Backhand topspin tutorials are useless

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Precisely.... This sport is technical af and very difficult. It's also what I enjoy about it, there are so many different shots to learn! And tweaking your own shots is part of the fun too.
Hah, that's one thing we differ on. I don't want to learn many shots, I just want to learn all the basic shots and do them as well as I can possibly do! I want to know every intricate detail about those relatively few shots and execute them to perfection in every single situation. After all, no matter what trick you pull it's gonna be some combination of back, top, side, and no spin, and I just wanna be able to attack them with as all with the most powerful topspin I can unleash. 以不变应万变 :devilish:
 
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Interesting and wrong until you mention impulse. Impulse is change in momentum, so it's not just racket speed that counts, it's weight transfer. Use a heavier blade with the same technique and racket speed, you'll get more power. Same blade, but wear a weighted wrist band, again more power. What if you wear a weight belt around your hips? Then it depends on technique. No properly timed hip turn (or weight transfer technique of your choice), no increase in power. No core tension connecting hips to shoulders to elbow, etc., extra momentum dissipates before it gets to the ball, so no increase in power. But with proper technique, weight transfer makes a big difference. That's why kids less than half your weight can hit bullets.
I don't think so. We trained with wristbands a lot between the '75s > '85s. The only purpose was to generate speed when we played without wristbands, not to create more power. In those days, strength was of secondary importance, that only came much later.
 
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People find it easier to learn in specific ways, Some people learn by watching, others by reading, some by listening, as a coach you have to find the way they like to be taught!!
I think it has to be mostly a combination of everything you list above. Combine that with innate talent and there is a future in you (overall). Otherwise, it will be hard, very hard work.
 
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I don't think so. We trained with wristbands a lot between the '75s > '85s. The only purpose was to generate speed when we played without wristbands, not to create more power. In those days, strength was of secondary importance, that only came much later.
Agreed. I don't agree with @brokenball too often but he's right here. Extra weight on the wrist will not allow you to generate more power. It may allow more energy transfer from the wrist/hand to the ball, but it'll decrease the energy transfer from the body/arm to the wrist/hand.

Using a simple example, imagine attaching 20 lbs to your wrist, then try to hit a ball. Some people will hardly be able to lift their hand, how fast do you think the ball can be hit?
 
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I don't think so. We trained with wristbands a lot between the '75s > '85s. The only purpose was to generate speed when we played without wristbands, not to create more power. In those days, strength was of secondary importance, that only came much later.
Momentum (mass x velocity) is the key. Both components contribute, not just the velocity/racket speed. You hit harder with a weighted wrist band if you maintain the same racket speed. You also hit harder if you increase your racket speed (with no wrist band). Both scenarios involve increasing the power you generate. You trained with a weighted wrist band to develop your fast twitch muscle fibers, similar to the way sprinters develop explosive speed out of the starting block by training with resistance bands.
 
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I have tried to help several members in my club with their backhands. The most problem is too early timing, and hitting the ball too far away from the body.
Also most people try to learn powerful loops without even learn basic driving, then they will not know how to use their bodies.
Using a lot of wrist for backhand is over-rated.
 
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I don't know why BH loop is considered difficult, I began using it in real matches much earlier than FH loops. In doubles it can be even more straightforward, you see a long ball, you rush to it, for some reason it's easier to have it in front of you than on your side and you shoot.
 
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I don't know why BH loop is considered difficult, I began using it in real matches much earlier than FH loops. In doubles it can be even more straightforward, you see a long ball, you rush to it, for some reason it's easier to have it in front of you than on your side and you shoot.
Timing and space are crucial for backhand loop. And most amateurs rush..
 
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The upper body also doesn't rotate that much. The FH loop hip rotation is completely different from the BH mechanism like what you said. Bh is achieved by bending the knees differently between legs.

A very simple experiment i used before to illustrate, If you keep both knees straight at first, and then bend your right knee only - this forces your right hip to go a bit forward and the left hip to go a bit backwards thus already achieving a small anticlockwise hip rotation. Vice versa is true too.

So from this simple experiment you can already see how a difference in knee bend angles between the 2 legs can produce hip rotation.

And this is the BH hip rotation mechanism that I'm referring to. Obviously the left leg can't be straight, but it is less bent compared to the right leg during the BH backswing. You can actually see the right knee come forward more during most pro players BH backswing.
Ah, this actually makes a lot of sense, I do this naturally executing chiquita where the FH leg goes under the table and extends throughout the stroke giving it power. I should try this for other backhands then. Thanks, blahness your stuff is always illuminating.
 
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Timing and space are crucial for backhand loop. And most amateurs rush..
Some people can do better BH looping before they develop FH, maybe because the ball is closer to their eyes and they see it better.
 
