Backhand topspin tutorials are useless

[blahness]

Where did you get this info from ? about pressing with the thumb and index. I'm asking because this is one of the ways I found my backhand to improve alot, it is just a bit tiring because I do it once the point start after my serve or right before my opponent's.

You can just keep it loose until you need to use it for spinning. I can't imagine keeping it pressed all the time, it would be tiring af!

 

[Dr Evil]

Why am I arguing with these idiots? Newton did not include weight transfer in his 3 laws of motion.
Impulse is the integral of force over time. Yes, it results in a change in momentum
How much weight do I need to transfer? I want to know. You can't answer because there is no formula for that.


NO! you don't even know what power is. The ball will have slightly more energy. It is not proportional to the weight of the paddle. Do you know the formula for this? I bet you don't. Power is a conversion process. The play generated the power. Paddle and rubber only generate power if you burn them in a steam engine or similar.


Again no for the same reason. The player generates the power not the wrist band but the player had to generate more power to move the additional wrist band.


I weigh slightly less than 270 lb. I don't need a waist band. Yes, I must generate more power to move than a smaller person. However, there is a HUGE difference between moving me and moving the ball.


You are making my case. The weight transfer isn't as important as the resulting paddle speed.

If you need to think about weight transfer while playing, then you are lost. It should be natural. My old football coach would mock me by saying don't think, anticipate or react.

Why are you always arguing with idiots? Because you argue with imaginary straw men who understand even less about sports physics than you do (if such a thing is possible). Let's cut through your fog of bloviation, and state clearly that it's not just racket speed that counts, it's momentum. So mass, i.e., weight transfer, also counts. Which raises an interesting question. What counts as mass? Is it just the blade + rubber? No. It should be fairly clear that the mass of your hand and arm is involved to some degree. What about the rest of your body? That depends on technique. The physics involved is complicated, and doesn't come close to providing analytical clarity (see Adair, The Physics of Baseball, if you're interested in this subject). But experience teaches that you can hit your backhand harder with proper weight transfer.

 

[Loop Lob Smash]

I think 'supination' is the movement of hand, wrist and forearm, turning over so that at the end of the stroke or movement the palm faces upwards.

Using thumb and index finger is something else.

Not making assertions here; just expressing my thoughts based on what I have seen and heard...

Been trying to follow and understand the conversation so googled wrist supination. That lead me to find the diagram below, which I think is consistent with your @IB66 definition of supination. The diagram describes supination, flexion and ulnar deviation as the movements your wrist can make.
When I watched the Pitchford/Lodziac video, it seems to me that the difference between those two players is not so much supination, but Pitchford's greater flexion and ulnar deviation.
It could be that supination is an overused and misused word in discussions around table tennis backhand?
Just experimenting at my desk now, it seems to me that Ti Long's finger usage results in increased supination, so I'm not sure about your second statement.

When Hiroe describes Erika's backhand, she describes it as a thumb compressing the rubber to create drive. She also describes that emphasizing the pointer finger could be used to add spin.
In multiple Ti Long videos, he describes using thumb and pointer finger in combination to create friction (and hence spin). He draws the analogy of twisting a bottle top.

So I take it that the thumb can both press into the rubber to generate drive and stability, as well as exert pressure in a direction that would stretch the rubber in its plane to rotate the racket and generate friction and spin.

I guess that by placing different emphasis on the three wrist movement elements, you can create different kinds of backhand strokes to fit the style of player you want to be?

 

[Musaab]

Not making assertions here; just expressing my thoughts based on what I have seen and heard...

Been trying to follow and understand the conversation so googled wrist supination. That lead me to find the diagram below, which I think is consistent with your @IB66 definition of supination. The diagram describes supination, flexion and ulnar deviation as the movements your wrist can make.
When I watched the Pitchford/Lodziac video, it seems to me that the difference between those two players is not so much supination, but Pitchford's greater flexion and ulnar deviation.
It could be that supination is an overused and misused word in discussions around table tennis backhand?
Just experimenting at my desk now, it seems to me that Ti Long's finger usage results in increased supination, so I'm not sure about your second statement.

When Hiroe describes Erika's backhand, she describes it as a thumb compressing the rubber to create drive. She also describes that emphasizing the pointer finger could be used to add spin.
In multiple Ti Long videos, he describes using thumb and pointer finger in combination to create friction (and hence spin). He draws the analogy of twisting a bottle top.

So I take it that the thumb can both press into the rubber to generate drive and stability, as well as exert pressure in a direction that would stretch the rubber in its plane to rotate the racket and generate friction and spin.

I guess that by placing different emphasis on the three wrist movement elements, you can create different kinds of backhand strokes to fit the style of player you want to be?

View attachment 28109

I also think Hiroe meant Erika was pressing with position 1 while Ti Long is talking about position 2 ? I use position 2 when I say I press hard with the fingers

 

[Musaab]

You can just keep it loose until you need to use it for spinning. I can't imagine keeping it pressed all the time, it would be tiring af!

