How do you coach players that have limited strokes?

[Amayzde]

Hi folks,

Something that seems to be a problem with alot of players at my club is that they struggle against opponents that only have 1 tactic: push push push to their backhand. While the most obvious thing to do would be to just loop the push, its a high risk shot for them which they would miss more often then not.

The first thing I usually tell them is to stop serving with backspin, so that at least on their own serves they don't get trapped anymore. I also tell them to make the opponent move, preferably every shot, and force a low quality return or even a direct error. This seems to make it slightly better

But that pretty much all I can think about. I personally dont face these problems because I am comfortable looping every return. I could tell them to practice their backhand loop, but thats not going to help them during the match they are playing in that moment.

So what what kind of encouraging advice would you have for players that struggle with surtain situations in a match because he (or she) doesnt have the technical capability to turn them around?

 

[Leno]

Well, I'm gonna assume that this is just their own serve play, because there are so many options with receiving.

If they lack the confidence in their looping ability on the backhand, the approach you are going for is correct.
Tell them to mix up the serves with long serves as well to get the opponent out of the "I can just push everything" mentality. Imo it is easier to focus on different spin than actually the length. Adding your pointers about placement and spin it should be a total different game.

Just loop with FH, bro!
Jk, but that is a valid option for certain players as well if they serve wide and opponent is set to push to BH.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Hi folks,

Something that seems to be a problem with alot of players at my club is that they struggle against opponents that only have 1 tactic: push push push to their backhand. While the most obvious thing to do would be to just loop the push, its a high risk shot for them which they would miss more often then not.

The first thing I usually tell them is to stop serving with backspin, so that at least on their own serves they don't get trapped anymore. I also tell them to make the opponent move, preferably every shot, and force a low quality return or even a direct error. This seems to make it slightly better

But that pretty much all I can think about. I personally dont face these problems because I am comfortable looping every return. I could tell them to practice their backhand loop, but thats not going to help them during the match they are playing in that moment.

So what what kind of encouraging advice would you have for players that struggle with surtain situations in a match because he (or she) doesnt have the technical capability to turn them around?

Pivot / step-around is your friend.

If they say they cannot FH loop / open up, then just resign to the fact that they are O.B. PLAYER!

 

[Dominikk85]

First you have to find out whether they want to get better.

Many players are fine with having a limited, low level play and really there is nothing wrong with that, whether your level is 1000 or 1700, you won't make any money with your game so if you enjoy being a "hack" that is perfectly fine.

If they do want to get better they have to accept that learning new techniques will be a lot of work and their match results might temporarily get worse before they get better. If they are fine with that they should go for improving, if not continue with your old game.

You also could make a compromise of letting them mostly keep their old play and then teach them one offensive stroke that they will only use in very favorable situations. Getting consistent with offensive strokes takes a lot of work until you hit more winners than you make errors but if you tell them to only attack when the opponent ball is very easy to attack (like high and relatively short) it might work with a limited amount of work.

 

[JJ Ng]

Hi folks,

Something that seems to be a problem with alot of players at my club is that they struggle against opponents that only have 1 tactic: push push push to their backhand. While the most obvious thing to do would be to just loop the push, its a high risk shot for them which they would miss more often then not.

The first thing I usually tell them is to stop serving with backspin, so that at least on their own serves they don't get trapped anymore. I also tell them to make the opponent move, preferably every shot, and force a low quality return or even a direct error. This seems to make it slightly better

But that pretty much all I can think about. I personally dont face these problems because I am comfortable looping every return. I could tell them to practice their backhand loop, but thats not going to help them during the match they are playing in that moment.

So what what kind of encouraging advice would you have for players that struggle with surtain situations in a match because he (or she) doesnt have the technical capability to turn them around?

The correct answer: put a golden Viscaria in their hands and all problems are solved!

On a more serious note, I agree with you. I think the keys are: 1) return the serves all over the table so they can get an opening for their forehand loop and 2) serve some no spin and some top spins for a change.

I have seen players who advance quite quickly just serving no spin and top spin. In the plastic ball era, pure heavy backspin serves are not as deadly as before during the celluloid era. So I see people increasingly using no spin and top spin serves EXCLUSIVELY so they open up the rally very quickly. That is a very good strategy.

I like to serve heavy underspin serve so I can loop on the third ball attack. But that style seems to be out of style nowadays, no pun intended.

