WTT Champions Frankfurt 2024

[turbozed]

1. Because the last 2-3 years isn't much of his career, especially for someone who was a notable junior. And our arguments didn't rest on the entirety of his career, our arguments were trying to understand how one got to the idea that much of his career was the last few years. So what we wanted was something that showed us how this argument was not simply recency bias run amok.

2. Because "close" games are common in TT and we were trying to understand what made Gauzy different from players like Anders Lind. Kiril Gerassimenko, Kofi Niwa, Anton Kallberg, who have all had lots of close matches with the Chinese and other top ranked players and often lost.

3. Because we are not convinced that you have come close to making the argument of much of his career for someone who was already a known quantity in 2011. His adult career is at least 12 years. I believe he was already French champion in 2015. You haven't even seriously made the case that the last 2-3 years qualify has much of his career. In the end while the discussion is partly semantic, I don't even think you have really bridged the gap on substance. If there was some attempt to show that Gauzy had these losses in a lot of his 13 plus year career or even 9 year drinking age in the USA career, maybe this would have been less of an issue. But there hasn't been any serious attempt before Tony's posts to show that there is a familiarity with Gauzy as a talented junior and young national champion and that the results he is having now are typical of many parts (or much) of his career. I might have missed these attempts so I will happily read them if they are pointed out to me.

If 2 years is a great amount of anyone's professional career, feel free to take that route. People would struggle to consider 2 years a great amount of Felix Lebruns career and he is only 18!

Thanks for taking the time to answer specifically the questions I asked. Seems like some arguments were maybe directed towards an audience that might hold more negative views about Gauzy's career than my actual post intended. Don't appreciate having views misattributed to me, but part of that is my fault for being unclear and using vague terms. At the very least I learned more about Gauzy in this discussion.

From my knowledge of other sports, however, I actually would argue that even 2 years is a 'great amount' of time in the career of a professional athlete, especially in a sport where people retire sometimes at age 25 and only spend a few years playing at the top level. But I'll let you and Tony argue that point since you guys have watched this sport for decades and these are the things I'm still learning about it.

 

[zeio]

The one that you disagree with
And then said he can’t compete with Chinese

This is no different than zeio retirement of players that cant beat chinese players.

Don't drag me into this with another straw man of yours.

 

[zeio]

From my knowledge of other sports, however, I actually would argue that even 2 years is a 'great amount' of time in the career of a professional athlete, especially in a sport where people retire sometimes at age 25 and only spend a few years playing at the top level. But I'll let you and Tony argue that point since you guys have watched this sport for decades and these are the things I'm still learning about it.

2 years is a "great amount" of time? Now that doesn't sit well with me. May I remind you of what you said to me in your argument back in January (that I reminded you again in March)?

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/wtt-star-contender-doha-2024.32659/post-439692
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/wtt-singapore-smash-2024-3-7-3-17.33147/post-447069

The fact that Hayata is (still) not part of that club after 2.42 years could be an indication that the way she had played thus far did not maximize her good luck, as suggested in the paper.

Before comparing table tennis with card games, know that ML and Ovtcharov have met 20 times ONLY over 14 years (1/2009-11/2023) and the latter is still "expecting" his first win. ML and Mizutani have met 15 times ONLY over 14 years (11/2004-3/2019) and ML even wondered if Mizutani's biggest regret was not being able to win once.

 

[turbozed]

2 years is a "great amount" of time? Now that doesn't sit well with me. May I remind you of what you said to me in your argument back in January (that I reminded you again in March)?

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/wtt-star-contender-doha-2024.32659/post-439692
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/wtt-singapore-smash-2024-3-7-3-17.33147/post-447069

You're trying to remind me of what I said to you in a different discussion and you ended up quoting yourself. Did you do this by mistake?

 

[NetProphet]

At a certain point, people will believe whatever they want to believe even when they have no evidence to explain why they believe it.

At a certain point then maybe you are just arguing in an effort to make people believe what YOU believe?

There have been so many posts on this now I haven't read them all but I'm gonna sum Gauzy up in my eyes.
He has had some (subject to definition) 'close' matches recently and he was doing the same in 2017 and I've seen flashes in between. Unsubstantiated I agree because I can't pull out tonnes of results and examples from the top of my head but he's one of the players I've always liked watching, great flair maybe setting him apart from others in my mind.
Anyway, none of that is enough for you to agree the initial statement is an accurate description for his career.
Fair enough 🤝

The reasoning is subjective and maybe if I'd watched even more TT I'd agree that description fits other players better?
Anyway, you and Pongcommenter make so many posts that I appreciate that I really have to stop my posts on this now cos I have no issue with your views.
I just don't think my view is as crazy as you both think it is!