Will eventually do this when it becomes a second nature, as of right now I have to remind myself to do that amongst other things

 

[NextLevel]

I also think Hiroe meant Erika was pressing with position 1 while Ti Long is talking about position 2 ? I use position 2 when I say I press hard with the fingers

View attachment 28110​

Not really. If you press the thumb, you close the racket more on the backhand and push into the ball more. If you press the forefinger, you open the racket more or pronate more on the backhand. What she was saying was that for a backspin ball, she was hitting and pushing into the ball a bit too much.

 

[NextLevel]

Not making assertions here; just expressing my thoughts based on what I have seen and heard...

Been trying to follow and understand the conversation so googled wrist supination. That lead me to find the diagram below, which I think is consistent with your @IB66 definition of supination. The diagram describes supination, flexion and ulnar deviation as the movements your wrist can make.
When I watched the Pitchford/Lodziac video, it seems to me that the difference between those two players is not so much supination, but Pitchford's greater flexion and ulnar deviation.
It could be that supination is an overused and misused word in discussions around table tennis backhand?
Just experimenting at my desk now, it seems to me that Ti Long's finger usage results in increased supination, so I'm not sure about your second statement.

When Hiroe describes Erika's backhand, she describes it as a thumb compressing the rubber to create drive. She also describes that emphasizing the pointer finger could be used to add spin.
In multiple Ti Long videos, he describes using thumb and pointer finger in combination to create friction (and hence spin). He draws the analogy of twisting a bottle top.

So I take it that the thumb can both press into the rubber to generate drive and stability, as well as exert pressure in a direction that would stretch the rubber in its plane to rotate the racket and generate friction and spin.

I guess that by placing different emphasis on the three wrist movement elements, you can create different kinds of backhand strokes to fit the style of player you want to be?

View attachment 28109

Maybe I am biased because I play all my backhand strokes already in flexion, but try the following experiment:

start in flexion with adequate backswing, whip the wrist backwards (mild pronation) and move forwards to the finishing position, and decide whether most of the effect was caused by supination or by wrist movement. And then decide whether you would teach the technique by focusing on wrist usage or by focusing on supination.

Whatever you conclude after that is fine, and it will be more informed than just watching the video. Moreover, I wouldn't argue that Pitchford's backhand is better just because of supination, but I would say that the backswing of Tom is not as deep but that also isn't purely a matter of the wrist. Timing also plays a huge role in comfort with wrist flexion.

 

[NextLevel]

WTF is Nextlevel? Didn't he see my video? There are many FH loops. Some are too high but at an angle that would challenge his mobility. Yes, I roll my wrist which is something I preach against but then I don't normally play c-pen. Yes, my c-pen is sometimes a little awkward but this is me playing c-pen when I haven't played c-pen for a month. I show a few BH loops too but the Magnus effect isn't as pronounced as the FH loops. I am not a c-pen player, but I think c-pen is natural. RPB is natural. If you look, I prefer RPB over TPB. I move. I shift my weight a lot but I don't think about it. It is natural. If you have to think about it then you are going to be too late. I don't think about weight transfer. I don't really think about the stroke. I think only about where I want to hit the ball and how I must hit it too achieve my desired result. The impact during contact time is all that really matters.

How much weight must one transfer to hit a 2.7 gm TT ball? I challenge the forum. How much?

BTW, I see many videos where people are just trying to get the ball back. You can see I am aiming side to side and to the pocket. I try to setup shots by making my opponent move. I wonder how well Nextlevel can move with his legs if I block at an angle, short then long.

I have another video where I am playing with my push blocking video. When playing with my push blocking paddle I like to block short and side to side. I don't loop as much because my pushblocking paddle is not optimized for looping, but I do counter hit high loops. Blocking short, low and at angles wins points.

https://deltamotion.com/peter/TT/Jeff%20and%20Peter%20with%20Blocking%20LP%202min.mp4

I adapt to the paddle. It amazes me that so many can't adapt to even small changes and think that the rubber, blade or boosting is going to make them a better player. People are adaptable. Equipment is not.

You guys are pissing me off. To all you guys that think I suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect see this

I really should have sued MYTT into oblivion. I have the money to do it.
I really am known worldwide for making things work. The presenter mentioned all the magazine articles simulation and testing too. I wrote technical articles for magazines for 20 years. Now they are being reprinted because there isn't anything better. Can any of you say the same? I could teach a few different topic at a university. I have much more experience than almost all.
I am still a moderator on a Chinses servo control forum. Do any of you know that that is?
You guys are a bunch of know nothings. The things I have done have affected most of your lives. Most of you don't know or care how the stuff you buy is made.

So where is Nextlevel? Where is the never-will-be? Is he best at anything?
Where is Zeio for that matter. All he seems to do is post links to bogus sites that he really can't explain.
I am still waiting for Zeio to explain reduced mass.
Does anybody else want to stick their feet in it?
I am pissed. So many personal attacks with no facts to back them up.

