I wanna play with the big boys!

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What I just wrote is proof of what karma happens to players who avoid practicing or playing vs LP or uncomfortable style players.
Its clear that TB has what it takes to beat pips players, he just doesn't want the hassles.
 
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On the topic of serve return:

People underestimate how bad their return is when they know what is on the ball. I sometimes make a terrible hash of sidespin when I know it is sidespin, especially to the short forehand. And I have pushed heavy backspin into the net even when I know it is heavy backspin. To be able to return serves well, you need either good ability to decelerate the spin/speed of the ball or lots of practice to develop technical returns that work. The latter approach is the one bad returners usually need. I know I still have significant short forehand return issues when I know what is on the ball. I just have to be patient with myself.

I remember when I was really really bad at looping long serves. Practice turned that into a relative strength. I also have a good technical flick I just haven't practiced it well enough to know what to do when the ball comes back. Having a good technical stroke at least means that you have an idea of what to do when you know what is on the ball. Again don't underestimate the fact that you might even return serves terribly when you know what is on the ball. Therefore learning what to do with heavy long sidespin serves on both forehand and backhand is the first key, even more than topspin vs backspin. When you know how to handle a spin based on your practice, then you can make reading serves a bigger issue. But I have seen many players complain about reading serves when even after seeing the serve repeatedly, they don't really return it well.
 
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Tensor BH... there is a Billionaire here in Sac area who I recently played using inverted/LP setup and played a disruptive bump, chop, and twiddle/loop game against in local league... crushed him like no tomorrow, and that was the first time ever I played such a setup remotely competitively... I am rated mid 1700s local league, this billionaire rated upper 1700s... look on his face throughout match with him knowing he aint gunna make it waz precious.

YOU could get sum learning, goof off and develop touch and do the SAME thing I did... and maybe even better standard that I did... you are young and brave, so who knows.
I cannot help but make the following comment:

If somebody will pay me one billion dollars and tell me that I will lose every single table tennis match going forward for the rest of my life against every single player on earth, I will take the one billion dollars :) :) Hehe....
 
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I am gunna so totally opposite and epically REKTt the mind of TTD members and agree with TensorBackhand and even go beyond... some 2000 midwest or east coast USA players can struggle too. (which is 1700-1800 cali corwd)

At Russian Church tonite, I had TWO bonafide Cali 1800 level attacking players (both classically Chinese attack oriented trained) ... I chopped, and so did another coach who is real old (so am I, but he is almost 10 yrs older and I am closer to 101 than 21...)... and these two 1800 Cali attackers seriously struggled to land 30-40% of their attacks vs our LP chops in a practice situation where we were trying to chop it to their strong zone...

What is crazy is that the second dude I coach (an adult named Ali who is officially Cali 1300-1400) has 65% plus landing percentage and runs circles around these guys in this drill... and this dude has barely done this drill not even a month.
Even Lin Gaoyuan lost to an amateur illegal long pips penholder Lei Leilei who doesn't even move much.... I heard Zhou Yu also nearly lost against another pipster

And at even higher level, watch how Ni Xia Lian does this to top 20 players.

Long pips also don't require that accurate of a read on the serve spin which is a huge factor especially if they have good serves on the inverted side.

The advantage that pips offers in this sport cannot be overstated.

Also long pips can be used for a lot more than chopblocks. The more scary strokes are the wide angle sideswipes in both directions (which always carry some weird ass spin) and aggressive bumps and punches.

I think LP feels really unfair to play against but it has its issues. Especially the inability to loop fast long balls on the pips side means that those are always a safe place to place the ball that you don't get vs modern two wing loopers.

I do OK vs pipsters personally but often against matches of equal level I feel like athletically I'm putting in way more compared to them which is the thing that feels most unfair. For eg in badminton you will never survive if you don't move well lol.
 
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I still struggle to read spin despite so many veterans / experts / helpful friends et al have been trying to help me. It is like I am a person living with disability when it comes to TT.

