New Equipment -- Budding EJ

[ThePongCommenter]

This is really a matter of framing and judging using standards that do not promote adaptation. I had a coach once tell me to push topspin serves into the net and push backspin serves off the table. He believed doing this would encourage me to understand my ball control and strokes better. It might not work for everyone, but for me, it changed the way I approached and played and trained table tennis. I stopped being so focused on getting it right immediately and gave myself time to adapt to anything I faced anew. I stopped focusing on looping the ball on the table every time and played around with varying aspects of my topspins and learning how they affected the ball.


In the infamous words of Werner Schlager, you want the player to make as few adjustments as possible as instincts are hard to break. To have them adapt to one thing (rubbers that are not designed to spin the ball forward) and then adapt to another (rubbers designed to spin the ball forward) can affect their hitting, pushing and blocking instincts. So the sooner you can get them to what promotes the instincts you expect them to keep and optimize, the better.

I believe it was Schlager actually who advised to start with the rubber that you intend to use once you reach higher levels, i.e. don't start on junk like Sriver, but starting on a slower blade and that incrementing that as you improve.

 

[NextLevel]

I believe it was Schlager actually who advised to start with the rubber that you intend to use once you reach higher levels, i.e. don't start on junk like Sriver, but starting on a slower blade and that incrementing that as you improve.

To be fair, his original advice was given in the context of rubber thickness but he did extend his logic to rubbers like Rozena vs Tenergy etc when the question was posed to him later. The cynic in me says this was partly inspired by his sponsors, but regardless, given the role of adaptation, I find his logic sound. Of course, not everyone is able to find the right feeling to be confident using a fast blade, but that is not necessarily about playing level, it depends more on whether you have enough feeling to play with touch given the range of vibrations you can use to get feedback on your playing the ball.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

To be fair, his original advice was given in the context of rubber thickness but he did extend his logic to rubbers like Rozena vs Tenergy etc when the question was posed to him later. The cynic in me says this was partly inspired by his sponsors, but regardless, given the role of adaptation, I find his logic sound. Of course, not everyone is able to find the right feeling to be confident using a fast blade, but that is not necessarily about playing level, it depends more on whether you have enough feeling to play with touch given the range of vibrations you can use to get feedback on your playing the ball.

I believe it was in a Butterfly Japan promotional video but can't recall the exact one at the moment. He said something along the lines of always recommending his students to start with the actual rubber they will play when they get to a higher level. I'll see if I can dig it up.

 

[NextLevel]

I believe it was in a Butterfly Japan promotional video but can't recall the exact one at the moment. He said something along the lines of always recommending his students to start with the actual rubber they will play when they get to a higher level. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Yes, the second time he said it, it was the Butterfly promotional video. But he had expressed a similar idea in his book that compiled his interviews over the years when speaking about rubber thickness for young players. He encouraged people to start with 2.0mm sponge at the minimum to Max when some people would argue that you needed to start with thinner rubbers for more control and graduate to thicker rubbers...

So the claims about starting with Rozena or similar rubbers was just a new statement of his philosophy to get the learners as quickly as possible to where they were going to stay without forcing them to go through major changes. He believed that whatever you start with should be very suitable for the style you ultimately want to play. Starting out with old traditional rubbers that don't loop as well as modern rubbers is not the way to go. Obviously, the argument is not 100% undebatable, but some people would lead you to believe you were abusing your students if you started them out on faster equipment than was originally advocated in ancient times.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Obviously, the argument is not 100% undebatable, but some people would lead you to believe you were abusing your students if you started them out on faster equipment than was originally advocated in ancient times.

Oh I see it almost every time I read the forums and just have to laugh. Old wisdom seems to die hard, though I also keep in mind that when there is someone who views the difference between say a 5 ply wood and an inner carbon blade as life or death, all other things being equal, there is a pretty high chance that that person is either so unskilled or so fundamentally off that that's what drives such a stark difference in their ability to put balls on the table. The only problem is that oftentimes said people don't consider that they should maybe sit out of the coaching and advice threads lol.