 

[Tyce]

Looping the push is a risky stroke... Until you practice it, in matchplay, a LOT.

It's cliché as heck, but if you keep pushing, you'll get better at... pushing! If you keep looping, guess what you'll get better at

So what do you coach them?
1. yes, it's a match, but that doesn't mean that winning is the only important thing here. They have to start thinking long-term. How do they want to play a match at the same level one year from now? And work towards that goal, not just in training, but in matches especially.
Losing is not a problem, if you played what you wanted to play. Rating is irrelevant if it's not representing the style you want to get stronger in. Who cares if you're an 1100 rated pusher if you're 800 when it comes to looping...

2. if you see other means to gain good points against an opponent, sure, go for it. If you can outsmart them, apply placement, serve and spin variations, and build the base for a sure win - it's a win. If that's how they *want* to play, and if that's the level they *want* to keep playing at, there's no problem with that. But at that point it's your expectations as a coach that might need adjusting

I mean you're Dutch too, so I can easily put levels to it...
Placement, pushing, variation, and outsmarting your opponent will maybe get you to 4th class (senior) if you get good at it. If you want to advance above that, you *will* need to build a solid method of attack. You will need to start learning to impose your game on the opponent, rather than just adapting to what they are playing.
So if these people are happy to play 6th, 5th, and have a small chance at 4th, then they can pick whatever aspect of the game and become good at that. Up to that point it's up to you to help them get good at their current strengths.
If they express the desire to advance, it will take building. And that will mean they are going to experience a period where their rating will go down because they are changing their gameplay.

 

[blahness]

A good intermediate step is the no spin lift, where you simply lift the ball with mostly legs so that it clears the net. Once they get the security of clearing the net with ease, spin can be added easily with the fingers. Lifting the ball is way easier than looping it, and is also quite a useful variation (it can develop to become a fake loop if you add the loop followthrough after lifting)

Ti Long has a pretty good video on this:

 

[Amayzde]

First you have to find out whether they want to get better.

Many players are fine with having a limited, low level play and really there is nothing wrong with that, whether your level is 1000 or 1700, you won't make any money with your game so if you enjoy being a "hack" that is perfectly fine.

If they do want to get better they have to accept that learning new techniques will be a lot of work and their match results might temporarily get worse before they get better. If they are fine with that they should go for improving, if not continue with your old game.

You also could make a compromise of letting them mostly keep their old play and then teach them one offensive stroke that they will only use in very favorable situations. Getting consistent with offensive strokes takes a lot of work until you hit more winners than you make errors but if you tell them to only attack when the opponent ball is very easy to attack (like high and relatively short) it might work with a limited amount of work.

Yes, they do actually want to become better, but they just don't know how to. They ask me for advice because they can't stand the patience they need to play against thesse opponents.

And I agree, to implement new techniques you might lose a little more often then usually. I guess they cant really grasp this for themselfs. They usually get frustrated and complain that the opponent plays like a... 5 letter word.

I remember having the same issues when I played their level. Eventually I dedicaded my entire training at improving my backhand. It took me quite a few months before I was finally able to implement it consistently during matches.

 

[Dominikk85]

Yes, they do actually want to become better, but they just don't know how to. They ask me for advice because they can't stand the patience they need to play against thesse opponents.

And I agree, to implement new techniques you might lose a little more often then usually. I guess they cant really grasp this for themselfs. They usually get frustrated and complain that the opponent plays like a... 5 letter word.

I remember having the same issues when I played their level. Eventually I dedicaded my entire training at improving my backhand. It took me quite a few months before I was finally able to implement it consistently during matches.

The patience and willingness to endure some losses is the tough thing. If you take some coaching lessons on technique, try it once in a match, lose and revert back to the old style it won't work.

 

[Amayzde]

Looping the push is a risky stroke... Until you practice it, in matchplay, a LOT.

It's cliché as heck, but if you keep pushing, you'll get better at... pushing! If you keep looping, guess what you'll get better at

So what do you coach them?
1. yes, it's a match, but that doesn't mean that winning is the only important thing here. They have to start thinking long-term. How do they want to play a match at the same level one year from now? And work towards that goal, not just in training, but in matches especially.
Losing is not a problem, if you played what you wanted to play. Rating is irrelevant if it's not representing the style you want to get stronger in. Who cares if you're an 1100 rated pusher if you're 800 when it comes to looping...

