I finally won match against my LP boss

[TensorBackhand]

As many of you know, I hate playing against long pips. Just the idea that the LP produces spin in the opposite direction that your mind is trained on infuriated me. But I really remembered @UpSideDownCarl 's words that training against LP is much better practice than almost any other training. However about 3 months ago, I befriended a high level LP player. This guy was around 2500-2600 USATT when he was in his prime. He is much older now, but still holds USATT rating of 2000-2100 and recently did well at the US Open. In our local league matches he often dominates the 2000 competition, and beats most of the top players in our city league. Because we started practicing together often, my mind and body started becoming accustomed to the unusual rhythm and spin of LP. In our training sessions, I could feel myself getting more and more in control. I didn't fear LP as much as I used to, and I actually kinda enjoy looping against LP. Once in a while I still forget what spin is coming back to me, but for the most part its becoming closer and closer to 2nd nature.

So today he asked me to play a match against him. I didn't even have a good paddle. It was my first time using a cheap Long 5 clone paddle with crap rubbers on (Double Fish Qiji and Loki Kirin 1 both unboosted). But somehow all our training sessions just translated into game execution. My main strategy was just to loop all his empty balls, and occasionally loop his underspin balls. I was able to win 3-1. Actually, the only game I lost I actually had game points at 10-8 and ended up losing that game 15-17. So for most of the match, I felt like I was in control. Actually that's how I was starting to feel during our training sessions even.

So I feel like I beat the LP boss in a video game. I'm actually somewhat surprised that I advanced this much in 3 months. I don't think I would win every match going forward, but I considering just how much I hated playing LP a short while ago, I really feel that I came a long way and against a legit good player.

If you are struggling against LP, I am hear to tell you that it actually is possible. I'm happy to answer questions if you need help getting over the hurdle.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

So the cheap equipment won.
Great
Case closed

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Conclusion?

Michael is now officially inducted into the Hall of Pips destroyer and can officially use the gif. below and above!

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

As many of you know, I hate playing against long pips. Just the idea that the LP produces spin in the opposite direction that your mind is trained on infuriated me. But I really remembered @UpSideDownCarl 's words that training against LP is much better practice than almost any other training. However about 3 months ago, I befriended a high level LP player. This guy was around 2500-2600 USATT when he was in his prime. He is much older now, but still holds USATT rating of 2000-2100 and recently did well at the US Open. In our local league matches he often dominates the 2000 competition, and beats most of the top players in our city league. Because we started practicing together often, my mind and body started becoming accustomed to the unusual rhythm and spin of LP. In our training sessions, I could feel myself getting more and more in control. I didn't fear LP as much as I used to, and I actually kinda enjoy looping against LP. Once in a while I still forget what spin is coming back to me, but for the most part its becoming closer and closer to 2nd nature.

So today he asked me to play a match against him. I didn't even have a good paddle. It was my first time using a cheap Long 5 clone paddle with crap rubbers on (Double Fish Qiji and Loki Kirin 1 both unboosted). But somehow all our training sessions just translated into game execution. My main strategy was just to loop all his empty balls, and occasionally loop his underspin balls. I was able to win 3-1. Actually, the only game I lost I actually had game points at 10-8 and ended up losing that game 15-17. So for most of the match, I felt like I was in control. Actually that's how I was starting to feel during our training sessions even.

So I feel like I beat the LP boss in a video game. I'm actually somewhat surprised that I advanced this much in 3 months. I don't think I would win every match going forward, but I considering just how much I hated playing LP a short while ago, I really feel that I came a long way and against a legit good player.

If you are struggling against LP, I am hear to tell you that it actually is possible. I'm happy to answer questions if you need help getting over the hurdle.

The biggest thing training consistently vs a decent LP player does is get you to pay attention and read the spin off the ball. And that translates to making your level increase against any type of opponent to some extent. It gets you to read the game better.

So, good job doing the work to get to that point.

 

[TensorBackhand]

The biggest thing training consistently vs a decent LP player does is get you to pay attention and read the spin off the ball. And that translates to making your level increase against any type of opponent to some extent. It gets you to read the game better.

So, good job doing the work to get to that point.