To give a perspective, I am very poor at receiving serves and I can lose 50% of the game to service error. During practice, if my friendly opponent were to tell me before hand what sort of spin he will serve, I can return the serve 100% of the time. But if it is not informed prior, the my % goes down to 50% or lower. Worse if those servers throw in some fancy hand movement that confuses me even more.

I have had "teachers" giving up in exasperation, saying how could you not see that that serve is underspin / topspin. It is clear as day! I just tell him I can't! I just can't!
To further add to this;

Despite my massive handicap at reading spin and taking serve poorly, I still, well, does not sucks 100%. There are some saving grace. One of the things I had use to compensate for my poor spin reading is what I've learned from Sensei Tom Lodziak's video on serve return. He said, if you are poor in returning serve, then do two things that is not the most ideal, but at least it still gives you some fighting chance. It improves your odds. What two things?

1. If in doubt, loop back everything. This is a very straight forward return, not the best, but better than being at the mercy of eating spin.
2. If in doubt, try to push / cut it to the middle of the table. It is not the most ideal, but it is better than eating spin.

It is based on these two pieces of advises from Sensei Tom, I manage to sucks less and still have a fighting chance.
 
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Serve return adjustments are where I have issues, not adjusting blade angle enough. For example a 1/2 long Back spin serve to my FH, the number of times I don’t open the blade enough when I push return!!!!
Don’t get me wrong, sometimes I misread completely. But the adjustments for high, medium and low spin can be difficult to make.
 
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Hi FF33,

How often do you play with the ‘big boys’ ??
There’s a lot of talk about playing with pips, and Der has shown that you need to play against pip players, fairly regularly.
There’s a lot of talk about serve, serve receive, 3rd ball attack.

I think that playing against better players regularly is also a ‘must do’. They will usually have better serves, better serve receives etc etc
It’s the same as playing against pip players, if you don’t, then when you do, you’ll struggle. Same with players that are Of a higher standard.
It can be a challenge, because win ratio is going to be low.
A couple of seasons ago, when play opened up after COVID, many players didn’t return to the sport. I was asked to play for our 1st team in the Prem division for the season. I wasn’t ready or good enough, I won 1 match all season. Not surprising because the step up in standard was too much, 3rd division to Prem!!!!

But my game improved, so, if you can find a training partner that is better than you, play against the better players in your club, get some coaching you will soon be playing at a higher level.
keep in mind that playing at a higher level, doesn’t mean you’ll win!!! Instead of losing 4-11 regularly you may lose 8-11 regularly!!! But you are going in the right direction.
 
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oh, what a pity, that you didn't play!

HK's level has been pretty amazing, so something is going right there for you guys!
Do you guys have U11 youth team? Taiwan started with U11 national trials, so there is technically a "trials" squad.

U15 upwards had more international participant action.
I was chatting to coaches about ITTF new U11/U13 categories, where, a contender in Asia, has so little participants.
China never takes part in cadets, Japan normally would, Korea not so much. Taiwan just started. USA flying half way across the world to me was surprising and then with U11 boys, you had 11 participants.....

And the whole scheduling was silly (girls played first, then mixed doubles, then boys).
so girls team arrive first (and then leave) then comes the boys team, with the 1 to 2 days overlap for XD in between.
So if you are a coach for both girls and boys, who is going to fly the girls home? Some stayed for all the days, which isn't productive at all as 1/3 being spectators.

Any ways, let me stop on HK YC, in case my post get reported as irrevelant content
hk has a youth team, where the youngest member is abt 9 or 10, and the oldest are 18 (once they are 19 they will move on to hk senior team). You might have heard of Chan Ho Wah Baldwin, who partnered up with Wong chun ting in mens doubles and played pretty well in some senior competitions... feeders, I think. Yea for the event seperations there, I agree. I couldnt make it to the stadium to cheer the girls on the first two days, but I still expected to see some mens opening rounds in the afternoon tho, what a pity. I noticed that all the girls just stayed around the coaches in the stands and basically just chatted and looked at their phones after the girls events, quite a pity aswell.
 
