Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[NextLevel]

While I am a fan of such videos, it is important to remember the dangers of overanalyzing finished/current technique vs. underanalyzing development of technique or technical evolution. Studying the finished technique of a high level player might show you what he does but doesn't lat you know how he developed it and whether given your physical gifts it is what you want in your game. I tend to use such videos less to fix my technique and more to illustrate to people who are sometimes too focused on technique the diversity of what is out there. The Jun Mizutani practicing with Koki Niwa at World Cup 2017 as well as the Ma Long and Lin Gaoyuan and the Dima-Boll and even Rosskopf-Boll videos from that world cup are some of my favorites for that reason.

 

[Novarac23]

I honestly don know what’s wrong with me when I play tournaments. I swear my level drops to 400 usatt (Well i know at least some of the things, i point them out below but this was more of me venting lol) Played two events this weekemd, first one u1400, made it out of the group stage and lost right after. It was a tight match but overall decent performance. Secomd event was u1200 and I lost all my games.

three main issues:
* for u1400 I played really well second game and the guy was just hitting nets and edges and I lost. That effected me mentally in a negative way a decent amount and I lost next two games. I should not have been bothered by that at all.
* for under 1200 i lost my first match against a guy on a much lower lvl then me. Hones no idea what’s wrong happened but I was just getting more and more annoyed throughout that match and then it negatively effected rest of my matches. Again should not have been that annoyed about it and need to play one point at a time but it gets hard in situations like this (especially because I can carry my weight around 1600 lvl guys)
* in both events i noticed my knees cave in when I move around in an athetic stance. It looks wonky and is prolly leading to me not being able to move as quickly as ai want to. It id weird since my knees do cave in but thats when I squat over 230lbs, did not expect it in an athletic stance. one easy fix i am going to practice is have my toes point slightly out (i noticed all pro tall players do this) instead of feet being parallel and toes pointing straight. Another thing is work on my abductor muscles more which I’ll start regularly doing.

all in all very frustrating experience but I had some mean backhand loops that i could not have done a few months ago

 

[AutomaticBackhand]

I honestly don know what’s wrong with me when I play tournaments. I swear my level drops to 400 usatt (Well i know at least some of the things, i point them out below but this was more of me venting lol) Played two events this weekemd, first one u1400, made it out of the group stage and lost right after. It was a tight match but overall decent performance. Secomd event was u1200 and I lost all my games.

three main issues:
* for u1400 I played really well second game and the guy was just hitting nets and edges and I lost. That effected me mentally in a negative way a decent amount and I lost next two games. I should not have been bothered by that at all.
* for under 1200 i lost my first match against a guy on a much lower lvl then me. Hones no idea what’s wrong happened but I was just getting more and more annoyed throughout that match and then it negatively effected rest of my matches. Again should not have been that annoyed about it and need to play one point at a time but it gets hard in situations like this (especially because I can carry my weight around 1600 lvl guys)
* in both events i noticed my knees cave in when I move around in an athetic stance. It looks wonky and is prolly leading to me not being able to move as quickly as ai want to. It id weird since my knees do cave in but thats when I squat over 230lbs, did not expect it in an athletic stance. one easy fix i am going to practice is have my toes point slightly out (i noticed all pro tall players do this) instead of feet being parallel and toes pointing straight. Another thing is work on my abductor muscles more which I’ll start regularly doing.

all in all very frustrating experience but I had some mean backhand loops that i could not have done a few months ago

There is probably many factors contributing to your poor performance, and it's hard to properly judge simply like this.

I assume you're still relatively "new" to all of this, so expect it to get better with time and experience.
A good quote I heard once was:
"You can't Google experience."


Regardless of that, what helped me the most was properly warming up before the match and also cooling down, gaining the necessary confidence and getting into a reasonable mindset for the match.

Here is what I wrote earlier:

1. Actually warm up and get your body going at least 20-30 Minutes before your first match.
Not Just drives on the table.
Get your Heart rate to the level where it will be at in the match - for me it's around 150-175 bpm if it's really intense and requires my full focus.

