would you think the super star influence still keep ESN sales going?

I don't think making Rozena/Glayzer cheaper would do the trick, Butterfly would at least need to reduce the price of Tenergies if not Dignics to knock top ESN rubbers like Platinums, Rasanters and Omegas out of the market.

I'm in the UK, and the price of Tenergies in local stores are in the same range as the other three I mentioned (~60 GBP). Dignics are 80~90 GBP for reference.

 

[Choosikick]

I don't think there is one for world wide.
Butterfly has one for world championships for example.
Japan has one, of which Japanese brands dominate.

Each brands has an idea on how much percentage they are at in each country.
So these pieces of puzzle do add up to something that can be used.

ESN only advantage is price over Butterfly.
If ESN is priced the same as Butterfly, and Butterfly say has similiar performance (or better), and if Butterfly's durability is better, would you think the super star influence still keep ESN sales going?

Tony, at first you write that you support healthy competition, but then you pour water on the butterfly mill, humiliating the ESN and healthy market competition. The fact that the Butterfly will be forced to reduce the prices of its products is primarily the merit of competitors, and all of us, inventory buyers, will benefit from this.

 

[Choosikick]

Are there any reports publicly available for the market shares?
I'd expect ESN to survive as long as they still have Truls, Hugo (is XIOM rubbers ESN?), Lebruns, Gauzy etc.

As far as I know, rubber for the Xiom company is produced by the ESN plant. Xiom blades are produced at a factory in South Korea, by the way, very high quality and much cheaper Butterfly

 

[blahness]

For me, I wish DHS could develop something like Butterfly's spring sponge X technology to combine with their tacky topsheets (Hurricane 8-80 is already amazing but imagine them having access to Dignics sponge)....

 

[NextLevel]

For me, I wish DHS could develop something like Butterfly's spring sponge X technology to combine with their tacky topsheets (Hurricane 8-80 is already amazing but imagine them having access to Dignics sponge)....

I am not always convinced that the non-linearity of the Dignics sponge is a good thing. But I will admit to each his own.

 

[Choosikick]

Butterfly always had a semi tack.
I tried tackifire many years ago, this was before I even knew ESN existed.

ESN was like, let me make some rubbers to copy butterfly. let me make some to copy DHS.

When the ball went 40+ (which was 2016), hard sponge rubbers was needed.
DHS obviously was ahead of the game for over 2 years, since they had the balls before launch (CNT B/junior team was using the 40+ ball since 2014 already) and DHS were the best "hard rubber" makers in the world too.

Butterfly before Dignic or T05 Hard came out, already gave its sponsored players a harder sponge T05 for many years.
T05 Hard came out due to the commercial demand for Hard.
Butterfly lost a lot of market share for FH rubber in Asia in this period.

I think Butterfly also sat on the Tenergy successful wagon for far too long and didn't make D09C come out early enough. T05 Hard in my opinion was also a bit late to the game.

So look at from Dignics, Rozena to the rubber coming out in 10 days time, compared to 2016 when the new ball came out, Butterfly has been very busy to "dominate" the market again. Some calling Butterfly's recent strategy as the ESN killer.
We all know it won't touch DHS FH rubber market share, but with Rozena success in Asia, they hoping for a better success with Glayzer for the rest of the world.

Imo, all Butterfly needs to do is make a special of 20% for Rozena + Glayzer, and then ESN is bye bye

Everything seems to be so, but not quite so. At the time of the ban on fast glue, Butterfly and other rubber manufacturers were in the same conditions and no one asked anyone for anything. Then there was a ban and lo and behold! Butterfly has a ready-made new pre-stretched sponge! Very strange, don't find it. ESN did not copy it impudently and violate copyrights and went their own way, while Butterfly occupied the market, skimmed the cream and raised the prices of goods. Yes, the path for the ESN turned out to be not fast, but this is the way and now the players with the ESN inventory performed better in Singapore, in my opinion, than the players with the Butterfly inventory. Something like this.

 

[blahness]

I am not always convinced that the non-linearity of the Dignics sponge is a good thing. But I will admit to each his own.