 

[NextLevel]

Oh I see it almost every time I read the forums and just have to laugh. Old wisdom seems to die hard, though I also keep in mind that when there is someone who views the difference between say a 5 ply wood and an inner carbon blade as life or death, all other things being equal, there is a pretty high chance that that person is either so unskilled or so fundamentally off that that's what drives such a stark difference in their ability to put balls on the table. The only problem is that oftentimes said people don't consider that they should maybe sit out of the coaching and advice threads lol.

I could understand it to a good degree in the cell ball days when the ball was relatively easy to get moving and might have been harder to feel with carbon. But with the plastic ball sometimes I feel like I am playing tennis...

 

[JJ Ng]

I think half of the people responding here have never played with either Sriver or Mark V before, and they are talking like they are experts.

@Gozo Aruna I am not referring to you. You actually tried Flextra and stuck with it for a while. The last time I touched Flextra was like on a pre-made Butterfly paddle from 1995 or 1996. Sriver and Mark V are a lot more responsive than Flextra.

I believe that some players' strokes do work better with certain blade and rubber combination. You won't know until you try. I think the OP is fine to start with Sriver on Korbel. He should play with it for a while. If he likes it, done. If he does not like it, he can come back on the forum to seek advice.

Many people offer reviews such as "I have Rozena and G1 on my main blade, Viscaria. And my back-up blade is Yinhe Pro 01 with Tenergy 05 fx and Razka 7 and here is my opinion about Rozena v.s G1 v.s. Tenergy 05Fx v.s. Rakza 7...." I am like, what?!?! That like comparing oranges to apples. Quite frankly, if someone on the forum is currently in possession of a Korbel with Rozena 2.0mm on one side and Sriver 2.0mm on the other side, then I will take his opinion more seriously.

We are not doing him a favor by ramming down suggestions without having seen him play. I think it is better for him to get the set up and play with it for a couple weeks. And if he has more questions, he should feel free to ask.

The OP is 42 year old and has trouble spending a lot of time at the table. He does not have access to good coaching. The choice should be Sriver. If he is 7 year old, trained by Schlager himself, and is committed to three hours of training each time, three times a week, sunshine or rain, then he of course can start with Viscaria with T05 on both sides.

One thing that people have glossed over (and I am reading between the lines here) is that they feel Sriver is "not good value" for "how old it is." For $28-$30 a sheet, yes, I can find better value somewhere else (like Xiom Vega series). That I agree with. However for OP, he is not training with a coach 9-12 hours a week. For all we know, he will continue to play recreationally for fun and want to enjoy the sport for the next few years. Sriver and Mark V last for a long long time. So the cost is really not an issue. It is spread out a long period of time if his current situation persists. If he decides to get private coaching and training 9-12 hours a week, yes, he might outgrow Sriver in about 6 months' time. But that's neither here nor there.

Another thing I want to emphasize is, yes, be careful about spending too much time with robots. I have not seen a single beginner advances by using a robot. The balls are too predictable. It gives you a false sense of confidence in your timing and ability to read spin. The part that makes table tennis so difficult is that every ball comes at you at different speed, different timing (for example, someone blocking your topspin with inverted v.s. long pips), and different spin. Robots cannot give you that. And many people get into bad habits with robots that are difficult to fix later.

 

[Nakira]

Hi,

I'm also an "old" beginner, and I live in the countryside -no much club choice around-. I can go to the club twice a week, but I struggle finding a training partner -they are too good players, you know-, and in addition they don't really care about exercises. So it's complicated to improve.