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The thing is that there are also many backhand topspin techniques. What I consider the classic one that most people who just want to spin should learn is the one that coach Hoang teaches here. If you can do this technique, then you can evolve to other variations later. But if your backhand looks like this, you are fine and have a good base to build on, don't let the envy of professionals make you miserable. A lot of the rest is enhanced backswing and elbow positioning and that just builds on itself over time as you get stronger and work on doing more with less. You can also make slightly different swings that move over shorter or larger distances but this is a good base to start with.


You don't have to learn only one technique for playing the ball. It is the secret of technical evolution - you can learn new strokes to add to your technical repertoire and select over time and there are many pros and a few cons of doing so. Your stroke doesn't have to look like Wang Chuqin on day one. But if your day one stroke is sound, it isnt that hard to add the things that Pitchford or Wang Chuqin add if you put in the time to train. That is my low level opinion of course.
Just seen this (regarding the 2nd clip where he fixes mistakes). Hoang wants the student to have his thumb on the blade handle and not the rubber. This is opposite to what i see other coaches teach. He says this makes the wrist less flexible which makes for better consistency. I was thinking its actually the opposite - Thumb on the rubber for consistency.. Anyway.. Is this advise good for people when they start and want to have a more consistent strokes and then later on change it and have the thumb up in the middle of the rubber (like all pros and high level amateurs).
 
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Just seen this (regarding the 2nd clip where he fixes mistakes). Hoang wants the student to have his thumb on the blade handle and not the rubber. This is opposite to what i see other coaches teach. He says this makes the wrist less flexible which makes for better consistency. I was thinking its actually the opposite - Thumb on the rubber for consistency.. Anyway.. Is this advise good for people when they start and want to have a more consistent strokes and then later on change it and have the thumb up in the middle of the rubber (like all pros and high level amateurs).
Grip is something that is infinitely flexible and there are so many tips that in the end, the most important thing is to try stuff and see whether it works for you if you can't pay a coach to take complete ownership of your training. I have played with both my thumb on and off the blade for backhand topspins and I play good backhands either way. Karaksevic and Persson play backhand with barely any fingers on the rubber. The Chinese train advanced and technical use of the fingers, if it works for you and you can find a coach that is putting you through the nuances, do it. But IMHO, it is more important to find ways of measuring your ball quality and getting feedback (including recording yourself), trying ideas, and seeing whether they have promise or not. Timo Boll raising his finger to the rubber to do short push is not something a coach really taught him, but since it made him feel better, thr coach told him to continue doing it. That's how most technique is built and developed in reality see whether it works, see that it has no real minuses, then just continue doing it.
 
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Thumb on handle is definitely discouraged in mainland China, even on FH. I took a lesson with former CNT player 劉三/劉穎倪/Liu San/Liu Ying Ni in my junior days and after missing tons of BH loop, the first thing he did was look at my grip and fix exactly that (shallow with thumb on handle and index finger changing position when receiving). Boom. Kept landing shots after shots (spinny AF).
 
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Over-analyzing...
Over-thinking...
Proliferation of thoughts think this think that...
Just whack it. Shoot first, ask question later.
"Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines" Tool -Lateralus
And no it has absolutely 0 to do with BH,just @Gozo Aruna reminded me of that song :)
 
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Momentum (mass x velocity) is the key. Both components contribute, not just the velocity/racket speed. You hit harder with a weighted wrist band if you maintain the same racket speed. You also hit harder if you increase your racket speed (with no wrist band). Both scenarios involve increasing the power you generate. You trained with a weighted wrist band to develop your fast twitch muscle fibers, similar to the way sprinters develop explosive speed out of the starting block by training with resistance bands.
I think a weighted wristband might help for different reasons. Something weighted enough that makes it uncomfortable to quickly flick your wrist and/or only your arm muscles will give you an incentive to use your body to generate force.

If your body senses that it'll fatigue one link in the kinetic chain too quickly, other muscles and systems will compensate. So you'll end up using more of your hips and body rotation to start the movement to take some workload off the arm. The arm will stay loose until the point of contact which provides the whip action.

As a guy who is still learning to BH loop, I will notice that I still focus on tightening the arm and wrist first to initiate the stroke. This is of course completely wrong and results in balls going weakly into the net as the tension and power dissipates before the point of contact (especially when I time too early and reach for the ball).

To my monkey brain it makes sense that I need to focus and tense up my arm to prepare to hit the ball. If I isolate my focus to just my arm, there will be less to worry about and less to go wrong, right? (obviously wrong). I played VR TT for a year or so before jumping into the real thing and I could hit fast balls with just arm focused shots, especially since I set the paddle settings to max spin and speed (as an aside, I think this is also one reason why adult players should NOT start on tensor rubbers that can get the ball safely over the net with quality using only arm movements).

So now, even 1.5 years into training, my body still defaults into using arm-initiated BHs. When I'm practicing with my coach, I'm somehow able to override this and have better full body form. But then I watch myself playing games and it's obvious bad form is my default and coached training is just a rare break from it.