 

[NetProphet]

And he didn't win that point or two, didn't go up 2-1, and didn't win the match. So how close was it really?

This is the crux of where we differ in views.
You are correct. And the scoreboard reads 1-3, doesn't look close really.

Most table tennis players and fans should know that not all points are created equally, and that scorelines of a match don't tell the full story.

So my take when watching it live was it was exciting. Having lost 3-0 in Montpellier (even 8,9&10 wasn't a million miles away) he was hammered in the first set but batted back to 1-1 and had a set point in the 3rd. That was his 'if only' moment and that's exactly how I see him.
Anyway dude, I respectfully accept your view on it all while not entirely agreeing.
It seems I may have rose tinted glasses where Gauzy is concerned but honestly, as I root for the underdogs, that 'so close, if only' template can apply to a lot of players hovering around the top 30 this past decade!

 

[Metaxa]

You keep bringing up this parallel vs diagonal thing, but you are a good enough player to know that playing the parallel places demands on your anticipation while playing the diagonal reduces those demands. His footwork is not good enough to adjust to consistently playing on the parallel. I could be completely wrong, but that is my opinion.

Because I see it happening so little. Although there is improvement on it in the last year by a few players.
Nay, quite right what you say. I just want to point out that people practise diagonal training ad infinitum but forget that it's better to play parallel and practise it frequently. Playing diagonally is in the natural movement of our arm.
Parallel training won't fix everything either there has to be some movement too but, above all, it has to be in your head to play those balls.
Watching the LYJ vs A. Lebrun match today, I note that LYJ is the smarter one out of the top 20 in playing parallel balls.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

I remember Gauzy v Lebesson in EC final. I was sure Gauzy would win but he didn’t. At the time I thought there would be many other finals for him and he would win at least one but a year later I realized Timo and Dima wouldn’t let him go there again easily and by the time both retire he might lose his form or somebody else would come

Gauzy is a very entertaining player and his match against Xu Xin will probably stay his most memorable one even he didn’t get any medal afterwards and he had to wait for Lebruns to get team medals in WC MY and OG MT events.

I think Gauzy lacked a bit of power. He wasn’t fast enough to play near the table and tends to go back too quickly in the rally (why ? Because his short game is not good enough ?) but his lack of power means his percentage is not high enough there even though he’s capable of very spinny backhands from the backcourt , a shot not all pros can do as consistently as he does.

I don’t think Gauzy was ever a real threat not only to Chinese but also top Japanese and Korean players. His win to Xu Xin will stay apart. Anyone can get a game or score a good point against a higher ranked player, or occasionally have a tight match. But the career stats don’t lie.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I remember Gauzy v Lebesson in EC final. I was sure Gauzy would win but he didn’t. At the time I thought there would be many other finals for him and he would win at least one but a year later I realized Timo and Dima wouldn’t let him go there again easily and by the time both retire he might lose his form or somebody else would come

Gauzy is a very entertaining player and his match against Xu Xin will probably stay his most memorable one even he didn’t get any medal afterwards and he had to wait for Lebruns to get team medals in WC MY and OG MT events.

I think Gauzy lacked a bit of power. He wasn’t fast enough to play near the table and tends to go back too quickly in the rally (why ? Because his short game is not good enough ?) but his lack of power means his percentage is not high enough there even though he’s capable of very spinny backhands from the backcourt , a shot not all pros can do as consistently as he does.

I don’t think Gauzy was ever a real threat not only to Chinese but also top Japanese and Korean players. His win to Xu Xin will stay apart. Anyone can get a game or score a good point against a higher ranked player, or occasionally have a tight match. But the career stats don’t lie.

in my books, he is one of those that could of been in the picture, but did not.
too many close ones, especially FZD in Tokyo
G3 when he took the 2-1 lead, he was 10-2 at one stage, score sheet will show 11-8. That is why watching is so much more important than just reading.
at 30 years old... not sure what more bests we can see out of him

 

[NextLevel]

Because I see it happening so little. Although there is improvement on it in the last year by a few players.
Nay, quite right what you say. I just want to point out that people practise diagonal training ad infinitum but forget that it's better to play parallel and practise it frequently. Playing diagonally is in the natural movement of our arm.
Parallel training won't fix everything either there has to be some movement too but, above all, it has to be in your head to play those balls.
Watching the LYJ vs A. Lebrun match today, I note that LYJ is the smarter one out of the top 20 in playing parallel balls.

