WTT Macao 2023

[dingyibvs]

Alexis is an amazing talent, and I do agree with the commentator that Ma Long is just an incredible player due to the way he can adjust to everything. You can't outsmart ML, you just need to outrally him.

IMO attributing Alexis' genius to his being European is doing Alexis' talent a disservice. I mean, how many Europeans play like Alexis? How many have had the success he's had at his age? If he can continue to regularly give the Chinese trouble, he'd be the first European to do so since the 42 years old Timo Boll. If he can have a roughly even record against the top Chinese, he'd be the first European to do so since Waldner and Persson. Speaking of those European greats, while Waldner was another genius, Persson and Boll played pretty standard games.

 

[Kopp]

ML played patiently. Alexis had all it took to take down the Dragon but he grew impatient. Alexis just made too many unforced errors.

For example, if Alexis returned ML's serve high, ML got the point 100% of the time. When ML returned high, Alexis missed quite a lot of easy opportunities.

It's a shame that Alexis blew the opportunity. He was so close to winning the match.

In addition, AL lost his temper during the 4th game. IMHO, it was a huge mistake. When he showed his frustration, ML gained confident and took advantage of the situation.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Alexis is an amazing talent, and I do agree with the commentator that Ma Long is just an incredible player due to the way he can adjust to everything. You can't outsmart ML, you just need to outrally him.

IMO attributing Alexis' genius to his being European is doing Alexis' talent a disservice. I mean, how many Europeans play like Alexis? How many have had the success he's had at his age? If he can continue to regularly give the Chinese trouble, he'd be the first European to do so since the 42 years old Timo Boll. If he can have a roughly even record against the top Chinese, he'd be the first European to do so since Waldner and Persson. Speaking of those European greats, while Waldner was another genius, Persson and Boll played pretty standard games.

Recent Europeans, should have Dima in the era since Timo Boll.
Obviously since his injury, Dima haven't been the same, but for a long time he was WR top 5 including WR1 when he was around 29 years old.

Dima's era has been overshadowed with 2 "one in a century" talent of Ma Long and Zhang Jike (these 2 make the rest of CNT looks so fragile)

If you want to go further back to the Waldner era, then i'm sure it is only fair to add in the former world champion, Werner Schlager and also the ever green friendly giant, Vladimir Samsonov (Former WR1 too)

There are also other legends that should be in there, but let me just keep it to the "more recent" ones post Waldner.

Alexis is still young, he still has a lot to overcome.
He will be studied, he will need to keep transforming. Its not easy to be the number 1 target for China, since the resource CNT has is beyond any other.

 

[superbackhand]

Hmm so it's she's basically changing the racket angle rather than the force direction? That would make sense. So from what I see she starts with a slightly closed racket angle and her followthrough is racket angle is always super open racket angle. When I do it this way I can only get heavy sideunderspin and never heavy sidetopspin which I think is the real killer. So that means for the sidetopspin variant she contacts at an earlier stage when the bat angle is closed and for the sideunderspin she contacts the ball later when the bat angle is open?

or you can release the grip when contact - that would give you dead to little spin

 

[dingyibvs]

Recent Europeans, should have Dima in the era since Timo Boll.
Obviously since his injury, Dima haven't been the same, but for a long time he was WR top 5 including WR1 when he was around 29 years old.

Dima's era has been overshadowed with 2 "one in a century" talent of Ma Long and Zhang Jike (these 2 make the rest of CNT looks so fragile)

If you want to go further back to the Waldner era, then i'm sure it is only fair to add in the former world champion, Werner Schlager and also the ever green friendly giant, Vladimir Samsonov (Former WR1 too)

There are also other legends that should be in there, but let me just keep it to the "more recent" ones post Waldner.

Alexis is still young, he still has a lot to overcome.
He will be studied, he will need to keep transforming. Its not easy to be the number 1 target for China, since the resource CNT has is beyond any other.

Dima has a solid record against FZD, he hasn't given other top Chinese players of his generation much trouble (ML, ZJK, XX). More importantly I don't think he's beaten any top Chinese in a premier tournament unlike Boll. Samsonov is more on Boll level, he has nowhere near an even record against his Chinese contemporaries like WLQ and MLin. Waldner is 7-7 vs. KLH and 4-5 vs. LGL, also won plenty in premier tournaments against them, hence the last European to be on equal footing with the Chinese. Schlager is in the same era, but older than Waldner, and I stopped at Waldner so didn't include the other European greats.

