Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[blahness]

yes, blahness i dont think up you understood the meaning of the space between the ball and the net.
As soon as you throw the ball upwards, you must remove the throwing arm from the space between the ball and the net.

the space between the ball and the net is where the hand is in the picture.
As i mentioned in my post i have seen really illegal serves in my tournament, and serves like these are still readable, but they are illegal.

No - it even says in the description - the flat plane formed by three points - the ball and two sides of the net and its infinite upwards extension (meaning anything above the flat plane). Note that it is "infinite upwards extension" not "downwards extension". Hence, if the free hand is below the ball, it is below this flat plane and hence not considered to be blocking the ball.

This is a mathematical definition and is already very precise.

 

[Mikey_TT]

Even if the contact is not visible. Some of those Hugo arm pulls may be late. Sometimes the head may block or the contact is behind the hip. Just keep looking for cues and fight through it. You will be grateful when in a high stakes match, the umpiring is had but you are used to playing through bad conditions. I have seen someone hide his serve but fail to vary it (he always served no spin which defeated the point of hiding it, which he was probably doing cluelessly). But if you don't focus through it, you defeat yourself without giving yourself a chance.

yeah honestly i read spin by the bounce since i cant focus on the contact point for some reason

 

[Mikey_TT]

No - it even says in the description - the flat plane formed by three points - the ball and two sides of the net and its infinite upwards extension (meaning anything above the flat plane). Note that it is "infinite upwards extension" not "downwards extension". Hence, if the free hand is below the ball, it is below this flat plane and hence not considered to be blocking the ball.

This is a mathematical definition and is already very precise.

the serving rule states-
2.06.04 From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden from the receiver by any part of the body or clothing of the server or his doubles partner; as soon as the ball has been projected, the server’s free arm shall be removed from the space between the server’s body and the net.

 

[NextLevel]

the serving rule states-
2.06.04 From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden from the receiver by any part of the body or clothing of the server or his doubles partner; as soon as the ball has been projected, the server’s free arm shall be removed from the space between the server’s body and the net.

"The space between the ball and the net is defined by the ball, the net and its indefinite upward extension."

The question is how to interpret this. I understand how some interpret it, but I don't think it means what they think it means (I could be wrong though). The guides for umpires usually have diagrams so that would close the discussion if someone could present it.

 

[blahness]

the serving rule states-
2.06.04 From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden from the receiver by any part of the body or clothing of the server or his doubles partner; as soon as the ball has been projected, the server’s free arm shall be removed from the space between the server’s body and the net.

Yes, and the space is defined as a 3d volume which is the infinite upwards extension of a flat 2d plane defined by 3 points (the ball, and the 2 sides of the net). It's as clear as day that this excludes anything below the flat plane (which the playing arm in this instance is). Maybe it's because I'm a practising engineer and we deal with 3d vectors all the time - for me this is defined extremely clear and not ambiguous at all.

Edit you must have an outdated version of the Handbook- please see latest version here: https://documents.ittf.sport/sites/default/files/public/2023-06/2023_ITTF_Statutes_clean_version.pdf

 

[IB66]

"The space between the ball and the net is defined by the ball, the net and its indefinite upward extension."

The question is how to interpret this. I understand how some interpret it, but I don't think it means what they think it means (I could be wrong though). The guides for umpires usually have diagrams so that would close the discussion if someone could present it.

the server’s free arm shall be removed from the space between the server’s body and the net.
This is to stop 'shielding', which was legal once upon a time!!
but taken 'literally', would mean that the servers chest would need to face the opponent and free arm positioned to the side of the players chest/trunk. Umpires interpretation diagrams required!!!!!!!
The main takeaway, is that the ball should be in plain sight to the receiver at all times, from when presented, thrown and struck.

 

[dingyibvs]

This service talk is boring, I'll just say that when I played with @Der_Echte the thought that his services were hidden or illegal in any way didn't even cross my mind.

Now let's talk about something more interesting...Table Tennis equipment! So I've been playing with the 968 for I think 3-4 months now, not including the period I was injured. I've gotten used to it, but it just doesn't feel right for my FH. With the old HL5, I just feel like I can't miss with my FH, but I just don't have the same confidence with the 968. The ball travels too fast and has less arc, and whether in practice or in games, and I've spent a lot of hours practicing, I just don't have the same consistency.

With my BH improvements, I want to give the old HL5 a try. It won't be nearly as crisp on the BH side, but perhaps with continued technique improvement I can generate enough "oomph" to overcome that. I'm gonna glue my old rubbers onto the HL5 and give it a try. I'm gonna travel to visit my parents for a couple weeks, so when I get back I'll see how that goes.

 

[Boogar]

Heya I see the goon squad has been very active. Hide all you secret equipment !

 

[Boogar]

On another note... my blade the Xiom Vega Pro (which i love) is getting near the end of its life. The most similar blade i ve found is the Apolonia ZLC. But i can't stand to spend so much money on a blade.
Any ideas what blades could be similar in feel?

 

[JeffM]

On another note... my blade the Xiom Vega Pro (which i love) is getting near the end of its life. The most similar blade i ve found is the Apolonia ZLC. But i can't stand to spend so much money on a blade.
Any ideas what blades could be similar in feel?

Hi Boogar! Great to see you back on this lovely thread that you started.

I was going to suggest the blade that I am using now but it is probably more expensive than the Apolonia ZLC ..

 

[JeffM]

Today I played the last session of TT while I am in the city.

I warmed up my forehands and backhands, then had some games.

