Don't blame the rubber if you don't get enough spin.

[blahness]

maybe BB could reach those rps figures with the bare blade , why bother with
rubbers ? 😁

It's funny, he ignores everything that is not beneficial to himself.

According to his equation, he should be able to achieve these rps values with a bare blade indeed!

 

[brokenball]

It's funny, he ignores everything that is not beneficial to himself.

Would you stop lying? I never said it could be done with a bare blade.

According to his equation, he should be able to achieve these rps values with a bare blade indeed!

You are simply clueless. There must be friction to spin the ball. The ball would simply slide off a bare blade.
DO YOU FEEL STUPID YET!
A dead rubber can still have friction. Above, some one pointed out that angular impulse is torque x contact time.
Can you explain how one creates a torque on the ball without friction?
Think about why a ball rolls off an almost horizontal rubber. You haven't answer this question yet. Until you can you are clueless.

 

[NextLevel]

Title thread: “Don't blame the rubber if you don't get enough spin. It's your fault.”

Your reply of your own video clip, when answering why you don’t get enough spin:

????????



I don’t get it.

Should everybody else on the forum blame their technique and not their rubbers.

But you can blame your lack of spin on the equipment and don’t need to blame your lack of technique.

Whose fault is it that you couldn’t spin the ball? You or your equipment???

But I agree with you. If you can’t spin the ball with a Tenergy rubber. Don’t blame the rubber. It’s your own fault.

This should end the discussion completely, but he just can't stop himself.

 

[brokenball]

This should end the discussion completely, but he just can't stop himself.

I was willing to stop a long time ago people people keep making stupid posts.
Next level posted a video that he doesn't understand. He can't explain where the 300% increase in tension comes from. I can't understand why he posted something he can't explain.
The same goes for Zeio and the claim that women can power drive and still spin the ball at 180 rps.
Blahness doesn't seem to be able to understand that friction is required to create spin. Try creating spin with a frictionless anti. Actually frictionless anti has some friction. That is why the ball rolls off the almost horizontal paddle.

You guys want to end the thread because it is an embarrassment. You guys would have been better off say I agree and not digging holes for yourselves.
A quote comes to mind
"Better to remain quiet and thought a fool than speak and remove all doubt"

 

[NextLevel]

I was willing to stop a long time ago people people keep making stupid posts.
Next level posted a video that he doesn't understand. He can't explain where the 300% increase in tension comes from. I can't understand why he posted something he can't explain.
The same goes for Zeio and the claim that women can power drive and still spin the ball at 180 rps.
Blahness doesn't seem to be able to understand that friction is required to create spin. Try creating spin with a frictionless anti. Actually frictionless anti has some friction. That is why the ball rolls off the almost horizontal paddle.

You guys want to end the thread because it is an embarrassment. You guys would have been better off say I agree and not digging holes for yourselves.
A quote comes to mind
"Better to remain quiet and thought a fool than speak and remove all doubt"

The main reason why you still post here is because Carl lets you. You have been banned from multiple forums (including this one) because you are a low level player who doesn't understand what he is talking about and likes to pretend that his understanding of engineering is a good excuse for low level table tennis play.

You can reference the video that you claim I posted that I don't undersstand.

Can you explain what you meant by this advice:

"Your FH stroke looks concave to me. That isn't good because the attitude of the paddle changes all the time."

 

[JustANoob]

Title thread: “Don't blame the rubber if you don't get enough spin. It's your fault.”

Your reply of your own video clip, when answering why you don’t get enough spin:

????????



I don’t get it.

Should everybody else on the forum blame their technique and not their rubbers.

But you can blame your lack of spin on the equipment and don’t need to blame your lack of technique.

Whose fault is it that you couldn’t spin the ball? You or your equipment???

But I agree with you. If you can’t spin the ball with a Tenergy rubber. Don’t blame the rubber. It’s your own fault.

The English language has a perfect word for such a person/behavior:

Hypocrite.

 

[NextLevel]

The English language has a perfect word for such a person/behavior:

Hypocrite.

Trolling level exhibited by brokenball - infinite. Shows that he is just looking for ways to insult people, he doesn't really believe the nonsense he posts.

 

[lodro]

he doesn't really believe the nonsense he posts.

You know, I think he does.
Megalomaniacs have an incredibly high self-believe. 🤣

 

[blahness]

Would you stop lying? I never said it could be done with a bare blade.