I was lucky that I bumped into a good LP player that was willing to play with me often.

I'm still not sure if I'm actually reading the spin on the ball exactly, but I pay really close attention to which side of the rubber he hits with (he twiddles a lot), and I also pay attention to how he strikes the ball (heavy cut, or dead push, etc)

 

[NextLevel]

The biggest thing training consistently vs a decent LP player does is get you to pay attention and read the spin off the ball. And that translates to making your level increase against any type of opponent to some extent. It gets you to read the game better.

So, good job doing the work to get to that point.

Not always reading the spin off the ball. But more often adjusting to the sequences that produced the spin on the ball and adjusting to the ball quality through practice.

This is huge step, but since not all pips have the same amount of reversal and not all players quite the same style, the next step would be to see whether the knowledge acquired translates to a pips (and player) he doesn't practice regularly against. I for example play particularly well against OX Grass D Tecs and similar pips like OX Saviga V. I play decently against others like Hellfire OX but it is much more of a struggle, especially if there is sponge in the mix. But ultimately people juat don't show up at the table with pips and cause me trouble, they have to play good offensive shots either by hitting with the pips, pivoting or twiddling or they will be sitting ducks.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I was lucky that I bumped into a good LP player that was willing to play with me often.

I'm still not sure if I'm actually reading the spin on the ball exactly, but I pay really close attention to which side of the rubber he hits with (he twiddles a lot), and I also pay attention to how he strikes the ball (heavy cut, or dead push, etc)

Well, paying attention to those kind of details is a a big start. At some point, if you keep training with him and you keep playing with the understanding that, if you also watch the ball, you will start being able to see the spin by the flight pattern of the ball.

Really heavy spin looks different from lighter spin. Empty balls have a different flight pattern that light spin (but with some spin). Watching someone who has really good serves while they practice serving can also help you.

Marc Croitoroo one day years ago spent a good chunk of time showing me a whole bunch of things about how to read the spin off the flight of the ball. There are obvious things like how, if it is decent backspin the arc on the ball will be flatter and decent topspin will have a rounder trajectory. One sidespin curves left another curves right and corkscrew flies straight like the way a football with a good spiral does. But when spin is really heavy you can just see it if you are actually watching the ball.

Part of the issue, where get thrown off and disoriented is, when we think the person did one thing to the ball so our brain expects to see THAT, and something different was done to the ball. So, if you are sure what just happened will be backspin but what is actually coming at you is topspin, if you are not really watching the ball closely, what you see, your brain will send you a confused picture rather than what is actually there.

If you keep watching all that stuff and also try to really watch the ball, you will start realizing that you can see the spin more than you realize.

 

[TensorBackhand]

After the match, I went straight to do another 300-400 of multiball loop attack, mostly backhand. My 3rd ball attack rhythm is starting to get much better too.

I did 100 balls of 3rd ball loops. 100 balls of receive loops. And 100 balls of looping junky balls (feeding from recreational pips paddle).

Yes, the last training technique is my own idea, to feed with a junk paddle.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Not always reading the spin off the ball. But more often adjusting to the sequences that produced the spin on the ball and adjusting to the ball quality through practice.

This is huge step, but since not all pips have the same amount of reversal and not all players quite the same style, the next step would be to see whether the knowledge acquired translates to a pips (and player) he doesn't practice regularly against. I for example play particularly well against OX Grass D Tecs and similar pips like OX Saviga V. I play decently against others like Hellfire OX but it is much more of a struggle, especially if there is sponge in the mix. But ultimately people juat don't show up at the table with pips and cause me trouble, they have to play good offensive shots either by hitting with the pips, pivoting or twiddling or they will be sitting ducks.

This guy uses Saviga 0.5mm. How does Saviga play? Is it known as a high spin LP or a high reversal LP?

I think I play better against defensive LP types right now, but play badly against the punching LP types (Deng Yaping?)

I played another 2400 LP defensive player last week. Obviously in theory I shouldn't stand a chance. I lost 0-3, but 2 of the games I lost went to deuce, and I even had game points. So I had a feeling that I was getting closer and closer to winning against LP players.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Not always reading the spin off the ball. But more often adjusting to the sequences that produced the spin on the ball and adjusting to the ball quality through practice.

