Backhand topspin tutorials are useless

[NextLevel]

So here is the KJH video. Just like the Coach Hoang video, he emphasises the requirement of supination. But while it isnt obviously looking at his technique, he is advocating making solid contact with a more open blade face and supinating it through the swing . I teach doing this with the wrist/lower arm because while it may not always get as much spin as having a closed racket angle early, the risk of whiffing the ball is reduced tremendously and it is easier to hit multiple backhands in a row. This is critical with a stroke with a narrow contact window like the backhand topspin. Again just speaking for myself and people I have coached. Everyone does this a bit differently. I actually have not gotten the video auto translated yet but when I do, I will try to discuss it in more depth. But I can pretty much tell from what he is describing in his tutorial what his advice is.

Supination also helps with aggressive strokes close to the table. But supination is hard to see in a tutorial unless it is explicitly brought to your attention. Hence the danger of listening to people who talk about not changing the racket angle because they have no idea of what the mental model is in players who actually hit good strokes. I came to this stroke entirely independently and by accident while hitting lots of backhands in practice, I have a practice partner in Philly who called my backhand the weirdest thing he had seen because I clearly looped the ball but never seemed to close my racket. If I make video I can explain the seeming contradiction but the truth is that if you backswing far enough, your racket will appear closed at some point, whether it is actually closed in your mental model is a separate story.

Hopefully this video will be the final piece that helps Musaab see what the pros are kind of doing just with much more aggressive backswings. There is probably one last video but it is a backhand flick video from Fan Zhendong.

 

[blahness]

Exactly, which is why I feel the term rotation itself is confusing. When people think rotation they naturally try to rotate their waist, as that's the joint that rotates the hip. While at each vertebrae you can only rotate a small amount, generally people can rotate about 90 degrees or so left and right when all the vertebra rotate, and they're pretty used to doing that, so that's what they try.

I think describing it as kicking the left hip out helps people realize that it's a different motion from waist rotation.

I prefer using the right knee to explain the hip rotation, because the hip is a ball and socket joint which has too much freedom and it's easy for ppl to do it wrong. With knees there's only bending and straightening and thus very easy to replicate.

 

[blahness]

And the idea of differential straightening of the knee works extremely well in changing directions too because its something your opponent won't be able to see or detect. I pretty much straighten the right knee more when I want to go diagonal and straighten the left knee more when I want to go down the line. Got this idea from the Harimoto BH tutorials.

 

[dingyibvs]

I prefer using the right knee to explain the hip rotation, because the hip is a ball and socket joint which has too much freedom and it's easy for ppl to do it wrong. With knees there's only bending and straightening and thus very easy to replicate.

I like that line of thought. If I were teaching others I'd definitely consider that as an alternative to my method. As @NextLevel mentioned, different people learn differently, case in point the two of us, so some may grasp that better.

 

[NextLevel]

This is a typical Nextlevel post. It is a personal attack instead of saying what it wrong with what I said. That is because he can't find anything wrong with what I said.

Again, there is so much said about weight transfer. Weight transfer is only meaningful if it helps increasing the speed of the paddle and the stroke really requires it. I weigh 270 lbs and that is 20 lbs down from last summer. How much weight do I need to transfer to hit a 2.7 gram TT ball? I want to know! Maybe Nextlevel can enlighten us. It is the speed of the paddle and the impulse on the ball that matters. The stroke before and after contact does not affect the trajectory of the ball. That is why there are so many ways to achieve the same thing.

Long ago I called Nextlevel a wannabee. After so many years I think it is apparent he is a never will be.
USDC says I am rude. The forum doesn't deserve better because USDC allows these personal attacks.

I have posted my video of me play c-pen over a half dozen times. I made it long ago in support of the c-pen players. I am not normally a c-pen player but I think c-pen is as natural as shakehands. Nextlevel is too lazy to go fish.
BTW, I show some very good FH loops and aggressive RPB play. I think RPB is natural. Also, my RPB rubber is a cheap $5 1.8mm sponge I bought from zeropong and I glued a $10 LKT Pro top sheet to it and glued both of them to my $50 Yasaka Extra Offensive blade. I really want to know what impulse a $200 blade with dignics on it can generate that my cheap c-pen cannot. I really want to know. The forum wants to know.

The reason so many hate me is that I ask questions they can't answer and make them look stupid before the forum. I don't need to call them stupid or idiots. They step in sh!t themselves.

So what is your answer never-will-be?

I posted two videos of high level player coaches taking about the need to supinate and press down through the stroke. You come with your low level advice to keep the racket angle constant. This is the entire problem in a nutshell. Someone who has no clue how to play a high level backhand feels compelled to comment that he is an expert on how to teach it.