But I'm improving:

- 1 hour of personal training with a coach, every or every two weeks
- watch and re-watch videos about training
- ElevenVR on meta quest: 30-40 min 3 or 4 times a week:
It's an excellent simulation tool, and offers many fun exercises. The AI is better than the robot, because the ball does not go at the same place all the time. And you can do matches against real players at any time: even at low level, you can practice different playing styles. You may even practice the 'mental' part.
The only important thing, is to focus on your skills, position, drills, and not winning match. Just play, as you would in real life. And keep playing in real, as much as you can, to keep the ball feeling.

My 2 cents: Equipment does not matter, as long as it is for beginner (slow inverted rubber). Rozena or Shriver... you should not care.

 

[NextLevel]

I think half of the people responding here have never played with either Sriver or Mark V before, and they are talking like they are experts.

@Gozo Aruna I am not referring to you. You actually tried Flextra and stuck with it for a while. The last time I touched Flextra was like on a pre-made Butterfly paddle from 1995 or 1996. Sriver and Mark V are a lot more responsive than Flextra.

I believe that some players' strokes do work better with certain blade and rubber combination. You won't know until you try. I think the OP is fine to start with Sriver on Korbel. He should play with it for a while. If he likes it, done. If he does not like it, he can come back on the forum to seek advice.

Many people offer reviews such as "I have Rozena and G1 on my main blade, Viscaria. And my back-up blade is Yinhe Pro 01 with Tenergy 05 fx and Razka 7 and here is my opinion about Rozena v.s G1 v.s. Tenergy 05Fx v.s. Rakza 7...." I am like, what?!?! That like comparing oranges to apples. Quite frankly, if someone on the forum is currently in possession of a Korbel with Rozena 2.0mm on one side and Sriver 2.0mm on the other side, then I will take his opinion more seriously.

We are not doing him a favor by ramming down suggestions without having seen him play. I think it is better for him to get the set up and play with it for a couple weeks. And if he has more questions, he should feel free to ask.

The OP is 42 year old and has trouble spending a lot of time at the table. He does not have access to good coaching. The choice should be Sriver. If he is 7 year old, trained by Schlager himself, and is committed to three hours of training each time, three times a week, sunshine or rain, then he of course can start with Viscaria with T05 on both sides.

One thing that people have glossed over (and I am reading between the lines here) is that they feel Sriver is "not good value" for "how old it is." For $28-$30 a sheet, yes, I can find better value somewhere else (like Xiom Vega series). That I agree with. However for OP, he is not training with a coach 9-12 hours a week. For all we know, he will continue to play recreationally for fun and want to enjoy the sport for the next few years. Sriver and Mark V last for a long long time. So the cost is really not an issue. It is spread out a long period of time if his current situation persists. If he decides to get private coaching and training 9-12 hours a week, yes, he might outgrow Sriver in about 6 months' time. But that's neither here nor there.

Another thing I want to emphasize is, yes, be careful about spending too much time with robots. I have not seen a single beginner advances by using a robot. The balls are too predictable. It gives you a false sense of confidence in your timing and ability to read spin. The part that makes table tennis so difficult is that every ball comes at you at different speed, different timing (for example, someone blocking your topspin with inverted v.s. long pips), and different spin. Robots cannot give you that. And many people get into bad habits with robots that are difficult to fix later.

Maybe, but i am.not one of them and I know people who use Sriver and Mark V. None of them are power looper. None of them focus on playing topspin loops repeatedly. When you play topspins loops with unglued Mar V or Sriver, you need to loop upwards to add topspin. Strokes that combine spin and speed by looping forward over the ball are nor what you will learn. And then you will need to retrain the shot a bit when you switch to a modern rubber. Not impossible (after all, people do adapt to hardbat) but again, instincts are hard to break. I am still dealing with trauma from when aggressive juniors with offensive instincts kill my serves off the bounce. They learned the right instincts early for the modern ball.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

I think half of the people responding here have never played with either Sriver or Mark V before, and they are talking like they are experts.

Bold assumption that half the people here have not tried Sriver or Mark V, the two most classic rubbers in the table tennis world. Does that prediction also apply to half the people that are recommending it? Certainly there are people talking like experts though...