2. Then, have at least around 5 minute cool down sometime before the first match - for me it's getting down to 110-120 bpm.


3. Gather confidence in practice and early in the match.
If it's 3rd Ball Forehand Loops, do that.
If it's backhand looping rallies, do that.
You don't need to hit them all, but have the confidence and trust in yourself to do it reasonably well in the "heightened" state that you'll be in, in the match.
Something that you can rely on in the match, and don't need to "fix" once you're in the match.
Minor adjustments are obviously fine and sometimes necessary, but nothing big.
The more things you want to have confidence in, the more you should practice them before / test them early in the match, but it's not always a requirement.


For me: If I'm confident in my serves + 3rd Ball attacks, it's often enough to beat my opponents at our current level.
I adjust to my opponent and the game, but ideally I don't have many thoughts "inwards".
My focus is on the match and how to win.
The rest often follows.


4. You can't deny the adrenalin / cortisol from happening, only minimally, so try your best to control yourself under it's influence, don't have any "expectations" that you have to meet,
don't hesitate - "He who hesitates is lost."


5. Some controlled breathing with longer exhales than inhales helps, but again, it won't deny or get rid of the adrenalin / cortisol, but it helps.

For the breathing part, I am already used to controlling it regularly, so it isn't such a big deal for me, but it might be for you.

 

[OvrChkn]

Staying warm is definitely crucial, especially if you have small breaks in-between matches. I'll probably start bringing a pair of sweats. The ramp up gets to be tough for later matches if you have a decent break.

 

[NextLevel]

There is probably many factors contributing to your poor performance, and it's hard to properly judge simply like this.

I assume you're still relatively "new" to all of this, so expect it to get better with time and experience.
A good quote I heard once was:
"You can't Google experience."


Regardless of that, what helped me the most was properly warming up before the match and also cooling down, gaining the necessary confidence and getting into a reasonable mindset for the match.

Here is what I wrote earlier:


For the breathing part, I am already used to controlling it regularly, so it isn't such a big deal for me, but it might be for you.

Love the "You can't Google experience". As a 1200 or lower player, sometimes even up to 2200, you don't know enough about your game to tell when you are playing within or without it. Too often, I have seen players complain about missing shots that they are approaching with technical inadequacy. It's very important to record all your experiences at that level if you aren't being watched by a higher level player or coach. You don't get a chance to reflect and refrain otherwise. You will be carrying all thr pressure of your experiences in the moment and any reframing will be based on suboptimal memory.

I honestly don know what’s wrong with me when I play tournaments. I swear my level drops to 400 usatt (Well i know at least some of the things, i point them out below but this was more of me venting lol) Played two events this weekemd, first one u1400, made it out of the group stage and lost right after. It was a tight match but overall decent performance. Secomd event was u1200 and I lost all my games.

three main issues:
* for u1400 I played really well second game and the guy was just hitting nets and edges and I lost. That effected me mentally in a negative way a decent amount and I lost next two games. I should not have been bothered by that at all.
* for under 1200 i lost my first match against a guy on a much lower lvl then me. Hones no idea what’s wrong happened but I was just getting more and more annoyed throughout that match and then it negatively effected rest of my matches. Again should not have been that annoyed about it and need to play one point at a time but it gets hard in situations like this (especially because I can carry my weight around 1600 lvl guys)
* in both events i noticed my knees cave in when I move around in an athetic stance. It looks wonky and is prolly leading to me not being able to move as quickly as ai want to. It id weird since my knees do cave in but thats when I squat over 230lbs, did not expect it in an athletic stance. one easy fix i am going to practice is have my toes point slightly out (i noticed all pro tall players do this) instead of feet being parallel and toes pointing straight. Another thing is work on my abductor muscles more which I’ll start regularly doing.

all in all very frustrating experience but I had some mean backhand loops that i could not have done a few months ago

Post some video. Too many people who want to get better as adults are fixated on everything other than hitting and returning quality balls. Sounds to me like you are falling into that trap. Look for solutions to problems that show up.on concrete points. Otherwise you will waste a lot of time stagnating.