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FF33 I would say put yourself in at the deep end as much as you can with the setup you play with to start. See how it goes.... and fix the things you can in focussed training with players/coach/mentor.

If you can move ok for age/bodytype etc then that's good. If you are a bit more limited then a more controlled playing style might be a better choice or that serve and go for it! if you would enjoy playing that way..

It's not a 5 min fix.

LP is not magic you will beat players you didn't before and lose to players you didn't before. It's quite a dark (Side) Art. You can't just slap LP on and then play just like that. Players spend years working on LP strokes to improve them to a high level.

Try and stick to the basics... as very many have said. As a rule of thumb,

Improve your serve . 2-3 serves that give you an "in" for the point. or a setup. Nothing over fancy but make them solid so you know what/Where you are getting back if they come back. A decent backhand serve will keep you ready for the next ball if you movement is limited same a little with a tomahawk on the middle/forehand.

Service return - Keep it simple and make it SOLID. At the level a good solid push or placed angled Topspin/block can keep you holding the table. You don't want to give the table up. Get the basics down before you start with varying things loads.

Forehand and backhand - If you are hitting flatter then try and add spin or angle. If you are training add some tape to the table for hitting zones and then nail them down. It helps quite a bit to have a lane or target.

Pushing - A good solid dig is actually a good weapon. Then change placement and length. It can break things up and keep you in control.

Drill as much as you can both irregular and regular at a pace you can do balls on the table. There are many players that want to train at lightspeed but can't get the ball on the table more than 2-3 times.

Some video would help to see how you are doing or if that's not your thing. I breakdown of how you play.

It's exciting and fingers crossed when you start and improve .... Let us know how you get on!

Cheers


GZ
 
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Even Lin Gaoyuan lost to an amateur illegal long pips penholder Lei Leilei who doesn't even move much.... I heard Zhou Yu also nearly lost against another pipster

And at even higher level, watch how Ni Xia Lian does this to top 20 players.

Long pips also don't require that accurate of a read on the serve spin which is a huge factor especially if they have good serves on the inverted side.

The advantage that pips offers in this sport cannot be overstated.

Also long pips can be used for a lot more than chopblocks. The more scary strokes are the wide angle sideswipes in both directions (which always carry some weird ass spin) and aggressive bumps and punches.

I think LP feels really unfair to play against but it has its issues. Especially the inability to loop fast long balls on the pips side means that those are always a safe place to place the ball that you don't get vs modern two wing loopers.

I do OK vs pipsters personally but often against matches of equal level I feel like athletically I'm putting in way more compared to them which is the thing that feels most unfair. For eg in badminton you will never survive if you don't move well lol.
The advantages long pips offer require a lot of practice to make work, especially for someone who is in tune with inverted timing. Consistently hitting heavy spin balls is a difficult skill. Looping is definitely a more physically taxing skill in terms of pure athleticism, but hitting balls with early timing requires a timing and confidence that is not trivial. So yes, the advantages of pips can be significantly overstated. If they were as great as many players who struggle with them make out, many more players would be using them. So the advtanges are really to players with the ability and patience to master them. Even hardbat taxes the patience of many inverted players. Again hitting is a skill that people shouldn't trivialize by pointing just to the players that have successfully adopted the ability to do it with pips. Some players have developed styles that do it with inverted and which give loopers trouble as well.
 
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I am roughly your age and went from USATT 900 3 years ago to USATT 1400 right now. My experiences:
* I first played inverted f/h and b/h and learned a decent f/h top spin and a so/so b/h top spin. This is the combination most people play against most of the time so no surprise, and physical conditioning matters to some degree. So am mostly losing against really well coached little kids, teenagers, college students, and mature players under 40, or under 70 with experience.