It's not so much about linearity (ie force input vs speed output), but the way it increases the dwell time so much, even with a non tacky topsheet - maybe it's the tangential coefficient of restitution here?

 

[Choosikick]

For me, I wish DHS could develop something like Butterfly's spring sponge X technology to combine with their tacky topsheets (Hurricane 8-80 is already amazing but imagine them having access to Dignics sponge)....

I agree, but it would be even better if another manufacturer like Yinhe did it. They have cool topsheets (Big Dipper and Jupiter), the price is cheaper and for us tennis players, the more manufacturers with high-quality and inexpensive goods, the better!

 

[hclnnkhg]

I agree, but it would be even better if another manufacturer like Yinhe did it. They have cool topsheets (Big Dipper and Jupiter), the price is cheaper and for us tennis players, the more manufacturers with high-quality and inexpensive goods, the better!

That would be nice, however I have noticed that most recent developments from non-DHS Chinese brands have been on blades with all kinds of ALC. Maybe it is more difficult to crack the code of rubbers.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Tony, at first you write that you support healthy competition, but then you pour water on the butterfly mill, humiliating the ESN and healthy market competition. The fact that the Butterfly will be forced to reduce the prices of its products is primarily the merit of competitors, and all of us, inventory buyers, will benefit from this.

Because ESN is raising pricing non stop.
So either both company is pushing pricing to over the top (but now Butterfly is dropping pricing with new ranges)

End of the day, table tennis brands are mostly OEM
many don't make they own blades, most of them don't make rubbers. They don't even make anything, they are a mere sales and marketing company.

And with how ESN operates, new rubber every year, and almost all but Chinese/Japanese brands on the band wagon, it is not good for table tennis business. I mean, what can Donic, Stiga, Tibhar, Xiom do about ESN price increases?
Either take it from the bottom line, or take it from the top line right?

Both ESN and Butterfly is not good, but who drop prices and makes it better for the consumer will be good.
Rozena is the top seller in Japan for example, with G1 at second and T05 dropping to 3, D09C and D05 is 9 and 10.
Other ESN on that list is C1, Riganspin, Rigan and Vega Euro at 4, 6, 7 and 8

Looking for to Glayzer being the ESN killer and maybe pricing can stop climbing!

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

That would be nice, however I have noticed that most recent developments from non-DHS Chinese brands have been on blades with all kinds of ALC. Maybe it is more difficult to crack the code of rubbers.

Rubbers is difficult indeed.

Certain forum member praises cheap Chinese rubber performances.
Its all good at low level play, but in high level play, many non DHS Chinese rubbers are not reliable enough.

For example, Yinhe sponsors how many Chinese national/prov players? non of them uses Yinhe rubbers.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Everything seems to be so, but not quite so. At the time of the ban on fast glue, Butterfly and other rubber manufacturers were in the same conditions and no one asked anyone for anything. Then there was a ban and lo and behold! Butterfly has a ready-made new pre-stretched sponge! Very strange, don't find it. ESN did not copy it impudently and violate copyrights and went their own way, while Butterfly occupied the market, skimmed the cream and raised the prices of goods. Yes, the path for the ESN turned out to be not fast, but this is the way and now the players with the ESN inventory performed better in Singapore, in my opinion, than the players with the Butterfly inventory. Something like this.

very simple, Butterfly making they own rubbers made use of the transitional period.
Bryce Speed first came out, then Tenergy family.

When T05 was established, how many ESN generations tried to do better?
The best is maybe MX-P, but after a month, it needs to be replaced. Life spam on high level is half of that of T05 or in the same range as DHS. Of course, high level, it is free, so not a problem.

MX-P has good market share in the west, close to zero in Asia.

 

[hclnnkhg]

Because ESN is raising pricing non stop.
So either both company is pushing pricing to over the top (but now Butterfly is dropping pricing with new ranges)

End of the day, table tennis brands are mostly OEM
many don't make they own blades, most of them don't make rubbers. They don't even make anything, they are a mere sales and marketing company.