 

[Lazer]

I honestly don know what’s wrong with me when I play tournaments. I swear my level drops to 400 usatt (Well i know at least some of the things, i point them out below but this was more of me venting lol) Played two events this weekemd, first one u1400, made it out of the group stage and lost right after. It was a tight match but overall decent performance. Secomd event was u1200 and I lost all my games.

three main issues:
* for u1400 I played really well second game and the guy was just hitting nets and edges and I lost. That effected me mentally in a negative way a decent amount and I lost next two games. I should not have been bothered by that at all.
* for under 1200 i lost my first match against a guy on a much lower lvl then me. Hones no idea what’s wrong happened but I was just getting more and more annoyed throughout that match and then it negatively effected rest of my matches. Again should not have been that annoyed about it and need to play one point at a time but it gets hard in situations like this (especially because I can carry my weight around 1600 lvl guys)
* in both events i noticed my knees cave in when I move around in an athetic stance. It looks wonky and is prolly leading to me not being able to move as quickly as ai want to. It id weird since my knees do cave in but thats when I squat over 230lbs, did not expect it in an athletic stance. one easy fix i am going to practice is have my toes point slightly out (i noticed all pro tall players do this) instead of feet being parallel and toes pointing straight. Another thing is work on my abductor muscles more which I’ll start regularly doing.

all in all very frustrating experience but I had some mean backhand loops that i could not have done a few months ago

1/2 of the game is in your head…
When my head is off I can loose to almost anybody. With the short sets it has become much much more of a mental game…

Cheers
L-zr

 

[Novarac23]

There is probably many factors contributing to your poor performance, and it's hard to properly judge simply like this.

I assume you're still relatively "new" to all of this, so expect it to get better with time and experience.
A good quote I heard once was:
"You can't Google experience."


Regardless of that, what helped me the most was properly warming up before the match and also cooling down, gaining the necessary confidence and getting into a reasonable mindset for the match.

Here is what I wrote earlier:


For the breathing part, I am already used to controlling it regularly, so it isn't such a big deal for me, but it might be for you.

Thank you for the feedback and agreed!

1/2 of the game is in your head…
When my head is off I can loose to almost anybody. With the short sets it has become much much more of a mental game…

Cheers
L-zr

100% agreed!

Love the "You can't Google experience". As a 1200 or lower player, sometimes even up to 2200, you don't know enough about your game to tell when you are playing within or without it. Too often, I have seen players complain about missing shots that they are approaching with technical inadequacy. It's very important to record all your experiences at that level if you aren't being watched by a higher level player or coach. You don't get a chance to reflect and refrain otherwise. You will be carrying all thr pressure of your experiences in the moment and any reframing will be based on suboptimal memory.

Post some video. Too many people who want to get better as adults are fixated on everything other than hitting and returning quality balls. Sounds to me like you are falling into that trap. Look for solutions to problems that show up.on concrete points. Otherwise you will waste a lot of time stagnating.

All good points, and I learn a lot from watching my own recordings. I've uploaded videos to youtube from Friday so here they are:
Match 1 (I won this one):

Match 2 (I won this one):

Match 3 ( I lost this one):

Match 4 (I lost this one, too bad the angle is from behind but I had some good rallies in here):

Sorry for no edits on the vids, but def played a lot worse then I usually do in all of these. One main trend I notice that my elbow is really close to my body on my FH loops, I'm pretty sure it should not be that close.

 

[NextLevel]

Thank you for the feedback and agreed!

100% agreed!

All good points, and I learn a lot from watching my own recordings. I've uploaded videos to youtube from Friday so here they are:
Match 1 (I won this one):

Match 2 (I won this one):

Match 3 ( I lost this one):

Match 4 (I lost this one, too bad the angle is from behind but I had some good rallies in here):

Sorry for no edits on the vids, but def played a lot worse then I usually do in all of these. One main trend I notice that my elbow is really close to my body on my FH loops, I'm pretty sure it should not be that close.