 

[SFF_lib]

In addition, AL lost his temper during the 4th game. IMHO, it was a huge mistake. When he showed his frustration, ML gained confident and took advantage of the situation.

Being a 19yo, he shouldn’t have anything to lose. It could be the fact that he eliminated FZD giving him extra pressure to perform well.

 

[SFF_lib]

Alexis is an amazing talent, and I do agree with the commentator that Ma Long is just an incredible player due to the way he can adjust to everything. You can't outsmart ML, you just need to outrally him.

IMO attributing Alexis' genius to his being European is doing Alexis' talent a disservice. I mean, how many Europeans play like Alexis? How many have had the success he's had at his age? If he can continue to regularly give the Chinese trouble, he'd be the first European to do so since the 42 years old Timo Boll. If he can have a roughly even record against the top Chinese, he'd be the first European to do so since Waldner and Persson. Speaking of those European greats, while Waldner was another genius, Persson and Boll played pretty standard games.

Alexis has to continue to innovate and change. According to Adam, Alexis picture has been put on the hall of greatest opponent. The CNT will study him inside out.

I guess it’s an honour for him 😂 but it means he must develop new tactics and skills

 

[Egon]

Among all the European players in this tournament, players with equipment from Tibhar played the best. Vladimir Samsonov, who often beat Asian players, also played Tibhar. Coincidence?

 

[dingyibvs]

Among all the European players in this tournament, players with equipment from Tibhar played the best. Vladimir Samsonov, who often beat Asian players, also played Tibhar. Coincidence?

Gonna have to change your name to _TIBHAR_ soon 😂

 

[OldUser]

He's not getting you wrong. You're getting yourself wrong by being condescending and borderline racist without realizing it.

Ok we've got another woke guy trying to call other names...

You want it ? you got it

 

[Egon]

Gonna have to change your name to _TIBHAR_ soon 😂

To be honest, with Tibhar I have only fond memories when I played Tibhar Rapid.
And Joola Cava was the first love at first sight...

 

[Egon]

Just the other day, I thought that Tibhar was having a bad time with marketing after Samsonov, and then Alexis beats Fan .
I had a similar situation with Stiga before the appearance of Moregard with Cybershape. I was sitting on the Stiga website and got bored, studying their blades, thinking, well, where is something new, where is innovation, everything is somehow traditional and outdated, and then bam! Cybershape appears and Moregard bursts from the depths of the rating into the top ten with this blade.

 

[OldUser]

Alexis is an amazing talent, and I do agree with the commentator that Ma Long is just an incredible player due to the way he can adjust to everything. You can't outsmart ML, you just need to outrally him.

IMO attributing Alexis' genius to his being European is doing Alexis' talent a disservice. I mean, how many Europeans play like Alexis? How many have had the success he's had at his age? If he can continue to regularly give the Chinese trouble, he'd be the first European to do so since the 42 years old Timo Boll. If he can have a roughly even record against the top Chinese, he'd be the first European to do so since Waldner and Persson. Speaking of those European greats, while Waldner was another genius, Persson and Boll played pretty standard games.

Ok so I'm gonna paste what zeio transcribed, as he's from china. We had that discussion in another about the europe/asian difference in youth talents maturation

zeio's original post is here http://mytabletennis.net/forum/topic92876_page1.html#1140606

"Took the time to transcribe the first video now that it's all but certain the Lebrun brothers have been promoted to the Great Wall of Opponents.

@0:22
发球就有六七套，国外年轻选手前三板技术已领先我们，威胁越来越大
https://video.weibo.com/show?fid=1034:4857019086340150
主教练 王超 河南省乒乓球男队
Head Coach Wang Chao Henan Men's Table Tennis Team