 

[AngelOfDrive]

Even with little understanding of the Korean language (video in #102), I can hear and see that the person is explaining that you have to supinate on the backhand. It is shown and explained very clearly.

 

[Dr Evil]

Most of my use of hips when playing backhand is in the backward and forward direction but it is more bowing and straightening. You can try that and decided whether it is weight transfer from left to right. I used to twist more.but I found it too slow for fast backhand rallying and harder to do when the ball came on your right hip/middle. And I found specific whipping of the wrist and a precise ball contact that reduced the risk of whiffing the ball to be the most important thing for fast rallying with consistency. I found a video of KJH teaching the technique recently and will post it if I get in front of a PC. But people who have seen the Liam Pitchford masterclass will be already familiar with it. There is some rotation when you unsheath a sword, but when you do a breaststroke, you can minimize rotation using both hands while getting the same back to front effect and this is currently how I practice it and how I teach it to more experienced players.

I think the bowing and straightening technique is the most stable and efficient way to get weight into your backhand. Your hips come forward a little when you straighten up and that does it. I don't think there's necessarily any left to right component. It sacrifices some leverage compared to hip rotation, but I don't think that's significant except at distance and maybe when opening against heavy backspin.

 

[Loop Lob Smash]

Is this going to turn into another spraying all over the place scenario?

 

[NextLevel]

Yes, if you are rotating your wrist and changing the paddle angle then you need to have PERFECT timing for when the ball impacts the paddle. If the ball hits the paddle a millisecond before or millisecond after the paddle angle will be different so the ball will go to different places depending on whether the impact is early or late and how fast you are rotating the paddle.

So how fast do you rotate the paddle? What is your advice? Is this just something you say without thinking about it? What is the purpose for changing the attitude of the paddle during contact?
We have had this conversation before. You don't answer questions.

You are a hit and run post that never sticks around for the follow up questions to your stupid statements.

How much weight do I need to transfer to hit a 2.7 gm TT ball? I know I do it but I don't think about it. It isn't a big deal. You should write a book about weight transfer since you think you are the expert.

If you keep the attitude of the paddle constant during the possible impact times the ball will go to the same place if the ball impacts a little early or a little late.

Nextlevel's advice will have you spraying TT balls all over the place because the orientation of the paddle is always changing.

The videos are there for you to see exactly what the experts recommend and you can discuss them to your satisfaction. Explain what is happening in the videos and why the coaches are wrong, and then, just then, I might dignify you with a response. The link below is to the time where the supinating stroke is discussed and a version performed. Otherwise, I really don't have the time to dignify your ignorance.

 

[dingyibvs]

Yes, if you are rotating your wrist and changing the paddle angle then you need to have PERFECT timing for when the ball impacts the paddle. If the ball hits the paddle a millisecond before or millisecond after the paddle angle will be different so the ball will go to different places depending on whether the impact is early or late and how fast you are rotating the paddle.

So how fast do you rotate the paddle? What is your advice? Is this just something you say without thinking about it? What is the purpose for changing the attitude of the paddle during contact?
We have had this conversation before. You don't answer questions.

You are a hit and run post that never sticks around for the follow up questions to your stupid statements.

How much weight do I need to transfer to hit a 2.7 gm TT ball? I know I do it but I don't think about it. It isn't a big deal. You should write a book about weight transfer since you think you are the expert.

If you keep the attitude of the paddle constant during the possible impact times the ball will go to the same place if the ball impacts a little early or a little late.

Nextlevel's advice will have you spraying TT balls all over the place because the orientation of the paddle is always changing.

I think there's some misunderstanding on why certain moves are done. Specifically, the supination and weight transfer.

For supination, it helps increase racket speed. The point of eventual contact with the ball will be traveling at a faster speed toward the intended direction if you add supination to your stroke. It also allows your wrist racket to travel in an arc, similar to the arc of the ball, which reduces the relative speed between the racket and the ball in directions (mostly vertically) that are orthogonal to the direction of intention, thus reducing error and increase consistency.

For weight transfer, it's not to increase the transfer of energy from you to the ball, it's to increase the transfer of energy from your lower body to your upper body.

 

[Dr Evil]

Weight transfer is only meaningful if it helps increasing the speed of the paddle... It is the speed of the paddle and the impulse on the ball that matters.