Do you have a video of you playing well, or your best match ever which shows how you think you should have played?

All of this is legit U1200 play so I am trying to understand what you expected to happen...

We can explain a lot of things with technical concepts, but the reality is this - how do you intend to win points and how do you move a point towards your strengths?

At the level you play at, what you should largely be looking for is ways to create opportunities to put the ball away or to make the opponent move... but let me take my ideas out of it, what are you trying to do in these matches? What is your preferred way to win points?

 

[Novarac23]

Do you have a video of you playing well, or your best match ever which shows how you think you should have played?

All of this is legit U1200 play so I am trying to understand what you expected to happen...

We can explain a lot of things with technical concepts, but the reality is this - how do you intend to win points and how do you move a point towards your strengths?

At the level you play at, what you should largely be looking for is ways to create opportunities to put the ball away or to make the opponent move... but let me take my ideas out of it, what are you trying to do in these matches? What is your preferred way to win points?

I unfortunately don't have a video of me playing really well but I've been able to not get blown up and even win a few games against ~1600 lvl players (I might start recording our local league to hopefully get more vids of me playing somewhat decent). During those matches I've played better then I did in the videos. Also during those matches the game is "flowing" much better, I'm consistently staying low and don't make a ton of unforced errors.

As far as how I like to win points is with 3rd ball attack from my BH or FH (although recently I'm gravitating more to my BH), I also don't mind getting into topspin rallies with folks but that would be my 2nd favorite way of winning.

 

[NextLevel]

I unfortunately don't have a video of me playing really well but I've been able to not get blown up and even win a few games against ~1600 lvl players (I might start recording our local league to hopefully get more vids of me playing somewhat decent). During those matches I've played better then I did in the videos. Also during those matches the game is "flowing" much better, I'm consistently staying low and don't make a ton of unforced errors.

As far as how I like to win points is with 3rd ball attack from my BH or FH (although recently I'm gravitating more to my BH), I also don't mind getting into topspin rallies with folks but that would be my 2nd favorite way of winning.

I was going to make some comments about your game that you look fairly decent in straight topspin rallies with some pace. But you don't always read the ball when the stroke lacks quality and this results in mistakes on openers because you aren't skilled at generating your own spin and control.

This is all standard stuff for your playing level if you occasionally hit with better players. But you have major gaps (like all players at your playing level) primarily in reading the game, that it would be best to realize that with the game you have, even if you were to get to 1400 or 1500, you would still be susceptible to lots of lower rated players if they were reasonably consistent because you don't have a good approach for adapting to spin, or you don't control and create spin well enough to be confident about the effects of your opponent's shots.

Three things to work on
1) putting away the loose balls - read and put away loose balls - learn to smash or drive loose balls to points on the table that cause problems for your opponent. Work on putting your body into the position to do this. The drive does not have to be powerful as much as it has to be well placed.
2) Spin all balls, even if the ball you generate is extremely slow - use spin to control the balls, focus on this to the point of forgetting about the importance of anything else, even if the ball is slower than you prefer.
3) Learn to adjust to spin. It is something that gets better the more you generate, but the problem you have is that you are mostly not able to tell whether the ball is backspin or the ball is empty.

Some of these things can be done through enhanced technique but you don't need great footwork or technique to get better at *any* of them. I will let other people beat up on your technique, but it is common to blame too much winning and losing on lack of perfect technique which is not the same thing as a lack of effective technique.

 

[NextLevel]

I unfortunately don't have a video of me playing really well but I've been able to not get blown up and even win a few games against ~1600 lvl players (I might start recording our local league to hopefully get more vids of me playing somewhat decent). During those matches I've played better then I did in the videos. Also during those matches the game is "flowing" much better, I'm consistently staying low and don't make a ton of unforced errors.