I didn't think I played particularly well today.
I beat one of my friend today (I haven't lost to him yet in the past), but I lost to another friend (whom I haven't lost to him whilst I changed to shakehand). I re-watched the video, and I think that I wasn't moving well to be at the right place for the shots, and I wasn't attacking shots that I should be, and that I was paying too much respect to thinking his serves were loaded with backspin, but in fact they were mostly no spin and at most very light backspin. After that, he changed to using Jpen (from his Cpen), and I beat him in the first match, but then he wanted to keep playing, so I did, and then I lost to his Jpen.

The owner of the club uses anti-spin, and he thought he could bully me with it... But then he realized that I knew how to play anti-spin and he lost badly to me. I just have to serve long to his antispin side and then encourage a return that I can finish it. So this would probably be my highlight, to play someone from antispin.

Tomorrow I will drive back to the rural town, no more luxury of playing tt whenever I want to.

 

[IB66]

Heya I see the goon squad has been very active. Hide all you secret equipment !

Better watch out !! Carl's secret trap door is gonna swallow you up for too much equipment chat!!!!!

 

[Emin]

Who Else is playing with non symmetric blades?
One with different composition for forehand and backhand side.
İ dont wanna open another thread for it, just curios who Else has one of those.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

The key phrase is 'infinite extension upwards'. It's a technical detail, in practice no one would call it an obstruction except the extra-logical type but the arm is still in that space when the ball is past the peak. And it is a common approach to serving, many people are much worse in pushing the limits of it to the point that even when the arm never blocks, it is very distracting.

Interesting, I always interpreted the rule to mean that the arm had to be gotten out of the way before the ball fell to that height: that the ball had to be visible, and there had to be a clear view from the ball, wherever it is, and the vision of the returner (or the net): that, if the ball is 4 feet high and the ball is 15 feet high, or 8 feet high, then the arm cannot be in between the ball and the vision of the receiver or the net.

Also, to toss high, there is no way you can remove the arm ASAP because you have to use that arm to toss. I thought you just had to get the arm out of the way before the ball falls back down to the height of the ball. I thought it was to counteract how I was taught to serve in the 1990s when you purposely left the arm there, and the shoulder there, reaching, so that you could serve just under the shoulder, armpit and arm:

Like in the stills I am attaching:

In the 1990s people were taught to serve like that.

Isn't the rule to make it so the arm does not block the view of the ball? That is what I always understood the rule to be about.

But it is interesting that we are interpreting that term "infinite extension upwards" in opposite ways. You are interpreting it to mean, if you projected a plain upwards from the arm and that plane was between the ball and the net, that is against the rules. I guess, reading it, that might make sense from the wording.

The problem I would say with that reading is, it seems to me impossible, since the arm is actually throwing the ball, for it to never be in that plane since it starts there as the ball is on the palm and it remains there until you pull the arm back. Which would mean, by virtue of this, all serves where the ball is tossed, are against the rules and the rules also state that the ball must be tossed.

Okay. I am not sure any of this matters.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

This service talk is boring, I'll just say that when I played with @Der_Echte the thought that his services were hidden or illegal in any way didn't even cross my mind.

Yep.

And by the point of contact, I think his arm is not in that space between the ball and the net:

So, he does pull the arm back and out of the way, he just does it after the ball falls back down below head height. And I think it would be hard to toss the ball that high and pull the arm out of the way all that much sooner given the action of throwing the ball up 15-20 feet.

 

[Archosaurus]

How is it that every time I come back here, there is a "Der Echte serve illegal?" conversation going?

C'mon, we can just settle it as "illegal if you lose to it, legal if you win against it".

EDIT:

Also, sorry for not replying to the posts last year. I guess I was too busy.

Things are decent now, and I have no real money problems, so budget is not a big issue. I left my old blade at home due to import restrictions on wood (I coulda probably got it through but I wanted to save space too), so I am completely out of a setup right now. The setup was donated, so it went to a good cause and not in the trash.

I could go for the same setup again, but I was thinking to EJ a bit and go for a different one. The one I'm thinking of is H3Neo on forehand and Tibhar FX-S on backhand, but the blade is undecided. Some 5ply wood blade. Tibhar Allround Classic, maybe Yasaka Sweden Classic. Nothing wrong with the Stiga Allround Evolution, I just want to try different equipment to get more of an education in it.

Would this be a good idea or would it screw up my progress and it'd be better to go for 729FX on Allround Evolution again? Allround Evolution but with different rubber perhaps?

Back then I was also thinking of Mark V, but I think there might be more suitable rubbers nowadays. Durability is not the main priority as I am not so monetarily challenged right now.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Heya I see the goon squad has been very active. Hide all you secret equipment !

How is it that every time I come back here, there is a "Der Echte serve illegal?" conversation going?

C'mon, we can just settle it as "illegal if you lose to it, legal if you win against it".

I guess it is a reunion day. It is good to see both of you guys back in action even if, only for a few moments.

 

[Archosaurus]

I guess it is a reunion day. It is good to see both of you guys back in action even if, only for a few moments.

It was difficult for me to play last year, but now it's just down to finding people and a place. There is a decent looking place relatively near me, but I still need to go stake it out to see if anyone is interested in playing with a sucky beginner. If I can keep playing, I will probably keep posting again.

Taking a break was good, it gave a lot of perspective and I think I am more equipped to improve my play this time around.

Also, refer to above post for EJ nonsense.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

If money isn't tight, get whatever you want. If you don't like the blade or the rubbers, you can always change the part you don't love.

 

[Archosaurus]

If money isn't tight, get whatever you want. If you don't like the blade or the rubbers, you can always change the part you don't love.

Oh no, saying that in an EJ discussion is like giving out a license to kill.

I'll stick to my original idea then. Use that for a while, because invariably everything will feel off for the first half a year or whatever. Then once the rubbers start to wear out I'll think about it more. My only rule is no Tenergy and no 200 dollar blades for now.

Will any 80-90g 5ply allround blade be fine? I think I should stay away from 7ply and obviously carbon.