2. if you see other means to gain good points against an opponent, sure, go for it. If you can outsmart them, apply placement, serve and spin variations, and build the base for a sure win - it's a win. If that's how they *want* to play, and if that's the level they *want* to keep playing at, there's no problem with that. But at that point it's your expectations as a coach that might need adjusting

I mean you're Dutch too, so I can easily put levels to it...
Placement, pushing, variation, and outsmarting your opponent will maybe get you to 4th class (senior) if you get good at it. If you want to advance above that, you *will* need to build a solid method of attack. You will need to start learning to impose your game on the opponent, rather than just adapting to what they are playing.
So if these people are happy to play 6th, 5th, and have a small chance at 4th, then they can pick whatever aspect of the game and become good at that. Up to that point it's up to you to help them get good at their current strengths.
If they express the desire to advance, it will take building. And that will mean they are going to experience a period where their rating will go down because they are changing their gameplay.

Haha thats right, I was talking about 4th class here.

To be more specific: mostly youth players that come from National C level and now transitioned to seniors. Its a completely different game for them now. They are so used to play fast most of the time. Now they have to play opponents twice their age. And they play... lets call it more reserved.

Their forehand looping game is probably 1100. But their patience is more like 700 lol. And I know what its like, I faced the exact same issues when I became a senior 10 years ago. So I know what its like. Eventually when I had enough I decided it was finally time to learn a proper backhand technique. It took some time to consistently use it in matches, but eventually it paid off.

This 'new generation' seems to prefer avoiding things they don't like. They also hate to play against long pimples, but they also wont play against them in practice matches...

But yeah I think there is no way around it. If you dont practice something, you wont get good at it. And if your game has a big weakness your opponent can exploit, then that weakness limits the rest of your game.

 

[Tyce]

Haha thats right, I was talking about 4th class here.

To be more specific: mostly youth players that come from National C level and now transitioned to seniors. Its a completely different game for them now. They are so used to play fast most of the time. Now they have to play opponents twice their age. And they play... lets call it more reserved.

Their forehand looping game is probably 1100. But their patience is more like 700 lol. And I know what its like, I faced the exact same issues when I became a senior 10 years ago. So I know what its like. Eventually when I had enough I decided it was finally time to learn a proper backhand technique. It took some time to consistently use it in matches, but eventually it paid off.

This 'new generation' seems to prefer avoiding things they don't like. They also hate to play against long pimples, but they also wont play against them in practice matches...

But yeah I think there is no way around it. If you dont practice something, you wont get good at it. And if your game has a big weakness your opponent can exploit, then that weakness limits the rest of your game.

I went from 3rd youth to 6-7th senior back in the days... I remember vividly being immensly frustrated by the fact that opponents just don't play a conventional game!
And you're right... In that situation, you expect the opponent to play similar to you - but they don't. In pace, in placement, in tactics, in how they counter your balls, it's a whole new world really.

My angle as a coach would be to show them where the challenge lies, give them the perspective there's a game to be won taking on that challenge, but at the same time be mindful that it's not going to change overnight. Gamify it in some way shape or form if you are really invested, like idk 10c for each rally they use a BH opening loop (regardless if they win or lose!). Obviously only engage those games when you know the opponent is going to give them trouble using their own techniques.
Spin it around, make it fun. It'll work - they're still just kids at heart

 

[NetProphet]

Hi folks,

Something that seems to be a problem with alot of players at my club is that they struggle against opponents that only have 1 tactic: push push push to their backhand. While the most obvious thing to do would be to just loop the push, its a high risk shot for them which they would miss more often then not.

The first thing I usually tell them is to stop serving with backspin, so that at least on their own serves they don't get trapped anymore. I also tell them to make the opponent move, preferably every shot, and force a low quality return or even a direct error. This seems to make it slightly better

But that pretty much all I can think about. I personally dont face these problems because I am comfortable looping every return. I could tell them to practice their backhand loop, but thats not going to help them during the match they are playing in that moment.

So what what kind of encouraging advice would you have for players that struggle with surtain situations in a match because he (or she) doesnt have the technical capability to turn them around?

If they play to only win this match without using it to practice their looping against backspin in a competitive environment then they're actually holding themselves back. Possibly better to accept the loss in the pursuit of improvement?