* I then wanted to copy Mima Ito since she has a physical disadvantage and still wins against double inverted players (most of them). So I got the Nittaku Moristo SP short pips and the FastArc G1 (f/h) on a 7-ply blade (Yinhe 437). Worked pretty well against little kids and teenagers, and to some extent older players. I then got the Yinhe Uranus Pro short pips which are more forgiving and do have some spin (medium sponge, soft sponge is more finicky).
So pretty good, I got to maybe USATT 1300 but I lost against other pips players because with the short pips you can't put much spin in the game and my twiddling wasn't good enough and required 2x the training time - 2 sets of strokes.

* So I went back to double inverted for a year and made it to USATT 1400 but plateaued there.

* After the Nationals, 4 weeks ago, I concluded that I am better off with long pips because I was beaten by 70+ experienced players with short pips / long pips combination and they didn't exert nearly as much effort as I did. I started with a too fast blade and Curl P3V pips which are good (with 1mm sponge), and this went pretty well. Then I switched back to my slowest blade (Victas Swat) and this went even better. I tried other long pips (Neottec Tokkan), Sword Venom 1mm, Dawei 388D-1 0.8mm, and also medium pips Dawei 388-C1-1.3mm. I found that the pips all are roughly the same for me. I watched the "Lange Noppen" videos on YouTube (by Sebastian Sauer et al.) and some other ones. I played a tournament 4 weeks after starting long pips and went up 50 points or so but overall I played my better and closer against people who had destroyed me earlier, including long and short pips players.

I also want to say that I had a coach through the pandemic 2 hours/week and right now I can play 2 hours/day on a machine or with collegues who are mostly better than me.

Also I did play competitively in my teenage years where there was a lot of diversity in the table tennis styles (no YouTube) and so I do understand spin variations, antitop, long pips, etc.

Key points:
* Slow racket, not fast racket
* Keep long pips on the backhand initially, find out early whether to play OX (no sponge) or 1mm sponge.
* Watch Sauer YT videos and learn the long pips specific techniques (Druckschupf, Hackblock, Nopspin ;-).
* Need 2 hours/day on a machine to get used to the rubbers within 4 weeks or so.

Good luck !!
 
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The advantages long pips offer require a lot of practice to make work, especially for someone who is in tune with inverted timing. Consistently hitting heavy spin balls is a difficult skill. Looping is definitely a more physically taxing skill in terms of pure athleticism, but hitting balls with early timing requires a timing and confidence that is not trivial. So yes, the advantages of pips can be significantly overstated. If they were as great as many players who struggle with them make out, many more players would be using them. So the advtanges are really to players with the ability and patience to master them. Even hardbat taxes the patience of many inverted players. Again hitting is a skill that people shouldn't trivialize by pointing just to the players that have successfully adopted the ability to do it with pips. Some players have developed styles that do it with inverted and which give loopers trouble as well.
it's not that the pipsters didn't spend a lot of time perfecting all those nasty over the table strokes - but they probably didn't even sweat to get there compared to the inverted players.... then you have to question if TT is even a sport any more, or just a game of parlour tricks. With correct looping technique your legs and core are gonna feel sore af after every training session.

Also LPs are a huge unfair advantage in serve return just because of material. They don't need to watch trajectory like a hawk and neutralise incoming spin like inverted players. My practice partner defaults to using LP on the serve receive for a reason. If they have very good serves on the inverted side, you'll be eating their serves like no tomorrow while they just happily receive with LP and get 80% back without thinking much.

I can see the value of using LP especially for older ppl to stay competitive with the young ppl. Otherwise they won't be able to handle the physical demands (not just legs/core but also eyes!) of two wing looping.
 
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it's not that the pipsters didn't spend a lot of time perfecting all those nasty over the table strokes - but they probably didn't even sweat to get there compared to the inverted players.... then you have to question if TT is even a sport any more, or just a game of parlour tricks. With correct looping technique your legs and core are gonna feel sore af after every training session.

Also LPs are a huge unfair advantage in serve return just because of material. They don't need to watch trajectory like a hawk and neutralise incoming spin like inverted players. My practice partner defaults to using LP on the serve receive for a reason. If they have very good serves on the inverted side, you'll be eating their serves like no tomorrow while they just happily receive with LP and get 80% back without thinking much.