You are simply clueless. There must be friction to spin the ball. The ball would simply slide off a bare blade.
DO YOU FEEL STUPID YET!
A dead rubber can still have friction. Above, some one pointed out that angular impulse is torque x contact time.
Can you explain how one creates a torque on the ball without friction?
Think about why a ball rolls off an almost horizontal rubber. You haven't answer this question yet. Until you can you are clueless.

You might be on to something here - why is friction not a part of your equations if you think it is important? Doesn't that say that you're missing quite a few very important items in your equations?

 

[blahness]

Trolling level exhibited by brokenball - infinite. Shows that he is just looking for ways to insult people, he doesn't really believe the nonsense he posts.

It's funny because everyone sees the issues in his equations (even he himself sees it) but he is simply too arrogant to admit that he is plain wrong. It's quite the demonstration of ad hominem indeed.

turbozed and zeio has already shown why his simplistic equations are simply wrong lol.

It's highly ironic that he quotes "Better to remain quiet and thought a fool than speak and remove all doubt", because he doesn't follow his own advice 😂

 

[brokenball]

It's funny because everyone sees the issues in his equations (even he himself sees it) but he is simply too arrogant to admit that he is plain wrong. It's quite the demonstration of ad hominem indeed.

you haven't said what is wrong yet. Are you saying the formula is wrong that I used?

turbozed and zeio has already shown why his simplistic equations are simply wrong lol.

No they haven't. I posted a link to that simplistic equation. It is well known. It is basically the same equation used to calculate to speed of a car or how your speedometer works but some how you are too dense to see that.

You guys lie, twist, misquote, make off topic posts, insult. Do you think I will just let it pass?

It's highly ironic that he quotes "Better to remain quiet and thought a fool than speak and remove all doubt", because he doesn't follow his own advice 😂

What I have posted is correct.
You have not said what is wrong You just say it is wrong
I am still waiting for you do tell us how a TT ball rolls off a nearly horizontal paddle.
Zeio cant explain why the rps in the video are higher than what the pro men achieve.
Nextlevel can't explain why he posted a bogus video that claims 300% more tension.

Lodro is enjoying is popcorn and beer.

 

[blahness]

you haven't said what is wrong yet. Are you saying the formula is wrong that I used?


No they haven't. I posted a link to that simplistic equation. It is well known. It is basically the same equation used to calculate to speed of a car or how your speedometer works but some how you are too dense to see that.

You guys lie, twist, misquote, make off topic posts, insult. Do you think I will just let it pass?


What I have posted is correct.
You have not said what is wrong You just say it is wrong
I am still waiting for you do tell us how a TT ball rolls off a nearly horizontal paddle.
Zeio cant explain why the rps in the video are higher than what the pro men achieve.
Nextlevel can't explain why he posted a bogus video that claims 300% more tension.

Lodro is enjoying is popcorn and beer.

For starters, there's no friction in your equations, when you yourself admit that friction is very important. Hence, the equation cannot be right in the context of TT without the consideration of friction.

Zeio's link to pickleball mechanics actually contains a complete equation and model which is the correct model to use (I actually read it and understood it in full - it's not rocket science, just good old free body diagrams). I bet brokenball doesn't even know how to interpret the article and didn't even read it lol. He only knows how to repeat an equation that primary school kids learn - and the sad thing is he actually thinks he's the coolest guy on the forum for knowing that. I would question his claim of being an engineer, because I work with many, many engineers on a daily basis, and he doesn't have an engineering mindset - period.

The Physics of Pickleball Spin

A detailed analysis of the role of paddle surface roughness in spin production.

twu.tennis-warehouse.com

 

[lodro]

For starters, there's no friction in your equations, when you yourself admit that friction is very important. Hence, the equation cannot be right in the context of TT without the consideration of friction.

Zeio's link to pickleball mechanics actually contains a complete equation and model which is the correct model to use (I actually read it and understood it in full - it's not rocket science, just good old free body diagrams). I bet brokenball doesn't even know how to interpret the article and didn't even read it lol. He only knows how to repeat an equation that primary school kids learn - and the sad thing is he actually thinks he's the coolest guy on the forum for knowing that. I would question his claim of being an engineer, because I work with many, many engineers on a daily basis, and he doesn't have an engineering mindset - period.

The Physics of Pickleball Spin

A detailed analysis of the role of paddle surface roughness in spin production.

twu.tennis-warehouse.com

I found this amongst the CONCLUSION at the very end of the scientific analyses.

