How to read the "swipe" serve?

[TensorBackhand]

https://fb.watch/rY08bnXLkA/

This type of serve is the one where I have the most trouble reading. I always freeze when I see my opponent just kinda "swipe" at the ball. I can see that it has side spin. But I'm never sure if it has topspin or underspin.

Even in this clip, it looks like topspin to me because he kinda raises his arm at the end. But Harimoto returns it with a slice, so maybe it is underspin.

So how do you read this kind of serve?

 

[blahness]

You gotta call it by its proper name which is a BH pendulum serve...it is nowhere as simple as just a "swipe"! The serve here is sidespin with a little top indeed because Harimoto uses a vertical angle and chops straight down (the correct technique to push/chop against sidetopspin balls).

 

[blahness]

Beginner level BH pendulum is easy af to read because they change the racket angle between sidetopspin and sideunderspin ie open angle for under and more closed for top.

The advanced BH pendulum uses a fast af racket action powered by the body rotation and weight transfer (see for eg Darko or Ovtcharov BH pendulum serve). And they use almost the same angle between sidetop and sideunder. With these you need to have eagle eyes to see whether the server brushed downwards on the serve or brushed upwards (with the elbow lift) or just sideways (which will create just neutral sidespin with not much top/under component). They will always brush downwards on the first half of the movement and lift the elbow on the second half. One is fake and one is real - you need to be able to read that.

If it were so easy to tell, Ma Long wouldn't have won against LGY with this serve.

 

[TensorBackhand]

You gotta call it by its proper name which is a BH pendulum serve...it is nowhere as simple as just a "swipe"! The serve here is sidespin with a little top indeed because Harimoto uses a vertical angle and chops straight down (the correct technique to push/chop against sidetopspin balls).

Why does he use a chop motion instead of a regular topspin stroke?

Also, I use the word "swipe", because its not just the bh swipe, but the fh pendulum swipe, the tomohawk swipe, any type of that sidespin "swipe" motion is hard for me.

 

[JJ Ng]

Why does he use a chop motion instead of a regular topspin stroke?

Also, I use the word "swipe", because its not just the bh swipe, but the fh pendulum swipe, the tomohawk swipe, any type of that sidespin "swipe" motion is hard for me.

The serve was wide and fast to Harimoto's backhand so Harimoto had his hands tied, so to speak.

I think Harimoto wanted to step in and do a flip return. So once he knew it was a side topspin, fast to his wide backhand, it was too late. He simply adjusted his paddle to chop it down so as to get the ball on the table and went on defense. It was not an optimal return but it kept him in the game.

 

[blahness]

Why does he use a chop motion instead of a regular topspin stroke?

Also, I use the word "swipe", because its not just the bh swipe, but the fh pendulum swipe, the tomohawk swipe, any type of that sidespin "swipe" motion is hard for me.

He already moved forward (anticipating a short serve) and was no longer in position to loop. At those levels, pushing back a long ball is almost always a mistake

 

[blahness]

Also, by the way you describe it, all sidetop/sideunder serves are "swipe" serves lol - that is almost every serve archetype except for the heavy underspin/no spin variant!

 

[vvk1]

You read this serve same way you read any other serve - the trajectory of the ball over the table for side-under/side-topspin variants is different, and you need to get your brain to associate these trajectories with the underlying spin and consequently appropriate return. If you cannot find someone who can serve at you till you get it, try learning these serve variations yourself and observe the ball trajectory first hand.

 

[Emin]

If the server does it well, its almost impossible to read the spin correctly just by reading or hearing about it, especially if you are not used to it.
If he was your practice partner, you would get used to it intuitively get the spin more correctly.

The reason the serve can be so effective is because its rare that someone can do it so well ( as well as some people can do their pendulum serve ), and when you meet someone like that in a match he can get a lot of easy points against you and by the time you figured it out you are already behind in points.

To be able to read the serve well you can either:

1. Practice AGAINST someone who does it often and well

or better and more effective overall

2. Practice the serve yourself, get an understanding for what movement creates what kind of spin, how you can deceive it well etc.

Id recommend to try it out yourself, maybe for a week, and youll definitely be better at reading it and knowing the strengths/weaknesses that the server will have.

It was similar for me with hook/tomahawk serves.
I barely could tell when it was top/underspin and would always lose many points against someone who could do it well.

Until I practiced it myself and developed my own hook serve skills.
I can now implement hook serves into my game to gain an advantage and I can read most tomahawk/hook serves of my opponent well enough to return them the way I want to.

So: Get good at it -> The better you can do it, the better you can read and deal with it

 

[Ultravisitor]

Im pretty good at that backhand serve, I use almost the same motion for side-backspin or side-top, BUT different contact timing.

My swing is a semicircle

For top-side I contact the ball late in the swing, so the ball is brushed upwards.

For back-side I contact the ball early and so the ball get brushed downwards

 

[pingpongpaddy]

https://fb.watch/rY08bnXLkA/

This type of serve is the one where I have the most trouble reading. I always freeze when I see my opponent just kinda "swipe" at the ball. I can see that it has side spin. But I'm never sure if it has topspin or underspin.