As far as how I like to win points is with 3rd ball attack from my BH or FH (although recently I'm gravitating more to my BH), I also don't mind getting into topspin rallies with folks but that would be my 2nd favorite way of winning.

Now for the technical part, some of which you have already alluded to:

1. Point your feet outwards, some people do it differently, but I have been pointing my feet outwards for almost a decade and the results have been largely positive.

2. Use whip mechanics to power your serves and shots so you can generate tons of spin and speed. This is for serving, but something like this is true for every stroke and if you even just apply the serving stuff, you will be a much better player even if your game isn't perfect:

3. Learn to move and block with stability and with the body, the active block is the basis of consistent table tennis. If you can move and block with stability, you can always attack when you have more time.

 

[Novarac23]

I was going to make some comments about your game that you look fairly decent in straight topspin rallies with some pace. But you don't always read the ball when the stroke lacks quality and this results in mistakes on openers because you aren't skilled at generating your own spin and control.

This is all standard stuff for your playing level if you occasionally hit with better players. But you have major gaps (like all players at your playing level) primarily in reading the game, that it would be best to realize that with the game you have, even if you were to get to 1400 or 1500, you would still be susceptible to lots of lower rated players if they were reasonably consistent because you don't have a good approach for adapting to spin, or you don't control and create spin well enough to be confident about the effects of your opponent's shots.

Three things to work on
1) putting away the loose balls - read and put away loose balls - learn to smash or drive loose balls to points on the table that cause problems for your opponent. Work on putting your body into the position to do this. The drive does not have to be powerful as much as it has to be well placed.
2) Spin all balls, even if the ball you generate is extremely slow - use spin to control the balls, focus on this to the point of forgetting about the importance of anything else, even if the ball is slower than you prefer.
3) Learn to adjust to spin. It is something that gets better the more you generate, but the problem you have is that you are mostly not able to tell whether the ball is backspin or the ball is empty.

Some of these things can be done through enhanced technique but you don't need great footwork or technique to get better at *any* of them. I will let other people beat up on your technique, but it is common to blame too much winning and losing on lack of perfect technique which is not the same thing as a lack of effective technique.

Thank you for the input, these are some great points/suggestions! One thing I am really bad at is simply focusing on watching the ball (posted about it before). If I do watch the ball, my brain registers the spin a lot better and my strokes do adjust. Of course its not always perfect but a lot better then when I don't focus on it (I was not focused on the ball on some of those unforced errors I made).

Will incorporate things you mentioned when I practice!

 

[Novarac23]

Now for the technical part, some of which you have already alluded to:

1. Point your feet outwards, some people do it differently, but I have been pointing my feet outwards for almost a decade and the results have been largely positive.

2. Use whip mechanics to power your serves and shots so you can generate tons of spin and speed. This is for serving, but something like this is true for every stroke and if you even just apply the serving stuff, you will be a much better player even if your game isn't perfect:

3. Learn to move and block with stability and with the body, the active block is the basis of consistent table tennis. If you can move and block with stability, you can always attack when you have more time.

Again great points! For the pointing feet outwards, I litreally just noticed that on Friday! I practiced doing that on Sunday while I was hitting with a few folks and it's already looking better but need to keep doing it so I make it a habit. Love the whip mechanics idea, will try that as well. And agreed for blocking!

 

[NextLevel]

Again great points! For the pointing feet outwards, I litreally just noticed that on Friday! I practiced doing that on Sunday while I was hitting with a few folks and it's already looking better but need to keep doing it so I make it a habit. Love the whip mechanics idea, will try that as well. And agreed for blocking!