Interesting and wrong until you mention impulse. Impulse is change in momentum, so it's not just racket speed that counts, it's weight transfer. Use a heavier blade with the same technique and racket speed, you'll get more power. Same blade, but wear a weighted wrist band, again more power. What if you wear a weight belt around your hips? Then it depends on technique. No properly timed hip turn (or weight transfer technique of your choice), no increase in power. No core tension connecting hips to shoulders to elbow, etc., extra momentum dissipates before it gets to the ball, so no increase in power. But with proper technique, weight transfer makes a big difference. That's why kids less than half your weight can hit bullets.

 

[Der_Echte]

This part here from KJH vid that NL inked in previous post (and an excellent instruction vid for approaches to BH topspin) at 10:36 is discussing how to be at the table and hit down the line short side of table to opponent's open FH line... You could use your wrist to adjust, but that is difficult under power and you miss a lot. Turn on C and use setting for auto translate Eng or whatever. translation is not terrible on this vid.

KJH is showing how to square the chest and shoulders to the target. He shows you do this by pivoting on your ankles and knees to square the chest/shoulders to down the line target... in this way you use your normal stroke with full power and consistency.

This is similar and different to what blahness advocates to go down the line for BH topspin, but it isn't rotating the waist for use in power... it is merely rotating the entire upper body to line it with a target to use the normal stroke. The waist is not exploded forward to make big power here like in an away from table BH.

KHJ articulates this excellently in this vid and also on many of his vids where he breaks down BH technique. Like him or love him KJH can show what is happening and why... this is invaluable to an adult learner.

 

[blahness]

This part here from KJH vid that NL inked in previous post (and an excellent instruction vid for approaches to BH topspin) at 10:36 is discussing how to be at the table and hit down the line short side of table to opponent's open FH line... You could use your wrist to adjust, but that is difficult under power and you miss a lot. Turn on C and use setting for auto translate Eng or whatever. translation is not terrible on this vid.

KJH is showing how to square the chest and shoulders to the target. He shows you do this by pivoting on your ankles and knees to square the chest/shoulders to down the line target... in this way you use your normal stroke with full power and consistency.

This is similar and different to what blahness advocates to go down the line for BH topspin, but it isn't rotating the waist for use in power... it is merely rotating the entire upper body to line it with a target to use the normal stroke. The waist is not exploded forward to make big power here like in an away from table BH.

KHJ articulates this excellently in this vid and also on many of his vids where he breaks down BH technique. Like him or love him KJH can show what is happening and why... this is invaluable to an adult learner.

Harimoto's method is in the video below and is basically driven by left leg straightening (which actually rotates the entire body to face as much to the left as you want). Imo this is the most advanced method to go down the line because you can apply a lot of power while still going down the line, plus it is basically non telegraphed. I thought this was really genius and promptly adopted/stole it for my own use.

Note that this doesn't work for balls exiting the left side of the table because theres too high a chance of missing the ball, there's another way to go down the line for these balls. I basically go around the left side of the ball to catch the ball solidly and then place it down the line instead of hitting the ball on the right side like Harimoto does below.

This video is also very interesting because Miwa actually uses the traditional method to go down the line. You can see how Tomo's method is way more sudden and less telegraphed, the angle is a lot greater and he actually even gets some fade sidespin on it to make the angle even wider. If you get the opportunity to do it correctly, 80-90% of the time it is a direct point for you. Of course the problem is that your opponents will wise up and stop giving you easy topspin balls to your BH lol.

 

[mattlamperouge]

Basically, a lot of what pro players tell you are useless because they already have close to perfect biomechanics from the body as a base. For eg Harimoto saying that all his BH is coming from his wrist which is clearly untrue as even in slowmo you can see his body working damn hard.

Imo, most important thing I learnt for my BH is below:

1) Thumb + index finger pressure points to create a lever arm to rotate the ball by Ti Long. With it you can generate stupid amounts of spin just with fingers and you can already land quite a decent shot without doing anything. You train this extensively against topspin.

2) BH counter / lift against underspin, also by Ti Long. This spin understanding allows you to apply 1) easily to underspin balls and you are no longer afraid of them.

After 1 and 2 you will have a basic BH able to open up consistently and rally against all sorts of balls but you won't have any loopkilling power.

So how to acquire loopkilling power? You need to incorporate the other body mechanics. Imo Ti Long is also good for this but there are some more advanced tutorials (unfortunately mostly in Chinese, a lot of English tutorials do not teach advanced understanding of the BH).

I learnt:

3) how to do explosive hip rotation and weight transfer and adjust for different ball placements/heights using the legs from Fang Yinchi from Fang Bo's channel. This is also a game changer because it allows immense power generation from a small internal rotation of the body. I tried other methods before this and none of them have this level of explosiveness.