This is huge step, but since not all pips have the same amount of reversal and not all players quite the same style, the next step would be to see whether the knowledge acquired translates to a pips (and player) he doesn't practice regularly against. I for example play particularly well against OX Grass D Tecs and similar pips like OX Saviga V. I play decently against others like Hellfire OX but it is much more of a struggle, especially if there is sponge in the mix. But ultimately people juat don't show up at the table with pips and cause me trouble, they have to play good offensive shots either by hitting with the pips, pivoting or twiddling or they will be sitting ducks.

Yeah. These are good points. Maybe not everyone will get to be able to see the spin from the ball. But, you can if you work on it. And different pips players do present different challenges. So, what you are talking about are good tests for progressing further.

Robert Chen, when he trained people to play vs pips, he would also try and get them to read the spin from watching the ball. Those kids he trained that got to 2200+, they got very good at handling different pips players as a result.

But no matter what, if you start doing better and getting more used to playing vs pips as TensorBH is talking about, there is more observation and brain processing going on than before he just didn't want to deal with playing vs pips players. It is good to break through that first big barrier however it happens.

 

[NextLevel]

This guy uses Saviga 0.5mm. How does Saviga play? Is it known as a high spin LP or a high reversal LP?

I think I play better against defensive LP types right now, but play badly against the punching LP types (Deng Yaping?)

I played another 2400 LP defensive player last week. Obviously in theory I shouldn't stand a chance. I lost 0-3, but 2 of the games I lost went to deuce, and I even had game points. So I had a feeling that I was getting closer and closer to winning against LP players.

Saviga has very good reversal but it can also be used for mild offense but not on the same level as good hitting pips. It is fairly similar in how I feel playing it like Grass D Tecs even with sponge.

It also means your overall level has probably gotten better. You should be able to overload q few more players purely on the basis of spin.

 

[Der_Echte]

I didn't fear LP as much as I used to, and I actually kinda enjoy looping against LP.

YES !!

 

[JJ Ng]

One thing I would add to the process of reading spin: the ball does not lie.

In other words, if you expect the ball to be heavy underspin serve, but you pop the ball up, then it is a no spin serve. The ball does not lie. So your opponent must have fooled you. Then you have to start paying attention as to why you are being fooled: are you reading the contact point correctly? If you cannot read the contact point or clearly you are reading his contact point wrong (fake follow-up movements, etc.), then can you look at the projectory of the ball? Or in many situations, if you keep on getting fooled by no spin serve, can you see the logo spinning or not?

 

[Yuomay]

I find that playing against long pips is an excellent benchmark for new equipment in relation to your own skill level. With all the rhythm changes and awkward placements.

For me it just sounds like you were playing with a paddle you could more easily control. Also probably you gave a lot less spin than normal, since your rubbers were not boosted.

 

[Tyce]

Finally people get talking about reading spin on the ball! I never really used the method of watching the moment of contact, or at the very least not exclusively. It just feels too simple, too much like setting myself up to be surprised.

Watching the ball has a distinct disadvantage to me though, and that is fast balls. Especially fast long serves, they just go too fast to see a proper trajectory and spin direction.
This is usually no problem against pips, except when they attack right off the bounce. Any defending stroke is theoretically readable.

I love practice vs pips, especially choppers

 

[TensorBackhand]

The 2100 LP chopper guy has been on a tear recently. He has been beating all the 2000 guys in our local league and his rating went up to 2115.

Today I played him again and we both played at a higher level than we previously did. I changed my style for him this time. Instead of pushing to him and attacking his deadball LP push, I did a lot more looping against his chop. It was actually a big change in speed and rhythm and forced him onto the defensive much more. It was a very physically draining and tough battle, but eventually I pulled out 3-2 win.

But the change in strategy was actually pretty big

 

[Der_Echte]

TB,

You should go to OCTTA and look for Joe Tran the legend. At around 70, he can still play near 2000 level, takes balls very early with his LP and can hit a lefty FH from ANYWHERE with quality and near 100% landing. A joy to play and a great kind person he is.