I'm here. Your game is not worth discussing, the ball is relatively dead on most of those strokes. The fact that you think it is a loop is a source of disconnect, it's a Dunning-Kruger thing where you really don't appreciate how low your level of play is. And I don't find our discussions illuminating and neither do most people. I showed video tutorials from two world class players teaching supination (concave motions) as a backhand basic technique for topspin, and you keep telling people to keep the paddle angle relatively constant (whatever that means). And finally, here you are talking about rolling your wrist (pronation/supination), but rather than realizing that shows how dumb your advice is for yourself when you can't even stick to it, you are using the grip of the paddle as an excuse. It's all just a waste of everyone's time. So this is the final time I will waste anyone's time responding to you. Go troll someone else.

 

[NextLevel]

A subtitled version of this video had a huge influence on how I view the backswing and the stroke. The subtitled version might be on a dead channel or something. But I will post some of the video points where there are graphics that how your backswing arm should be shaped for maximum effect.

Another video - note the subtle differences in starting position between Fan's stroke and what the presenter shows at the beginning of the video, even though they are both essentially the same stroke.

 

[zeio]

I lost track but here is a video by 小宇老師/Teacher Xiaoyu on the common issues of BH that goes over what I wrote [1, 2]. The machine-translated English sub is a little off but it should be understandable.

@5:35, he goes over how the BH flip (dial in the sub) and rip (tear) should not be played with trunk rotation like in FH when at the table
横板反手框架常见问题解析这期整长了，懒着分上下集了【乒乓球小宇老师】 (Common issues of shakehand BH framework)
https://youtu.be/B_OIu-qNOEY?t=335

横板反手拨、撕、拉、拧的区别、应用场景及演示【乒乓球小宇老师】 (Differences, usage scenarios and demonstrations of shakehand BH flip, rip, loop, chiquita)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtiIE3ngxnk

 

[zeio]

You guys are pissing me off. To all you guys that think I suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect see this

Hardheaded engineer can't even get the definition of Dunning-Kruger effect right after well over a decade, for crying out loud.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias[2] in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities. Some researchers also include the opposite effect for high performers: their tendency to underestimate their skills. In popular culture, the Dunning–Kruger effect is often misunderstood as a claim about general overconfidence of people with low intelligence instead of specific overconfidence of people unskilled at a particular task.

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...76&title=control-ratings-for-equipment#778876

To pnachtwey, tt4me, brokenball et. al. who think you know shit about table tennis, see this:

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Seven pages about BH.

You guys are really something!!!

Just go throw some frisbees and use that same movement for BH.

Now go play some TT.

 

[Fedex78]

Seven pages about BH.

You guys are really something!!!

Just go throw some frisbees and use that same movement for BH.

Now go play some TT.

Spot on!

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Over-analyzing...
Over-thinking...
Proliferation of thoughts think this think that...
Just whack it. Shoot first, ask question later.

 

[NextLevel]

Over-analyzing...
Over-thinking...
Proliferation of thoughts think this think that...
Just whack it. Shoot first, ask question later.

If you coach a bunch of adult learners, including yourself, who want to get to a decently high amateur level, take this approach and tell me how well it works and then we can discuss.

 

[NextLevel]

To be fair, I wouldn't discuss most of this stuff with a student. IT is also best just to be around good players and to learn by copying and mirroring them. But when you are coaching someone, a mental model like "throwing a frisbee" works for some people, but if the student has bad physical mechanics for throwing things, it won't get you much. Being able to push someone's mental model and technique until you like what you see is part of coaching.

 

[Musaab]

Over-analyzing...
Over-thinking...
Proliferation of thoughts think this think that...
Just whack it. Shoot first, ask question later.

Assuming you are not trolling, "just whack it" works well with ppl like Felix Lebrun who started very young, with time they can hone everything. Other ppl, like me, who started this sport having 30+ years already don't have the time, the goal of over-analyzing and over-thinking as you describe it is to find shortcuts. Actually it worked well for my forehand

 

[IB66]

People find it easier to learn in specific ways, Some people learn by watching, others by reading, some by listening, as a coach you have to find the way they like to be taught!!

 

[dingyibvs]

Assuming you are not trolling, "just whack it" works well with ppl like Felix Lebrun who started very young, with time they can hone everything. Other ppl, like me, who started this sport having 30+ years already don't have the time, the goal of over-analyzing and over-thinking as you describe it is to find shortcuts. Actually it worked well for my forehand

It also depends on what level you aspire to achieve. In general the "just whack it" types who like to practice seem to top out around 1800-1900, and those who just like to play games top out around 1600-1700. It's only students of the game or those who play pretty much everyday for decades who I see go beyond 2000 without consistent coaching.

 

[blahness]

It also depends on what level you aspire to achieve. In general the "just whack it" types who like to practice seem to top out around 1800-1900, and those who just like to play games top out around 1600-1700. It's only students of the game or those who play pretty much everyday for decades who I see go beyond 2000 without consistent coaching.

Precisely.... This sport is technical af and very difficult. It's also what I enjoy about it, there are so many different shots to learn! And tweaking your own shots is part of the fun too.