4) methods to brush to deal with various types of spin, in particular heavy sidespin, sideunder, sidetop, topspin - also from Fang Yinchi but also Yin Hang. This is critical to defending and receiving fast long serves to your BH. This is also very important to have a stable chiquita - you have to apply different philosophies of contact against different spins. You can't just use a single method to deal with all spins.

5) how to use the lat muscles and free arm effectively from Sun Hao Hong - this is very important for chiquita due to the table being in the way. Most prominent from Lin Yun Ju - you can see how his back muscles work overtime to pull his elbow clockwise.

6) how to go down the line by Harimoto (Japanese tutorial) - pretty much by using the right leg to find the ball and then straightening the left leg to do a sudden body rotation towards the FH corner.

7) How to defend against incoming loops properly - also on Fang Bo's channel with a few guests

There's a lot of other stuff I learnt (sidespin countering and punching) but these are the main items I learnt to build my BH now (which is one of my biggest strengths). I am working to elevate my FH to the same level as my BH at the moment.

Also I highly disagree that FH is less technical than BH. Because amateurs can generate FH power much more naturally in general in the beginning, but it doesn't mean that it is a good FH (controlled, spinny, fast, consistent against all types of balls). The road to a good FH imo is filled with even more issues and traps than BH, because you can hit quite hard even with bad FH technique and you think you're doing well but in reality you're just building up bad habits....

Thats interesting, can you share which specific videos are you Talking about on each point? Thank you

 

[exotick]

Regarding the use of thumb and index finger (supination), do you actively press with the tip of the finger (the thumb) or keep it lose all the time? Also at what point are we supposed to supinate? I am thinking during backswing and before releasing the arm forward? Otherwise timing could be harder?

Amazed there isn't a thread for Lin Shidong who arguably has the best bh on his day. So powerful. His technique seems a bit like Ma Long's with the arm's going more forward than others i think? Anyone could do a breakdown of his technique? So much power.. using 09c too, which isn't easy, ha.

Edit: Does Pitchford advocate supination and if he does, does he show the way he does it in the masterclass?

 

[NextLevel]

Here is a video where you can see what Liam is doing as his base multiball technique in slow motion. It isn't that different from what KJH is teaching the difference in wrist usage (which is the primary tool for the supination when the stroke is more advanced):

This is not the only good swing in the world, there are other ways of doing similar things. One of the big mistakes with being obsessed with high level swings is that looking at finished products does not show you how the technique evolved, and how the technique evolved is probably more important for learning it.

 

[IB66]

Regarding the use of thumb and index finger (supination), do you actively press with the tip of the finger (the thumb) or keep it lose all the time? Also at what point are we supposed to supinate? I am thinking during backswing and before releasing the arm forward? Otherwise timing could be harder?

Amazed there isn't a thread for Lin Shidong who arguably has the best bh on his day. So powerful. His technique seems a bit like Ma Long's with the arm's going more forward than others i think? Anyone could do a breakdown of his technique? So much power.. using 09c too, which isn't easy, ha.

Edit: Does Pitchford advocate supination and if he does, does he show the way he does it in the masterclass?

I think 'supination' is the movement of hand, wrist and forearm, turning over so that at the end of the stroke or movement the palm faces upwards.

Using thumb and index finger is something else.

 

[Musaab]

Regarding the use of thumb and index finger (supination), do you actively press with the tip of the finger (the thumb) or keep it lose all the time? Also at what point are we supposed to supinate? I am thinking during backswing and before releasing the arm forward? Otherwise timing could be harder?

Amazed there isn't a thread for Lin Shidong who arguably has the best bh on his day. So powerful. His technique seems a bit like Ma Long's with the arm's going more forward than others i think? Anyone could do a breakdown of his technique? So much power.. using 09c too, which isn't easy, ha.

Edit: Does Pitchford advocate supination and if he does, does he show the way he does it in the masterclass?

Where did you get this info from ? about pressing with the thumb and index. I'm asking because this is one of the ways I found my backhand to improve alot, it is just a bit tiring because I do it once the point start after my serve or right before my opponent's.

 

[NextLevel]

Thumb and index finger usage and theory means different things to different people. Some coaches don't teach it, while some teach it to activate/enhance pronation (index finger) or supination( thumb) during strokes. If such things help you, keep doing them. In the end, anything you try for the first time will always exhaust you. It takes time for mental and physical effort to become habitual even on trivial things. It's all about whether it is worth it to you or not and doesn't cause injury. But of all the things to focus on to build a backhand topspin, I wouldn't say that you can't have a good backhand because you didn't use your thumb or forefinger in a specific way.

 

[blahness]

Thats interesting, can you share which specific videos are you Talking about on each point? Thank you

3,4,5,7 is on Chinese tiktok, don't know the youtube links for them.