今年(2022年)我看了几站公开赛
This year (2022), I watched a few Opens
像法国�£个
like that French
兄弟俩还有
brothers and
瑞典�£个叫什么高德
What is the name of the Swedish one?
莫雷高德 这几个小孩
Moregard, those children
他们你看 首先他们变化很多
Looking at them, first thing is they have a lot of variations
他们对球这种理�£就是我一看
Their comprehension of table tennis is, from what I see
他发球都有五六甚至六七套
He has 5, 6 or even 7 sets of serve
你像(艾利克斯·勒布伦)
Like (Alexis Lebrun)
法国这个横板 他是哥哥吧
the shakehander of France, he is the older brother, right?
他这打球这种技战术变化特别多
He plays with a lot of technical and tactical variations
就跟这个老的这种概念
Unlike the old concept
咱们就是(发球)两套三套都不错了
For us, just having 2 to 3 sets (of serve) is already decent
中规中矩
Moderate
他现在是一会这样发一会�£样发
Now he serves this way here and that way there
就是你很难适应的
it's hard for you to adapt
就变化特别多
lots of variations
而且他弟弟(菲利克斯·勒布伦)的直板
And there is his penholder brother (Felix Lebrun)
他这个反手技术不比咱们国家(选手)
His backhand technique is not below our (players)
差 他们一直在模仿
They have been imitating
一直他们自己在咱们的前提下
They have been, under our premise
他们还有改进 我觉得
They improve upon that, I think
我问的法国这个
I asked
以前我的队友刘芳
my former teammate Liu Fang in France
说法国这两个兄弟是不是中国人
Are the two French brothers coached by Chinese?
带他们 说不是
She said no
他们也是从小就开始全天候的训练
They also started training around the clock from an early age
跟咱们中国这种一样
Same as us in China
他就不读书天天练
They don't study and practice every day
还是不一样
They are not typical
你像同龄来说咱们不好赢人家 同龄的
At the same age, it is not easy for us to win, the same age
包括
Also
瑞典的莫雷高德他的球就是
Moregard of Sweden, his game is
挺快挺凶的
quite fast and aggressive
他就是后面他不跟你打
He is the one who doesn't play out the point with you
前面前三板技术我觉得他们现在已经
In terms of third ball techniques, I think they now
可能已经超过咱们 [一些]
may have surpassed us [by a bit]
我觉得我个人(认为)
I think, I personally (think)
就他们球变化多特别凶
As far as their variations and aggressiveness
咱们现在相对来说好像就是
relatively speaking, we now seem to be
怎麼说呢
how to put it
偏稳了一点
a bit on the safe side
就前面发接发球变化
Say service and receive variations
咱们我觉得有点偏单一了一点
I think we are a little bit simplistic
就跟他们这几个人相比
compared to them
就他们可能也�£表欧洲
They may also represent Europe's
下面的一个潮流
trend down the road
对我们我觉得还是有一定的威胁
I think they still pose a certain threat to us
因为他们小啊现在
because they are young now
他(莫雷高德)继承一些老瓦的特点
He (Moregard) inherited some of Waldner's characteristics
一些特点
some traits
有时他们打球你觉得很
Sometimes they play and you feel strongly
就是没有什么常规的这种感觉
that there's no pattern
东弄一下西弄一下
here and there
你很难 不好适应
Very difficult for you to adapt
对 他就是变化比较多
Right, he has relatively more variations
国外队员都有一个特点
Foreign players have a common trait
你像日本这些队员包括他们国外(其他选手)
like those of Japan, and the other overseas (players)
他比赛打太多了
He plays so many competitions
他国际比赛比你丰富的多
His international competition is much richer than yours
咱们现在基本上都没打过什么比赛
We have hardly played any competitions now
因为这三年疫情在这
because of the pandemic the past 3 years
好多就包括别说省队了
Many, not to mention the provincial teams
国家队队员好多
many national team players
比赛机会也不多
not many chances to play
就是你一比咱们天天就是练
In comparison, we practice every day
人家天天在赛
and they compete every day
你上去你容易发蒙
You get disoriented easily when you get up there at first
他变化特别多
He has a lot of variations
所以这方面也是
So in this aspect
就是这种(有差距)
there is (a gap)
如果像咱们省队 包括我们这的队员
If our provincial teams, including our players
你如果全部让他们去
if you let them all go out
扔出去打打比赛
throw them out there to compete
他就好的多
they would be much better
比赛经验这个
Match experience is
是通过比赛积累的
accumulated through competitions
不是说你光训练 你达不到�£个
You can't achieve that through mere practice
很难达到�£个
Very hard to achieve that
心理状态
mental state
你不好去提高了
It's not easy to improve that
比赛这种能力是必须通过比赛去提高
The ability to compete must be improved through competition

I HATE when people only want to read the few lines that only suits their agenda dingiybvs. Your woke agenda sucks. Period.

