WTT Singapore Smash 2025 (30 Jan ~ 9 Feb 2025)

[pongfugrasshopper]

Lee should replace Shin who is literally useless now that doubles partner Jeon is going to retire soon (?). In fact she is a even better player....

I disagree. Shin Yubin is still S. Korea's best player. It's just that her losses get amplified because she's their star player.

 

[5545]

I disagree. Shin Yubin is still S. Korea's best player. It's just that her losses get amplified because she's their star player.

Nobody is amplifying her loss?? But you are right, I am pointing it out critically (rightfully) because of her high ranking. She is supposed to be much better. It would actually be sugarcoating to not point it out.

Best Korea Player?
As of now, unfortunately you can argue that. Which is, honestly quite disappointing as it shows you just how much worse SK is compared to Japan. Hayata can injure her leg as well and she still would not be loosing like SYB. I really think Lee is a better player (can displace her) but we will need to see that, hopefully starting this tournament. I have followed Lee for a while and her performance hasn't been incredible, (losing to Takahashi at SCT Rio De Janeiro, Olympics, etc. ), but it's overall not much worse than SYB. Thankfully I don't have to "amplify" her loss because she is kind of underanked

But since you said "still", I assume you think she was the best player all this while.
I will just say, before the Paris Olympic, Jeon had far better results than her at literally almost all tournaments. Including the important ones like WTTTC. So she was definitely not the best player. Her losses actually gets sugarcoated by most (contrary to amplified) because she has a likeable personality and plays a lot (fatigue) and they choose to focus on that more.

Here's the thing: During the first half of 2024 alone, Jeon managed to beat most foreigners. Shin, OTOH lost to Mittilham, Takahashi, Diaz, Mukeherjee, (probably missed more) like there's no tomorrow. I don't think Lee would have played that bad. It is downright ridiculous for post-WR #7 not a long time ago and someone consistently in the Top 10 to be losing like that.

The most important thing out of all this is: Lee's past records isn't even that bad compared to Shin. I know Lee has lost quite a few matches but she also has great wins here and there.

Anyways let's see how Shin does in this tournament. Don't lose to Diaconu or someone. Please.....

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

Nobody is amplifying her loss?? But you are right, I am pointing it out critically (rightfully) because of her high ranking. She is supposed to be much better. It would actually be sugarcoating to not point it out.

Best Korea Player?
As of now, unfortunately you can argue that. Which is, honestly quite disappointing as it shows you just how much worse SK is compared to Japan. Hayata can injure her leg as well and she still would not be loosing like SYB. I really think Lee is a better player (can displace her) but we will need to see that, hopefully starting this tournament. I have followed Lee for a while and her performance hasn't been incredible, (losing to Takahashi at SCT Rio De Janeiro, Olympics, etc. ), but it's overall not much worse than SYB. Thankfully I don't have to "amplify" her loss because she is kind of underanked

But since you said "still", I assume you think she was the best player all this while.
I will just say, before the Paris Olympic, Jeon had far better results than her at literally almost all tournaments. Including the important ones like WTTTC. So she was definitely not the best player. Her losses actually gets sugarcoated by most (contrary to amplified) because she has a likeable personality and plays a lot (fatigue) and they choose to focus on that more.

Here's the thing: During the first half of 2024 alone, Jeon managed to beat most foreigners. Shin, OTOH lost to Mittilham, Takahashi, Diaz, Mukeherjee, (probably missed more) like there's no tomorrow. I don't think Lee would have played that bad. It is downright ridiculous for post-WR #7 not a long time ago and someone consistently in the Top 10 to be losing like that.

The most important thing out of all this is: Lee's past records isn't even that bad compared to Shin. I know Lee has lost quite a few matches but she also has great wins here and there.

Anyways let's see how Shin does in this tournament. Don't lose to Diaconu or someone. Please.....

SYB has also had the burden of being S. Korea's top doubles pairing for WD and XD. And despite that, her singles ranking is top 10. You don't get to be top 10 without consistently getting into the later rounds of tournaments. I do think Lee Eunhye is a very good player (as evidenced by beating CIC), but compare the two players' performance especially at higher value tournaments (>= Star Contender) and the contrast is clear. It's a new year and things can change, but for me anyways, SYB is S. Korea's top woman until one of her compatriots decisively proves to be better.

 

[5545]

SYB has also had the burden of being S. Korea's top doubles pairing for WD and XD. And despite that, her singles ranking is top 10. You don't get to be top 10 without consistently getting into the later rounds of tournaments. I do think Lee Eunhye is a very good player (as evidenced by beating CIC), but compare the two players' performance especially at higher value tournaments (>= Star Contender) and the contrast is clear. It's a new year and things can change, but for me anyways, SYB is S. Korea's top woman until one of her compatriots decisively proves to be better.

Sure, she is currently the best player. But you cannot tell me she's playing/was playing like a Top 10 material. I will be really surprised if you can explain to me how she deserves to be a Top 10.

Korea is really bad now that Jeon has declined, aren't they. Not a single consistent player. Compare that to Japan with Hayata and Harimoto who literally does not loose to non-Chinese. Didn't some people say SK was supposed to catch up to Japan? What a joke by Ryu Seung-min. Just wait for Teams next year when they have no one to carry.

I would be a lot less critical of Shin if she started acting like Hayata who actually plays a lot too and stays true to her ranking, or if she was Hirano who is inconsistent but at least stays out of the top ten and has quite a few good wins here and there (especially in WT, which Shin has contributed very little so far).

 

[NextLevel]

That's why some people on my ignore list. Literally arguing that a lady who got 4th place at the Olympics is not a top 10 player. Who is a top 10 player then?