So for people like me, maybe it would be a good idea to convince my body that arm-only BH loops are bad through discomfort and/or fatigue. Right now I'm just relying on the psychological 'pain' of missing shots but that's not really a great motivator as gambling science shows us that inconsistent rewards are more pleasurable to the brain (e.g. a slot machine that pays out consistently is less addicting than one that pays out very rarely).
 
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I think a weighted wristband might help for different reasons. Something weighted enough that makes it uncomfortable to quickly flick your wrist and/or only your arm muscles will give you an incentive to use your body to generate force.

If your body senses that it'll fatigue one link in the kinetic chain too quickly, other muscles and systems will compensate. So you'll end up using more of your hips and body rotation to start the movement to take some workload off the arm. The arm will stay loose until the point of contact which provides the whip action.

As a guy who is still learning to BH loop, I will notice that I still focus on tightening the arm and wrist first to initiate the stroke. This is of course c
ompletely wrong and results in balls going weakly into the net as the tension and power dissipates before the point of contact (especially when I time too early and reach for the ball).

To my monkey brain it makes sense that I need to focus and tense up my arm to prepare to hit the ball. If I isolate my focus to just my arm, there will be less to worry about and less to go wrong, right? (obviously wrong). I played VR TT for a year or so before jumping into the real thing and I could hit fast balls with just arm focused shots, especially since I set the paddle settings to max spin and speed (as an aside, I think this is also one reason why adult players should NOT start on tensor rubbers that can get the ball safely over the net with quality using only arm movements).

So now, even 1.5 years into training, my body still defaults into using arm-initiated BHs. When I'm practicing with my coach, I'm somehow able to override this and have better full body form. But then I watch myself playing games and it's obvious bad form is my default and coached training is just a rare break from it.

So for people like me, maybe it would be a good idea to convince my body that arm-only BH loops are bad through discomfort and/or fatigue. Right now I'm just relying on the psychological 'pain' of missing shots but that's not really a great motivator as gambling science shows us that inconsistent rewards are more pleasurable to the brain (e.g. a slot machine that pays out consistently is less addicting than one that pays out very rarely).
I agree there are a few different ways a weighted wristband might help, though it also might hurt by encouraging some bad habits (e.g., too much shoulder extension to compensate for the extra weight) and stressing your rotator cuff.

When learning bh loop it does pay to focus on lifting with your legs. Like most bh technique, it's a question of timing. A lot of players lower their body, then use their arm to hit the ball, then rise back up only after the ball is gone. Some even make contact while they're still sinking down.

Ti Long just published a video on this subject.

 
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I think a weighted wristband might help for different reasons. Something weighted enough that makes it uncomfortable to quickly flick your wrist and/or only your arm muscles will give you an incentive to use your body to generate force.

If your body senses that it'll fatigue one link in the kinetic chain too quickly, other muscles and systems will compensate. So you'll end up using more of your hips and body rotation to start the movement to take some workload off the arm. The arm will stay loose until the point of contact which provides the whip action.

As a guy who is still learning to BH loop, I will notice that I still focus on tightening the arm and wrist first to initiate the stroke. This is of course completely wrong and results in balls going weakly into the net as the tension and power dissipates before the point of contact (especially when I time too early and reach for the ball).

To my monkey brain it makes sense that I need to focus and tense up my arm to prepare to hit the ball. If I isolate my focus to just my arm, there will be less to worry about and less to go wrong, right? (obviously wrong). I played VR TT for a year or so before jumping into the real thing and I could hit fast balls with just arm focused shots, especially since I set the paddle settings to max spin and speed (as an aside, I think this is also one reason why adult players should NOT start on tensor rubbers that can get the ball safely over the net with quality using only arm movements).

So now, even 1.5 years into training, my body still defaults into using arm-initiated BHs. When I'm practicing with my coach, I'm somehow able to override this and have better full body form. But then I watch myself playing games and it's obvious bad form is my default and coached training is just a rare break from it.

So for people like me, maybe it would be a good idea to convince my body that arm-only BH loops are bad through discomfort and/or fatigue. Right now I'm just relying on the psychological 'pain' of missing shots but that's not really a great motivator as gambling science shows us that inconsistent rewards are more pleasurable to the brain (e.g. a slot machine that pays out consistently is less addicting than one that pays out very rarely).
I played arm only backhand loops for years and I turned out okay. We sometimes over intellectualize the learning process because we don't know how many roads can lead to Rome including thoae that take a seemingly wrong path. In the end, the main reason why you don't hit proper backhands in matched (assuming this is true in the absence of video tape review) boils down to two truisms - your body is using the stroke it trusts under pressure and you haven't trained the proper backhand under pressure enough for your body to feel it is worth initiating. Without pushing thr limits of your technique (which many people don't do because it hurts the practice session unless you are doing it as part of rapid multiball or with a coach who understands what the goal is), it is hard to develop technique that you trust under pressure. Very often the player that hits the ball better under pressure is simply the player who has practiced it more. And this is usually true regardless of technique, though when practice is balanced out, technique begins to make a difference (of course, I am missing such important things as reading the ball etc. Which invite a pressure of their own...)
 
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