To me it's great thing that players show some traits of their culture in their game, the chinese dominant trait is to respect the only 3 or 4 tactics that are SURE to win, it's efficient cos' it's easier to teach a textbook like this one to hundreds of millions of people. It's easy to understand, easy to reproduce to the vast majority of people. That's why defenders and penholders are slowly disappearing too. BUT that philosophy based on building the strongest contingent of damn efficient players ... work !


The european philosphy is completely different, first thing first:Europe is not the TT continent anymore, it's the football one. As I was saying to zeio and at it seems to happen in Germany now, TT is not the sport that is largely taught, not as football, or handball, or tennis, or rugby, or basket ball. There's a huge amount of money going to youth development in those sports, but not in TT.

so you have to do the things differently, as you cannot build a strong contingent based on only 3 or 4 textbook tactics that would literally make the young europeans run away from the TT halls, they instead analyse first what is the personality of the player, and the accent is made also on improvisation, they adapt to each kid, and that's why it's also very difficult to train and coach in Europe because the club have a totally different philosophy about how training the kids. Not saying it's better or worse, it's... different.

The problem with that is that it works only for a very few players, as the chinese system works for all. But when it works, you get true gems of players that can improvise.

As a musician loving both classical and jazz music: the chinese textbook is a kind of classical music system, and the european one is more jazz, with all thetrials and errors you can get in jazz "you're only one semi-tone away from the right note, your improvisation solo was sometimes weird but also brilliant" meaning in TT "take risk, don't be scared to improvise, don't worry it willl always work at some point".

the perfect player would be a kind of Gershwin/Bernstein/Christian Vander (Magma) clone that could be able to mix the maximum number of play styles. But we all know those geniuses only occur 2 or 3 times in a century...

There are the fundamentals to learn, for sure, and then there are the the "what do you do now with this knowledge ? what do you REALLY want to do ?"

 

[OldUser]

Among all the European players in this tournament, players with equipment from Tibhar played the best. Vladimir Samsonov, who often beat Asian players, also played Tibhar. Coincidence?

Waldner played with Banda then Donic, Gatien with Stiga then Yasaka, and Saive with Andro then Stiga. Those were the chinese beaters way before Boll or Samsonov, in 1993, the chinese players could not reach the semis of the WTTC in Goteborg.

The thing with Tibhar is that it's historically the most consistent and loyal partner for France, as Butterfly is for Germany. The contract the Lebrun bros. got with Tibhar was no match for Butterfly: it's not only equipment for the players, signature blades with a percentage on sales, it's litteraly money, cash, and all the equipment needed for ALL the staff, kine, physios, coaches until 2028

Patrick Chila's blade is still in the Tibhar's catalogue, Damien Eloi had one too, Lebesson has one still in the catalogue, all the equipment was provided by Tibhar before Victas only a few years ago. and it lasted for decades before the Victas era.

 

[Egon]

And one more night thought. Isn't it time for Hugo to change inventory? In my opinion, he is one person in the top ten who does not play with sticky rubbers, correct me if I'm wrong

 

[blahness]

or you can release the grip when contact - that would give you dead to little spin

I know how to serve dead - just want to get the very heavy sidetopspin serve which causes havoc to receivers, ideally with the same downwards movement.

 

[blahness]

Alexis is an amazing talent, and I do agree with the commentator that Ma Long is just an incredible player due to the way he can adjust to everything. You can't outsmart ML, you just need to outrally him.

IMO attributing Alexis' genius to his being European is doing Alexis' talent a disservice. I mean, how many Europeans play like Alexis? How many have had the success he's had at his age? If he can continue to regularly give the Chinese trouble, he'd be the first European to do so since the 42 years old Timo Boll. If he can have a roughly even record against the top Chinese, he'd be the first European to do so since Waldner and Persson. Speaking of those European greats, while Waldner was another genius, Persson and Boll played pretty standard games.