We are not doing him a favor by ramming down suggestions without having seen him play. I think it is better for him to get the set up and play with it for a couple weeks. And if he has more questions, he should feel free to ask.

The OP is 42 year old and has trouble spending a lot of time at the table. He does not have access to good coaching. The choice should be Sriver.

The OP is 42 year old and has trouble spending a lot of time at the table. He does not have access to good coaching. The choice should be Sriver. If he is 7 year old, trained by Schlager himself, and is committed to three hours of training each time, three times a week, sunshine or rain, then he of course can start with Viscaria with T05 on both sides.

One thing that people have glossed over (and I am reading between the lines here) is that they feel Sriver is "not good value" for "how old it is." For $28-$30 a sheet, yes, I can find better value somewhere else (like Xiom Vega series). That I agree with. However for OP, he is not training with a coach 9-12 hours a week. For all we know, he will continue to play recreationally for fun and want to enjoy the sport for the next few years. Sriver and Mark V last for a long long time. So the cost is really not an issue. It is spread out a long period of time if his current situation persists. If he decides to get private coaching and training 9-12 hours a week, yes, he might outgrow Sriver in about 6 months' time. But that's neither here nor there.

I don't think anyone said anything about a Viscaria with T05? Have you used Rozena and are you familiar with just how much more watered down than T05 it is?

There is definitely an argument that could be made that Rozena is closer to Sriver than it is to Tenergy 05 but that argument is probably likely to be made by players who are advanced and make proper contact with the ball with power so perspective is everything I guess.

 

[Lazer]

Maybe, but i am.not one of them and I know people who use Sriver and Mark V. None of them are power looper. None of them focus on playing topspin loops repeatedly. When you play topspins loops with unglued Mar V or Sriver, you need to loop upwards to add topspin. Strokes that combine spin and speed by looping forward over the ball are nor what you will learn. And then you will need to retrain the shot a bit when you switch to a modern rubber. Not impossible (after all, people do adapt to hardbat) but again, instincts are hard to break. I am still dealing with trauma from when aggressive juniors with offensive instincts kill my serves off the bounce. They learned the right instincts early for the modern ball.

There is always a difference in angle when striking the ball and you will need to adapt. Besides there is not much difference in that sense between Mark V and Rakza 7. Mark V is slower but it has maybe the best topsheet in Yasaka lineup. It doesn’t get the kick from from the sponge but many here don’t like this anyway… So I do not agree with you on this…

And as I said before, I can get more out of Mark V than Rozena….

Cheers
L-zr

 

[ThePongCommenter]

There is always a difference in angle when striking the ball and you will need to adapt. Besides there is not much difference in that sense between Mark V and Rakza 7. Mark V is slower but it has maybe the best topsheet in Yasaka lineup. It doesn’t get the kick from from the sponge but many here don’t like this anyway… So I do not agree with you on this…

And as I said before, I can get more out of Mark V than Rozena….

Cheers
L-zr

It is not the racket angle but the stroke direction and how you approach that stroke direction dictates everything you do to the ball

 

[Lazer]

It is not the racket angle but the stroke direction and how you approach that stroke direction dictates everything you do to the ball

Racket angle and stoke direction is connected…

Cheers
L-zr

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Racket angle and stoke direction is connected…

Cheers
L-zr

Actually, not nearly as much with the plastic ball. But that isn't the main point here. If you are forced to swing upwards you have very limited options to put the ball on the table with quality. Swinging forwards enables a much wider range of racket angles and contact types that allow you to put the ball on the table with quality.

 

[Lazer]

Actually, not nearly as much with the plastic ball. But that isn't the main point here. If you are forced to swing upwards you have very limited options to put the ball on the table with quality. Swinging forwards enables a much wider range of racket angles and contact types that allow you to put the ball on the table with quality.

There is not much difference in the swing compared to other rubbers. It’s a little bit slower so you either need to open the angle a little bit or strike a little bit more upwards, but the harder you strike the lesser the difference…

Or use a faster blade..