""""When a player feels one racket produces more spin than another, it is most likely due to the speed, spin, and angle of the ball sent by the opponent, or the player can swing faster or steeper with a particular racket or against a particular style of player. It is not because of the racket surface roughness. """"

 

[brokenball]

You might be on to something here - why is friction not a part of your equations if you think it is important? Doesn't that say that you're missing quite a few very important items in your equations?

Friction is important. That is why the ball will roll off a nearly horizontal rubber instead of slide off.
TT balls don't slide on normal TT rubbers. Antis and pips are an exception.
So what is coefficient of friction for the contact between a ball and the rubber?
It is very high so when the ball hits the rubber it grips so the surface of the ball and rubber doesn't slide. The ball on the nearly horizontal rubber does slide and the ball is not creating much for on the rubber. This is the extreme case. When the ball hit the paddle the impact force is many Newtons. Multiply the impact force by the coefficient of friction and you get the maximum tangential force that can be applied to a TT ball. Then you need to equation that was given above. Angular Impulse = torque * ∆t. There is a limit on how much torque that can be applied before there is slipping between the ball and rubber. For all practical purposes the rubber and ball grip almost instantly so if the rubber is moving tangentially the angular velocity of the TT ball is the same.

I have a simulation of the impact of a TT ball hitting a rubber at 10 m/s. The time increments are in microseconds. When the ball first touches the rubber there is no impact forceforce so there is also no tangential frictional force. As the ball penetrates the rubber the tangential frictional force increases. Eventually there is enough frictional force so the rubber and ball are "Locked" together. It doesn't take but a few micro seconds for this to happen. Remember that the TT ball rolls off the nearly horizontal rubber and it isn't apply much force on the rubber.

So the tangential paddle speed divided by the circumference of the ball yields the revolutions per second of the ball.
This is similar to cars speedometer only in reverse. The car knows the revolution per second of the wheel and the the circumference of the wheel so it can calculate the speed of the car. This assumes the car is not sliding on ice.

 

[brokenball]

For starters, there's no friction in your equations, when you yourself admit that friction is very important. Hence, the equation cannot be right in the context of TT without the consideration of friction.

That is right. It assumes that the friction is high enough so there is no slipping. Again a TT ball will roll off a nearly horizontal paddle. It doesn't slide off and the force the TT ball applies to the paddle dure to gravity is quite low.
So can you prove the TT ball slips? You can prove that the ball slips with anti rubbers and long pips.

Zeio's link to pickleball mechanics actually contains a complete equation and model which is the correct model to use (I actually read it and understood it in full - it's not rocket science, just good old free body diagrams). I bet brokenball doesn't even know how to interpret the article and didn't even read it lol. He only knows how to repeat an equation that primary school kids learn - and the sad thing is he actually thinks he's the coolest guy on the forum for knowing that. I would question his claim of being an engineer, because I work with many, many engineers on a daily basis, and he doesn't have an engineering mindset - period.

The Physics of Pickleball Spin

A detailed analysis of the role of paddle surface roughness in spin production.

twu.tennis-warehouse.com

Zeio likes to post pdfs that are full of bogus information like the post above about women getting all the spin that even you find unlikely. This time he posted a link that is full of good information about pickle ball. From what I read the physics is correct However the coefficient of friction in TT is MUCH higher than in pickle ball because TT paddles have rubber coverings where pickle ball paddles do not. Zeio's article covers a lot about a "gripping range" TT balls don't slide off the paddle.

I would like to point out that the TT forums should consider it an embarrassment that there aren't articles like zeio's pickle ball pdf for TT.
Why is the physics for TT so far behind that for pickle ball, a relatively new sport? There is plenty of information about baseballs, golf, soccer balls etc.
TT is far behind. Why is that? Why are TT players so ignorant compared to players in other sports?

 

[blahness]

That is right. It assumes that the friction is high enough so there is no slipping. Again a TT ball will roll off a nearly horizontal paddle. It doesn't slide off and the force the TT ball applies to the paddle dure to gravity is quite low.
So can you prove the TT ball slips? You can prove that the ball slips with anti rubbers and long pips.


Zeio likes to post pdfs that are full of bogus information like the post above about women getting all the spin that even you find unlikely. This time he posted a link that is full of good information about pickle ball. From what I read the physics is correct However the coefficient of friction in TT is MUCH higher than in pickle ball because TT paddles have rubber coverings where pickle ball paddles do not. Zeio's article covers a lot about a "gripping range" TT balls don't slide off the paddle.