And with how ESN operates, new rubber every year, and almost all but Chinese/Japanese brands on the band wagon, it is not good for table tennis business. I mean, what can Donic, Stiga, Tibhar, Xiom do about ESN price increases?
Either take it from the bottom line, or take it from the top line right?

Both ESN and Butterfly is not good, but who drop prices and makes it better for the consumer will be good.
Rozena is the top seller in Japan for example, with G1 at second and T05 dropping to 3, D09C and D05 is 9 and 10.
Only ESN on that list is Riganspin, Rigan and Vega Euro at 6, 7 and 8

Looking for to Glayzer being the ESN killer and maybe pricing can stop climbing!

Japan TT players have their own unique perferences. I remember seeing Mark V in top 10 like forever...

On the other hand, wouldn't ESN raising price v.s. Butterfly dropping price on Rozena/Glayzer suggests that ESN is catching up with Butterfly? IMO price rising is inevitable, even with Chinese rubbers...

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Japan TT players have their own unique perferences. I remember seeing Mark V in top 10 like forever...

On the other hand, wouldn't ESN raising price v.s. Butterfly dropping price on Rozena/Glayzer suggests that ESN is catching up with Butterfly? IMO price rising is inevitable, even with Chinese rubbers...

Mark V has been on there for,,,20 years straight? lol
This just shows that you don't need to buy expensive equipment.
Japanese market is very mature. Players at 6 years old will start off with Mark V. The amount of 6~8 years old start out every year (and changing rubbers 6 months) is enough to make it the top 5 selling rubber in Japan.

ESN is raising prices to basically more expensive than Tenergy levels
Butterfly is dropping prices to hurt ESN 2nd tier levels
Butterfly wants to take back lost market share from DHS and in the same time strangle ESN
In terms of ESN quality, it has always been playing the catching up game, if it is 80% the same, with 60% the price, I think ESN can have a good time. But 80% the same, 80% the price (or higher).... I don't know hey.

 

[hclnnkhg]

Mark V has been on there for,,,20 years straight? lol
This just shows that you don't need to buy expensive equipment.
Japanese market is very mature. Players at 6 years old will start off with Mark V. The amount of 6~8 years old start out every year (and changing rubbers 6 months) is enough to make it the top 5 selling rubber in Japan.

ESN is raising prices to basically more expensive than Tenergy levels
Butterfly is dropping prices to hurt ESN 2nd tier levels
Butterfly wants to take back lost market share from DHS and in the same time strangle ESN
In terms of ESN quality, it has always been playing the catching up game, if it is 80% the same, with 60% the price, I think ESN can have a good time. But 80% the same, 80% the price (or higher).... I don't know hey.

The Japanese should learn more about affordable Chinese rubbers!

I agree that expensive equipments are not necessary, at least until what I consider to be "advanced" level. My previous setup had top ESN rubbers (MXS, Omega 7 Euro) which are great when I am looping a few meters away from the table. But I rarely does that in a match, nor I can do that consistently under pressure. My current setup is half the price and I feel more control with it, while having enough speed and spin to play my game.

I am open to changing my opinion if there is a bat that can make me move quicker...

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

The Japanese should learn more about affordable Chinese rubbers!

I agree that expensive equipments are not necessary, at least until what I consider to be "advanced" level. My previous setup had top ESN rubbers (MXS, Omega 7 Euro) which are great when I am looping a few meters away from the table. But I rarely does that in a match, nor I can do that consistently under pressure. My current setup is half the price and I feel more control with it, while having enough speed and spin to play my game.

I am open to changing my opinion if there is a bat that can make me move quicker...

Oh, this Asian thing about Japanese using Korean or Chinese has its historical challenges. It is beyond table tennis.

It may just be one of those European French versus British things.

In fact, cheap Chinese rubbers in the top 4 table tennis countries in Asia, are really not that popular.

 

[hclnnkhg]

Oh, this Asian thing about Japanese using Korean or Chinese has its historical challenges. It is beyond table tennis.

It may just be one of those European French versus British things.

In fact, cheap Chinese rubbers in the top 4 table tennis countries in Asia, are really not that popular.

The Chinese certainly don't have a problem with using Japanese Butterfly rubbers