I know a lot of people like him who automatically think Chinese = robots who only know how to copy the "ingenious white Europeans/Americans" no matter the discipline, and refuse to revise their thinking in light of facts other people raise. It's useless to argue with such people, because these racist thinking patterns are ingrained too deep into their psyche, they don't even realise it. Somehow, they also like to accuse other people of being snowflakes, but they're always the first to become angry when others say things they don't like. For eg, I bet you he's also really "happy" about black immigrants flooding France and snatching all their women, and half of their beloved "football team" which achieved all their successes is black lol 😂

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Dima has a solid record against FZD, he hasn't given other top Chinese players of his generation much trouble (ML, ZJK, XX). More importantly I don't think he's beaten any top Chinese in a premier tournament unlike Boll. Samsonov is more on Boll level, he has nowhere near an even record against his Chinese contemporaries like WLQ and MLin. Waldner is 7-7 vs. KLH and 4-5 vs. LGL, also won plenty in premier tournaments against them, hence the last European to be on equal footing with the Chinese. Schlager is in the same era, but older than Waldner, and I stopped at Waldner so didn't include the other European greats.

Hm. not sure where you get your age calculation from
Waldner is 7 years older than Schlager.
Schlager became world champion exactly 20 years ago - when he was 30 years old
he was number 3, 4 years prior, so age 26. (including 2nd place in the world cup in the same year)
Waldner was last, world champion in 1997, 6 years before Schalger

Since ML and ZJK are so rare, there isn't much players giving them much trouble. Ma Long should of retired 2 years ago, but with mutli million dollar advertising money every year while he is a player, there isn't much reason for him to retire and to cash out his long term investments as long as he can.

ML and ZJK set the standard so high, I don't see any Chinese player fulling those spot.

also note, these best out of 5s today would allow more upsets than best out of 7s of the previous era (11 point era)

 

[NextLevel]

Hm. not sure where you get your age calculation from
Waldner is 7 years older than Schlager.
Schlager became world champion exactly 20 years ago - when he was 30 years old
he was number 3, 4 years prior, so age 26. (including 2nd place in the world cup in the same year)
Waldner was last, world champion in 1997, 6 years before Schalger

Since ML and ZJK are so rare, there isn't much players giving them much trouble. Ma Long should of retired 2 years ago, but with mutli million dollar advertising money every year while he is a player, there isn't much reason for him to retire and to cash out his long term investments as long as he can.

ML and ZJK set the standard so high, I don't see any Chinese player fulling those spot.

also note, these best out of 5s today would allow more upsets than best out of 7s of the previous era (11 point era)

ML, FZD, and to a lesser degree ZJK, XX and WH have given people a skewed view of table tennis success. I also blame the lack of young strong players coming out of Europe, a point zeio has made. I used to think the issue was Chinese dominance but when you realize that the best 3 European players of the last decade were Boll, Ovtcharov and Samsonov, the problem becomes clear that Europe just didn't produce any TT players to replace the Waldner generation, people like Saive, Primorac, Schlager played for too long and a few others with promise like Maze got injured. People put down Dima for not beating the Chinese but he is clearly the best European player of his generation. If Japan didn't have its youth movement, Mizutani and Niwa would still be playing. While the likes of Moregardh and Lebrun can be studied, the difference is clear to me that the new young guys play with a combination of speed, athleticism, power and variation that was just missing from the people who dominated the last generation of new comers. So it will be far more interesting to see what the Chinese come up with to lock up these new upcoming players. Because when Lebrun plays the forehand pivot, you could replace him with a Chinese player and no one would tell the difference. So he has the power that someone like Niwa clearly lacked.

That Boll can still medal in 2021 is a big symptom of the the problem. Thankfully Moregardh gave him a bronze so that is a sign of the solution. Europe just needs to develop more great players and I think there are clearly much more coming out from France and Poland that will make TT more interesting and keep the CNT excited.

Don't get me wrong, the problem is not uniquely European, if Lin Yun Ju did not exist for example, CCY would still be clearly on top of Taiwan and I have discussed Japan as well. Korea is also trying to get players. But the dominance of players into the 40s in countries in Europe is a symptom of the problem.

 

[Ghostzen]

I know a lot of people like him who automatically think Chinese = robots who only know how to copy the "ingenious white Europeans/Americans" no matter the discipline, and refuse to revise their thinking in light of facts other people raise. It's useless to argue with such people, because these racist thinking patterns are ingrained too deep into their psyche, they don't even realise it. Somehow, they also like to accuse other people of being snowflakes, but they're always the first to become angry when others say things they don't like. For eg, I bet you he's also really "happy" about black immigrants flooding France and snatching all their women, and half of their beloved "football team" which achieved all their successes is black lol 😂

I wouldn't normally comment of this but there's quite a bit of negative thought in that statement above that was written. Unexpected to be honest.... This place and users are normally quite light hearted... as well.