I can see the value of using LP especially for older ppl to stay competitive with the young ppl. Otherwise they won't be able to handle the physical demands (not just legs/core but also eyes!) of two wing looping.
The thing is that players who say this never want to switch to pips. The main thing that makes pips hard to play against is their ability to produce a dead ball in rallies and that most people who enjoy playing high spin table tennis don't want to read and hit the dead ball. But hitting the dead ball is an art, winning points against players who don't want to train against them not so much. The pips make serve return easier to the degree they are less spin reactive but even then they are very limited in what they can do, the issue is that most players don't want to take risks in a single match to learn what they do. If you can take the pips and play at the same level using them as without, then you can establish some credibility here. But I can play about 200 pts lower with pips of just about any kind because I have hitting strokes and I can say that inverted makes the game much easier than pips for anyone with basic athleticism, I have no doubt about this.
 
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it's not that the pipsters didn't spend a lot of time perfecting all those nasty over the table strokes - but they probably didn't even sweat to get there compared to the inverted players.... then you have to question if TT is even a sport any more, or just a game of parlour tricks. With correct looping technique your legs and core are gonna feel sore af after every training session.

Also LPs are a huge unfair advantage in serve return just because of material. They don't need to watch trajectory like a hawk and neutralise incoming spin like inverted players. My practice partner defaults to using LP on the serve receive for a reason. If they have very good serves on the inverted side, you'll be eating their serves like no tomorrow while they just happily receive with LP and get 80% back without thinking much.

I can see the value of using LP especially for older ppl to stay competitive with the young ppl. Otherwise they won't be able to handle the physical demands (not just legs/core but also eyes!) of two wing looping.
It's your choice how you play and what to play with. A blocker with double inverted rubbers will be less exhausting than a mid-table two wing looper, or an aggressive penholder using FH to cover the entire table. Does that mean blocker is a less decent style? If more exhausting = more respectable style/ more of a "sport", then you should become a classic defensive chopper, not a two wing looper.

When I play against a LP player, the first serve I try is a long backspin serve with as much spin as possible, with zero disguise. If they are not proper LP players, they just dump that into the net like players with inverted rubbers. Even if they quite good, they still can't attack that as someone else with modern tensors. LP certainly has its limitations, to the point that it is rarely used by professionals.
 
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The thing is that players who say this never want to switch to pips. The main thing that makes pips hard to play against is their ability to produce a dead ball in rallies and that most people who enjoy playing high spin table tennis don't want to read and hit the dead ball. But hitting the dead ball is an art, winning points against players who don't want to train against them not so much. The pips make serve return easier to the degree they are less spin reactive but even then they are very limited in what they can do, the issue is that most players don't want to take risks in a single match to learn what they do. If you can take the pips and play at the same level using them as without, then you can establish some credibility here. But I can play about 200 pts lower with pips of just about any kind because I have hitting strokes and I can say that inverted makes the game much easier than pips for anyone with basic athleticism, I have no doubt about this.
Yes, if I switched to pips I would lose my BH chiquita and fast BH loop, two of my main point winning weapons. I also reckon I produce more spin variations with my inverted receive than pips players. And I understand how inverted topspin makes it easier to land shots because of the Magnus effect. I definitely benefit from all of these.

Tbh for me the asymmetric effect in serve receive + the differences in athletic output is the main bugbears for me.

Also long pips don't just create dead balls - there's a lot of variations they can make. I had to learn to respect their spin variations and actually look at their strokes to identify exactly what kind of spin they're placing on.
 
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It's your choice how you play and what to play with. A blocker with double inverted rubbers will be less exhausting than a mid-table two wing looper, or an aggressive penholder using FH to cover the entire table. Does that mean blocker is a less decent style? If more exhausting = more respectable style/ more of a "sport", then you should become a classic defensive chopper, not a two wing looper.