I would like to point out that the TT forums should consider it an embarrassment that there aren't articles like zeio's pickle ball pdf for TT.
Why is the physics for TT so far behind that for pickle ball, a relatively new sport? There is plenty of information about baseballs, golf, soccer balls etc.
TT is far behind. Why is that? Why are TT players so ignorant compared to players in other sports?

So you admit that there is a max spin limit, and you also admit that minimum friction is required to grip the ball esp at high swing speeds. This all means that the equipment matters, in fact quite a lot. I'm still waiting for an experiment where you achieve 80 rps with dead rubber (which doesn't have extra spin from spring effect) which is indeed pretty good as per your original statement, otherwise "your technique sucks" (your own words)

Assuming you can swing the paddle at 30 m/s ( base ball pitchers throw balls at 40 m/s ) then you divide that by the radius of the ball to get radians per second and then divide again by 2*PI to get revolutions per second. The number is about 239 revolutions per second and this is MUCH higher than what best players get but that is because I have assumed the ball is being perfectly brushed which isn't really possible. If one brushes the 30 degree point ( some call that 2 o'clock ) then the sin(30 deg)=0.5 so multiply the 239 by 0.5. The result is about 120 rev/sec which is realistic. That is lot of spin but most of us don't have the consistency be swinging at 30 m/s so if you swing at 20 m/s then you can achieve 80 rev/sec which is still pretty good..
I am assuming the rubber doesn't and extra spin from a spring effect. So if it is possible to get this much spin with just friction and no spring effect then why do so many people think they need spinnier rubbers? I think their technique sucks.

So is H3 national that spinny or is it the top players know how to spin the ball? I think the top players know how to spin the ball.

 

[blahness]

Btw slippage (using the same terminology from pickleball) is indeed a big issue when looping at high swing speeds (talk to anyone who plays in humid af conditions and you'll know), and lousier rubbers just doesn't have capacity to "grip" the ball to force it to match the swing speed in brokenball's equations, no matter how hard you swing, so you almost never get the 100% efficiency that brokenball predicts which is why he is overpredicting the spin by so much as the conditions for gear theory to apply (rubber in sync with ball with no slippage) are not easy to achieve and requires a precise contact which counterintuitively lowers the swing speed. So no, it's not just a matter of "swinging fast" and then the spin will be magically transferred to the ball.

And if you swing too fast too early then the ball simply leaves the paddle early and "slips" out thus the potential spin will be lost. This is also why when looping people talk about engaging the sponge - and going for max acceleration rather than max speed.

 

[Oliverpool]

Perhaps this latest current video in a interview from Xuxin who is widely known as the best looper/spinner can shed some light on the max spin rotation per second a player can spin. He clocks in at 170 rotation per second.

 

[brokenball]

Btw slippage (using the same terminology from pickleball) is indeed a big issue when looping at high swing speeds (talk to anyone who plays in humid af conditions and you'll know), and lousier rubbers just doesn't have capacity to "grip" the ball to force it to match the swing speed in brokenball's equations, no matter how hard you swing, so you almost never get the 100% efficiency that brokenball predicts which is why he is overpredicting the spin by so much as the conditions for gear theory to apply (rubber in sync with ball with no slippage) are not easy to achieve and requires a precise contact which counterintuitively lowers the swing speed. So no, it's not just a matter of "swinging fast" and then the spin will be magically transferred to the ball.

And if you swing too fast too early then the ball simply leaves the paddle early and "slips" out thus the potential spin will be lost. This is also why when looping people talk about engaging the sponge - and going for max acceleration rather than max speed.

Pickle ball paddles don't have rubbers. TT paddles do. TT rubbers grip almost instantly on contact. Why do you think I was asking about how a ball rolls off a nearly horizontal rubber. It is force that applies the torque to the ball that makes it rotate. Some how you couldn't figure that out.
So if the ball starts rolling at 1 m/s, how fast is the ball rotating? It is that simple and you haven't figured it out yet.

 

[vvk1]

Perhaps this latest current video in a interview from Xuxin who is widely known as the best looper/spinner can shed some light on the max spin rotation per second a player can spin. He clocks in at 170 rotation per second.

Xuperman's touch and ball feeling are out of this world!