But.....there are push tactics too of course which usually revolve around what you've already said, moving the player around, but also varying the amount of backspin and short long if possible as well as left right. It's difficult to fully exploit these tactics tho if you aren't willing to attack a weak backspin ball. The other problem is they are probably not as good as pushing as a push player either, as the push player has often perfected this side of things so, short term tactics, maybe you get a win but long term strategy - probably better to have some losses but know that its all helping to improve your pushing, looping AND overall development past the point where this will no longer be an issue.

 

[KM1976]

There are limitations to an individual's game, but we need to understand that these limitations might be due to several reasons and additionally, these could be some which an individual has to live with and yes everyone has it. A good opponent will more often than not find it and exploit it.
Having said that, limitation does not means that a player cannot learn variations in 1. Speed, 2. Spin and 3. Placement.
I had personally played against players who only push and block. But they have worked so much on these two aspects of their game that they can show endless possibilities to their opponents. Actually, that was an eye opener for me as it gave me a chance to look at the game from different perspectives.
So, if you need to teach a player who has limited strokes then -
1. Be encouraging and supportive - this is the most important thing to practice and show to a student, nevermind how good a coach you are.
2. Talk about variations - encourage them to experiment - my coach use to place orange cones on the table and asked me to hit around them or push around them.
3. Construct a game plan with them - In a coach-student relationship - a coach should shoulder the burden of being the mind whereas a student should be the one who trusts and executes the plan. This changes slowly as the student matures and develops more confidence by practicing more and more and also encountering the same game situations more and more. But in the initial phase when there are lot of doubts, you as a coach need to take up this responsibility.
4. Add additional sauce to the above mix, if you find the taste slightly bland.

Thanks, KM1976

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Hi folks,

Something that seems to be a problem with alot of players at my club is that they struggle against opponents that only have 1 tactic: push push push to their backhand. While the most obvious thing to do would be to just loop the push, its a high risk shot for them which they would miss more often then not.

The first thing I usually tell them is to stop serving with backspin, so that at least on their own serves they don't get trapped anymore. I also tell them to make the opponent move, preferably every shot, and force a low quality return or even a direct error. This seems to make it slightly better

But that pretty much all I can think about. I personally dont face these problems because I am comfortable looping every return. I could tell them to practice their backhand loop, but thats not going to help them during the match they are playing in that moment.

So what what kind of encouraging advice would you have for players that struggle with surtain situations in a match because he (or she) doesnt have the technical capability to turn them around?

When stuck in pushing game
1. push to forehand, bh, fh, center, mix it up
2. add on some light underspin push and some heavy ones,

This will cause the incoming ball to be of different arc and different spin strengths and allow for lower risks shot when attacking.
ie, if I push a little to no spin push, the opponent pushes too hard, the ball would float a bit higher with less spin and that would be lower risk for me to attack.

of course, if they read that you have push a non spin push, they could attack you too with lower risk.

 

[NextLevel]

Hi folks,

Something that seems to be a problem with alot of players at my club is that they struggle against opponents that only have 1 tactic: push push push to their backhand. While the most obvious thing to do would be to just loop the push, its a high risk shot for them which they would miss more often then not.

The first thing I usually tell them is to stop serving with backspin, so that at least on their own serves they don't get trapped anymore. I also tell them to make the opponent move, preferably every shot, and force a low quality return or even a direct error. This seems to make it slightly better

But that pretty much all I can think about. I personally dont face these problems because I am comfortable looping every return. I could tell them to practice their backhand loop, but thats not going to help them during the match they are playing in that moment.

So what what kind of encouraging advice would you have for players that struggle with surtain situations in a match because he (or she) doesnt have the technical capability to turn them around?

Your approach is correct, it is hard to coach a player without skills to win against a player who can't fall into his flaws. You look for patterns they can implement in their game, but ultimately, they have to decide if they want to level up their skills or not. And they should be able to pivot and play forehand all over the table if they don't want to learn backhand topspin opener. And they should develop skills that enable them to get easier attacks in the pushing game. Ultimately, in the match, they should look for patterns that favor them, but every limitation costs you time and makes you a worse player. But in the match, you have to look for something to work with and you are doing the right thing.

 

[Tyce]

If your club was a bit closer I'd be more than happy to come over 😅

 

[Dr Evil]

I'd keep it simple and add only two things to your serving advice. First, they're only allowed to push to wide fh, wide bh, or crossover/elbow. Nothing to middle fh or bh. Second, rather than focusing directly on spin and speed variation, I'd ask them to focus on timing variation of their contact point; in particular, I'd advise switching from one shot to the next between early off the bounce and late after the peak.