When I play against a LP player, the first serve I try is a long backspin serve with as much spin as possible, with zero disguise. If they are not proper LP players, they just dump that into the net like players with inverted rubbers. Even if they quite good, they still can't attack that as someone else with modern tensors. LP certainly has its limitations, to the point that it is rarely used by professionals.
I would argue that chopping and looping are roughly equal. Usually in hard best of 7s it's the looper that gets tired first, not the chopper, because you have to loop explosively to overcome the backspin.

Also LP players usually love heavy backspin because your backspin = their topspin to use to land their attacking shot. If they can't attack it it just means they haven't ascended the LP skill ladder enough. Also they can just simply pivot and attack it with the inverted FH lol. Or sideswipe it to create a weird af spin ball. So many options for them.
 
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I would argue that chopping and looping are roughly equal. Usually in hard best of 7s it's the looper that gets tired first, not the chopper, because you have to loop explosively to overcome the backspin.

Also LP players usually love heavy backspin because your backspin = their topspin to use to land their attacking shot. If they can't attack it it just means they haven't ascended the LP skill ladder enough. Also they can just simply pivot and attack it with the inverted FH lol. Or sideswipe it to create a weird af spin ball. So many options for them.
With inverted rubber, you can push, loop and do sidespin wipe as well. Same number of options, just different effects.

If double inverted players have problems against LP players, it just means they haven't ascended the inverted skill ladder enough - pips usage drops significantly after advanced level.

Tbh for me the asymmetric effect in serve receive + the differences in athletic output is the main bugbears for me.
I am also very unhappy with some elderly players with Tenergies that can do kicking loops with little effort. Can we ban them please? Also the ALC blades while we are at it.
 
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With inverted rubber, you can push, loop and do sidespin wipe as well. Same number of options, just different effects.

If double inverted players have problems against LP players, it just means they haven't ascended the inverted skill ladder enough - pips usage drops significantly after advanced level.


I am also very unhappy with some elderly players with Tenergies that can do kicking loops with little effort. Can we ban them please? Also the ALC blades while we are at it.
In any game you should be balancing at all levels not just the highest levels. This is to ensure a fun experience at all levels. Sure inverted is dominant at the highest levels where everyone has excellent spin reading and adjustment capabilities and very good footwork. But at the lower amateur levels, for eg a well coached junior with proper strokes should never be losing to some guy just standing at the table and pushblocking with some LP. It is extremely discouraging for some of the younger players which is why there's a dearth of young ppl in this sport compared to say badminton or tennis. I would bet if you took a poll of this forum, the majority would be old folks lol.

A game is ultimately about fun and LPs just make the entire experience unpleasant. I arguably do better against LP than other inverted players (for eg when I'm 50-50 with this combination LP training partner, he often destroys some high level double inverted players that are able to destroy me in return). Still I would much rather lose against double inverted where I know I've been outplayed bad in certain areas, than win an ugly game against a LP player lol.
 
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But at the lower amateur levels, for eg a well coached junior with proper strokes should never be losing to some guy just standing at the table and pushblocking with some LP. It is extremely discouraging for some of the younger players which is why there's a dearth of young ppl in this sport compared to say badminton or tennis. I would bet if you took a poll of this forum, the majority would be old folks lol.

Maybe because this young players don't practice against LP? Coaches should teach them to play against LP
 
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Yes, if I switched to pips I would lose my BH chiquita and fast BH loop, two of my main point winning weapons. I also reckon I produce more spin variations with my inverted receive than pips players. And I understand how inverted topspin makes it easier to land shots because of the Magnus effect. I definitely benefit from all of these.

Tbh for me the asymmetric effect in serve receive + the differences in athletic output is the main bugbears for me.

Also long pips don't just create dead balls - there's a lot of variations they can make. I had to learn to respect their spin variations and actually look at their strokes to identify exactly what kind of spin they're placing on.
Long pips create deadvalls, otherwise most players would not use inverted on the other side. They can produce other spins largely in response to incoming spin but their primary effect is to add or subtract slightly from the incoming spin. They don't generate spin like inverted does, they produce dead balls.
 
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