Even in this clip, it looks like topspin to me because he kinda raises his arm at the end. But Harimoto returns it with a slice, so maybe it is underspin.

So how do you read this kind of serve?

Hi Tensor, there is a phone app called "Table Tennis Edge" which allows you to practice reading the moment of contact with different serve motions. Basically its about deciding in a split second whether the serve is backspin or topspin., Concentrate on The Serve section and go through all the different actions.
It will help you when you try to read the real thing and make good decisions in an instant

 

[longrange]

You gotta call it by its proper name which is a BH pendulum serve...it is nowhere as simple as just a "swipe"! The serve here is sidespin with a little top indeed because Harimoto uses a vertical angle and chops straight down (the correct technique to push/chop against sidetopspin balls).

It's side topspin, but Harimoto does a half assed drive with the racket angle adjusted for the side spin, rather than a chop. His racket moves left to right and slightly up.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Also, by the way you describe it, all sidetop/sideunder serves are "swipe" serves lol - that is almost every serve archetype except for the heavy underspin/no spin variant!

Yeah, im terrible at receiving every serve apart from pure underspin

 

[TensorBackhand]

Hi Tensor, there is a phone app called "Table Tennis Edge" which allows you to practice reading the moment of contact with different serve motions. Basically its about deciding in a split second whether the serve is backspin or topspin., Concentrate on The Serve section and go through all the different actions.
It will help you when you try to read the real thing and make good decisions in an instant

Haha yeah. I did try it for a little bit. I was terrible at it also.

And also the graphic quality was pretty bad

 

[pingpongpaddy]

Haha yeah. I did try it for a little bit. I was terrible at it also.

And also the graphic quality was pretty bad

Never mind the graphic quality.
Yes I thought you might be bad at it.
practicing at what we are bad at the way we can improve. The way it is set up you you get to practice they moment of impact over and over

 

[TensorBackhand]

You read this serve same way you read any other serve - the trajectory of the ball over the table for side-under/side-topspin variants is different, and you need to get your brain to associate these trajectories with the underlying spin and consequently appropriate return. If you cannot find someone who can serve at you till you get it, try learning these serve variations yourself and observe the ball trajectory first hand.

It's not as easy for me as you describe.

First, good servers are very fast, so you only have less than a second to read it.

Second, even if I correctly recognize the underspin or topspin, I can't quite gauge the amount of underspin/topspin. So if I recognize it is underspin and go to push it, I often will pop up the ball as it has less underspin than I thought. Or if I correctly identify the topspin and go to flick it I might dump it into the net as it has less topspin than I thought.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Im pretty good at that backhand serve, I use almost the same motion for side-backspin or side-top, BUT different contact timing.

My swing is a semicircle

For top-side I contact the ball late in the swing, so the ball is brushed upwards.

For back-side I contact the ball early and so the ball get brushed downwards

Yes, this is what traps me every time. I can't figure it out.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Never mind the graphic quality.
Yes I thought you might be bad at it.
practicing at what we are bad at the way we can improve. The way it is set up you you get to practice they moment of impact over and over

I'll give it another try. A lot of times I become very hesitant because I don't know who to trust: my eyes, my instinct, my brain. I feel like I'm getting different signals.

 

[pingpongpaddy]

I'll give it another try. A lot of times I become very hesitant because I don't know who to trust: my eyes, my instinct, my brain. I feel like I'm getting different signals.

With service return it is all about decisions. To simplify just try to decide if a serve has backspin or not.
If it has backspin push or loop
if it has topspin, soft flip or drive
backspin with side =treat as backspin
topspin with side =treat as topspin.
when returning short serves over the table move the racket horizontally over the table same height all the way with vertical racket face just before impact
DECIDE
backspin open racket horizontal motion gentle but positive in the direction you want
or
topspin close racket horizontal motion gentle but positive in the direction you want

AVOID a motionless racket caused by hesitation. Then opponents spin will KICK off your racket. Gentle but positive makes the ball go where YOU want
If you return in this simple way you will get good feedback from your success and failure
bring your practice with TTedge into the equation so you focus on that split second of impact
good luck

 

[TensorBackhand]

With service return it is all about decisions. To simplify just try to decide if a serve has backspin or not.
If it has backspin push or loop
if it has topspin, soft flip or drive
backspin with side =treat as backspin
topspin with side =treat as topspin.
when returning short serves over the table move the racket horizontally over the table same height all the way with vertical racket face just before impact
DECIDE
backspin open racket horizontal motion gentle but positive in the direction you want
or
topspin close racket horizontal motion gentle but positive in the direction you want

AVOID a motionless racket caused by hesitation. Then opponents spin will KICK off your racket. Gentle but positive makes the ball go where YOU want
If you return in this simple way you will get good feedback from your success and failure
bring your practice with TTedge into the equation so you focus on that split second of impact
good luck

Yes, that's precisely what gets me in trouble. As soon as I miss 1 return, I become very hesitant and I default to the motionless racket, and that just causes a downward spiral.