Well the game is complicated and it requires a lot of patience and experimentation. The truth is that even if you solve problems in TT, they often remain problems at a higher level lol. But the one thing that is guaranteed, regardless of technique, is that a quality attack requires a response, no matter what technique is used to produce it. Quality placement puts pressure on the opponent, no matter how good the opponent is. And attacking first with quality usually puts you in command of the point. As an adult learner, you need to figure out what it takes to consistently hit a powerful ball when the ball sits. And over time, develop better and better responses to when an opponent plays a quality ball or better ways of keeping the opponent from playing a quality ball (which usually involves taking your first opportunity to play one). Yes it is true that movement and footwork and grip and all kinds of stuff make a difference but that's not the crux of the matter. All those things are just tools, spin is probably the biggest tool. But once you start hitting and placing quality balls more consistently, and you can take a sitting ball located at one point on your side and hit it seamless to two different points on the table, then you have a point ending weapon. It might take you more use of the hips and shoulders to get there and the biggest thing is always to be careful about injury. But focusing on things that don't win points leads to frustration in matches. That is my experience. The main reason I am trying to play out of a lower stance is because the kids I play with attack too hard and spinny for me to block and control their spin when I am upright.

 

[blahness]

Thank you for the feedback and agreed!

100% agreed!

All good points, and I learn a lot from watching my own recordings. I've uploaded videos to youtube from Friday so here they are:
Match 1 (I won this one):

Match 2 (I won this one):

Match 3 ( I lost this one):

Match 4 (I lost this one, too bad the angle is from behind but I had some good rallies in here):

Sorry for no edits on the vids, but def played a lot worse then I usually do in all of these. One main trend I notice that my elbow is really close to my body on my FH loops, I'm pretty sure it should not be that close.

Dude, take away your left arm after throwing the ball for your FH serve. Surprised that no one called you out for hiding the serve so blatantly...

 

[Novarac23]

Well the game is complicated and it requires a lot of patience and experimentation. The truth is that even if you solve problems in TT, they often remain problems at a higher level lol. But the one thing that is guaranteed, regardless of technique, is that a quality attack requires a response, no matter what technique is used to produce it. Quality placement puts pressure on the opponent, no matter how good the opponent is. And attacking first with quality usually puts you in command of the point. As an adult learner, you need to figure out what it takes to consistently hit a powerful ball when the ball sits. And over time, develop better and better responses to when an opponent plays a quality ball or better ways of keeping the opponent from playing a quality ball (which usually involves taking your first opportunity to play one). Yes it is true that movement and footwork and grip and all kinds of stuff make a difference but that's not the crux of the matter. All those things are just tools, spin is probably the biggest tool. But once you start hitting and placing quality balls more consistently, and you can take a sitting ball located at one point on your side and hit it seamless to two different points on the table, then you have a point ending weapon. It might take you more use of the hips and shoulders to get there and the biggest thing is always to be careful about injury. But focusing on things that don't win points leads to frustration in matches. That is my experience. The main reason I am trying to play out of a lower stance is because the kids I play with attack too hard and spinny for me to block and control their spin when I am upright.

Yeah all of those make sense! Thank you!

 

[Novarac23]

Dude, take away your left arm after throwing the ball for your FH serve. Surprised that no one called you out for hiding the serve so blatantly...

I did not even think about that until you pointed it out, will fix it next time 🙌

 

[AutomaticBackhand]

Something must have clicked for me during the last 3 or 4 training sessions.
Today I was able to confidently Counterloop balls in a match, where I didn't pay much attention to technique
The same shots that I'd have missed a week ago.

I couldn't record it, but I assume my stance and part of my technique improved.
Specifically, standing lower in rallies, rotating the hip more and upper body less.

Anyways, Thursday will be the last training session before our 3 week Christmas break.
In January, I plan on playing tournaments again.

 

[NextLevel]

Specifically, standing lower in rallies, rotating the hip more and upper body less.

This.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Had a Xuxin Grandpa moment yesterday. Yes, I played against a pipster; C-Pen Asian Ojisan with both side pips-out rubber. One side OX while the other side is with sponge. Yes, he is a twiddler as well. I was made to run around like a headless chicken. Yes! Pips should be banned!

The saving grace was I won one set off him. In this particular set, I think he wanted to top around a started lobbing high balls, inviting me to smash. And boy did I smash indeed. I won this set with my smashes against his lobs. This is my only saving grace....