LYJ is a lefty, it makes a bigger difference for him than for other players. Even Wang often does the same.

 

[turbozed]

Hana Goda is made of some tough stuff. Dropping first two games 11-2 and 11-1 and she looked on the verge of breaking down.

Pulled herself together and won the 3rd game. Whatever happens, I'm really impressed by the mental fortitude of this young woman.

Also credit to the one guy chanting "let's go Hana, let's go" the whole time and giving her support lol

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

in my books, he is one of those that could of been in the picture, but did not.
too many close ones, especially FZD in Tokyo
G3 when he took the 2-1 lead, he was 10-2 at one stage, score sheet will show 11-8. That is why watching is so much more important than just reading.
at 30 years old... not sure what more bests we can see out of him

i don't remember that match. Good fight from Gauzy
interesting to see FZD choooing louder than Harimoto in that match. CNT players keep their chooos only for big WTTC and OG matches

 

[backspacer]

I'm still positive. Looks like I will be missing tomorrow and worst case Saturday too...

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

i don't remember that match. Good fight from Gauzy
interesting to see FZD choooing louder than Harimoto in that match. CNT players keep their chooos only for big WTTC and OG matches

teams match is probably the reason.

 

[backspacer]

No one has mentioned it yet, but the evening session is starting at 6.30PM this year compared to 6PM last year. Can't say I'm a fan because it just means people have to wait longer, almost 2,5h on Sunday after the first session. There is nothing close by to grab a meal at and you could argue that gives your more time to eat out somewhere, but you never know when the first session ends and leaving the venue to do anything by foot is sketchy. There also isn't much to do at the venue. The fan village is a joke and you don't need two hours to check out merch even if you are interested.

 

[NetProphet]

No one has mentioned it yet, but the evening session is starting at 6.30PM this year compared to 6PM last year. Can't say I'm a fan because it just means people have to wait longer, almost 2,5h on Sunday after the first session. There is nothing close by to grab a meal at and you could argue that gives your more time to eat out somewhere, but you never know when the first session ends and leaving the venue to do anything by foot is sketchy. There also isn't much to do at the venue. The fan village is a joke and you don't need two hours to check out merch even if you are interested.

And the VIP Tickets cost an absolute fortune;
If you do have them then that lounge is awesome with all the food and beer you want in preparation for S2 but you're right, it's boring around that district for sure!
Nothing to do but but beers for 2hours.
Unless you might get on a table at the an area if you're lucky and can pass half an hour playing TT?

 

[d3nium]

Why is the arena so dead?

They should have all WTT events in France!

 

[ThePongCommenter]

This is the crux of where we differ in views.
You are correct. And the scoreboard reads 1-3, doesn't look close really.

So my take when watching it live was it was exciting. Having lost 3-0 in Montpellier (even 8,9&10 wasn't a million miles away) he was hammered in the first set but batted back to 1-1 and had a set point in the 3rd. That was his 'if only' moment and that's exactly how I see him.
Anyway dude, I respectfully accept your view on it all while not entirely agreeing.
It seems I may have rose tinted glasses where Gauzy is concerned but honestly, as I root for the underdogs, that 'so close, if only' template can apply to a lot of players hovering around the top 30 this past decade!

Totally fair

 

[ThePongCommenter]

No one has mentioned it yet, but the evening session is starting at 6.30PM this year compared to 6PM last year. Can't say I'm a fan because it just means people have to wait longer, almost 2,5h on Sunday after the first session. There is nothing close by to grab a meal at and you could argue that gives your more time to eat out somewhere, but you never know when the first session ends and leaving the venue to do anything by foot is sketchy. There also isn't much to do at the venue. The fan village is a joke and you don't need two hours to check out merch even if you are interested.

Matches always run behind because of how much time they allot per match in the schedule. But yes as the tournament winds down there will be more of a break period in between. Fan village is always a joke.

 

[backspacer]

And the VIP Tickets cost an absolute fortune;
If you do have them then that lounge is awesome with all the food and beer you want in preparation for S2 but you're right, it's boring around that district for sure!
Nothing to do but but beers for 2hours.
Unless you might get on a table at the an area if you're lucky and can pass half an hour playing TT?

There was a small tent last year in the "fan village" with tables, but can't take them seriously. Inside the venue there was the Spinsight small where you can measure spin, but that's about it for activities there. It's also really cold now.