Cheers
L-zr

 

[NextLevel]

There is always a difference in angle when striking the ball and you will need to adapt. Besides there is not much difference in that sense between Mark V and Rakza 7. Mark V is slower but it has maybe the best topsheet in Yasaka lineup. It doesn’t get the kick from from the sponge but many here don’t like this anyway… So I do not agree with you on this…

And as I said before, I can get more out of Mark V than Rozena….

Cheers
L-zr

I haven't played with either in a while but the feeling of Rozena was also very different and was along the lines of how one would play with Tenergy. Mark V ,I used to like a lot as I played as a blocker and hitter with slower blades for a bit but my game with it was not power looping. The people I know who use Mark V play well but none of them are power loopers. Without knowing how you play, knowing you prefer one or the other is a bit meaningless. That you don't like the kick from the sponge means you don't like modern rubbers. That is okay but not how anyone who wants to become a modern player should be developed in my not so humble opinion. Even Hurricane needs some boosting. But it is okay. The main point here is that we are all disagreeing with information.

 

[NextLevel]

There is not much difference in the swing compared to other rubbers. It’s a little bit slower so you either need to open the angle a little bit or strike a little bit more upwards, but the harder you strike the lesser the difference…

Or use a faster blade..

Cheers
L-zr

Nah, this is not true, the issue here is a property of the rubber. But again, if you want to see how I play, I have posted lots of videos. I cannot play that way with Mark V. I have no doubt about it. I can come closer with Rozena. It isn't entirely a speed thing. It is a matter of spin and power being a continuous motion and not always trying to add spin.

 

[TableTennisBD]

Hi,

I'm also an "old" beginner, and I live in the countryside -no much club choice around-. I can go to the club twice a week, but I struggle finding a training partner -they are too good players, you know-, and in addition they don't really care about exercises. So it's complicated to improve.

But I'm improving:

- 1 hour of personal training with a coach, every or every two weeks
- watch and re-watch videos about training
- ElevenVR on meta quest: 30-40 min 3 or 4 times a week:
It's an excellent simulation tool, and offers many fun exercises. The AI is better than the robot, because the ball does not go at the same place all the time. And you can do matches against real players at any time: even at low level, you can practice different playing styles. You may even practice the 'mental' part.
The only important thing, is to focus on your skills, position, drills, and not winning match. Just play, as you would in real life. And keep playing in real, as much as you can, to keep the ball feeling.

My 2 cents: Equipment does not matter, as long as it is for beginner (slow inverted rubber). Rozena or Shriver... you should not care.

Hi Nakira,

Thank you for spending time on my quest. I really appreciate it. I am very intrigued by the idea of ElevenVR since it may allow me to introduce my son to Table Tennis also help me develop. Could you please tell me what hardware/ equipment and software I need to get started with elevenVR. I appreciate it in advance

 

[Lazer]

Nah, this is not true, the issue here is a property of the rubber. But again, if you want to see how I play, I have posted lots of videos. I cannot play that way with Mark V. I have no doubt about it. I can come closer with Rozena. It isn't entirely a speed thing. It is a matter of spin and power being a continuous motion and not always trying to add spin.

There is reason for this is a lower ceiling. Yes you can do power loops but with a little less power. I avoid playing away from the table because with H3 my shoulder can’t handle the power it requires from distance.

Cheers
L-ze

 

[NextLevel]

So it goes back to how someone intends to play. The point here is that Rozena has better characteristics than Mark V for someone who wants to play modern table tennis. Since you have more limits playing modern table tennis, your position is understandable. But let's not try to paint it as some neutral, universal observation which your continuous argumentation sometimes sounds like it is trying to do.

There is reason for this is a lower ceiling. Yes you can do power loops but with a little less power. I avoid playing away from the table because with H3 my shoulder can’t handle the power it requires from distance.

Cheers
L-ze