 

[driversbeat]

Nobody is amplifying her loss?? But you are right, I am pointing it out critically (rightfully) because of her high ranking. She is supposed to be much better. It would actually be sugarcoating to not point it out.

Best Korea Player?
As of now, unfortunately you can argue that. Which is, honestly quite disappointing as it shows you just how much worse SK is compared to Japan. Hayata can injure her leg as well and she still would not be loosing like SYB. I really think Lee is a better player (can displace her) but we will need to see that, hopefully starting this tournament. I have followed Lee for a while and her performance hasn't been incredible, (losing to Takahashi at SCT Rio De Janeiro, Olympics, etc. ), but it's overall not much worse than SYB. Thankfully I don't have to "amplify" her loss because she is kind of underanked

But since you said "still", I assume you think she was the best player all this while.
I will just say, before the Paris Olympic, Jeon had far better results than her at literally almost all tournaments. Including the important ones like WTTTC. So she was definitely not the best player. Her losses actually gets sugarcoated by most (contrary to amplified) because she has a likeable personality and plays a lot (fatigue) and they choose to focus on that more.

Here's the thing: During the first half of 2024 alone, Jeon managed to beat most foreigners. Shin, OTOH lost to Mittilham, Takahashi, Diaz, Mukeherjee, (probably missed more) like there's no tomorrow. I don't think Lee would have played that bad. It is downright ridiculous for post-WR #7 not a long time ago and someone consistently in the Top 10 to be losing like that.

The most important thing out of all this is: Lee's past records isn't even that bad compared to Shin. I know Lee has lost quite a few matches but she also has great wins here and there.

Anyways let's see how Shin does in this tournament. Don't lose to Diaconu or someone. Please.....

Shin Yubin and SYS are probably tied for number of Olympic matches since they entered and reached the medal rounds for all three events. Ito is the only other player who has ever achieved that. Even Hayata Tomozaku, and Mitzutani didn't manage to do the same.

Plus reaching her seeding position while beating Hirano along the way while JJH fumbled when it counted the most. She may have lost a lot to lower ranked players but it's easy to forget that this is commonplace in table tennis unless you're one of the main CNT women. JJH also credited their Olympic team bronze to SYB playing well enough to keep their seeding high - something you can only do by going deep enough in tournaments, not by simply playing more events.

 

[5545]

That's why some people on my ignore list. Literally arguing that a lady who got 4th place at the Olympics is not a top 10 player. Who is a top 10 player then?

Please, that is literally the only tournament she even played decently. Out of what, 10 other tournaments where she lost to Mittilham, Mukeherjee, Takahashi, and probably a lot more I'm missing. Do you see other Top ten loosing like that? What's worse, when was the last time she beat someone higher ranked than her?

 

[5545]

Shin Yubin and SYS are probably tied for number of Olympic matches since they entered and reached the medal rounds for all three events. Ito is the only other player who has ever achieved that. Even Hayata Tomozaku, and Mitzutani didn't manage to do the same.

Plus reaching her seeding position while beating Hirano along the way while JJH fumbled when it counted the most. She may have lost a lot to lower ranked players but it's easy to forget that this is commonplace in table tennis unless you're one of the main CNT women. JJH also credited their Olympic team bronze to SYB playing well enough to keep their seeding high - something you can only do by going deep enough in tournaments, not by simply playing more events.

Commonplace for her, not for Miwa or Hina.

Odo also haven't been playing up there for so long and in this little time she lost to Batra and Szocs but at least managed to win a huge WTT event. SYB meanwhile has played so much while barely achieving one good result (OG). Not impressive, to say the least.

Would anyone here tell me any other tournament she actually played well in, except for the Olympics? I am curious to know if it actually exist

 

[5545]

Please, that is literally the only tournament she even played decently. Out of what, 10 other tournaments where she lost to Mittilham, Mukeherjee, Takahashi, and probably a lot more I'm missing. Do you see other Top ten loosing like that? What's worse, when was the last time she beat someone higher ranked than her?

CIC can replace her for Top 10. SXY is also a much better player.

 

[zeio]

Shin Yubin and SYS are probably tied for number of Olympic matches since they entered and reached the medal rounds for all three events. Ito is the only other player who has ever achieved that. Even Hayata Tomozaku, and Mitzutani didn't manage to do the same.

Plus reaching her seeding position while beating Hirano along the way while JJH fumbled when it counted the most. She may have lost a lot to lower ranked players but it's easy to forget that this is commonplace in table tennis unless you're one of the main CNT women. JJH also credited their Olympic team bronze to SYB playing well enough to keep their seeding high - something you can only do by going deep enough in tournaments, not by simply playing more events.

You can't be seriously comparing the men with the women here. The men's competition has always been more contested. It came down to the draw as well, and knowing you're the higher seed coming into the tournament (SYB) is psychologically different from getting a favorable draw at the venue right before the tournament start (Hirano), if you have entered a competition before. Guess how LJH/SYB would've fared against Ri Jong Sik/Kim Kum Yong in the first round?

 

[NextLevel]

You can't be seriously comparing the men with the women here. The men's competition has always been more contested. It came down to the draw as well, and knowing you're the higher seed coming into the tournament (SYB) is psychologically different from getting a favorable draw at the venue right before the tournament start (Hirano), if you have entered a competition before. Guess how LJH/SYB would've fared against Ri Jong Sik/Kim Kum Yong in the first round?

If it was a debate over top 5, I would agree. But in a debate over top 10, there is too much margin to make such nuances a big deal.

 

[zeio]

The fact remains that SYB doesn't belong to top 10 given her overall performance in 2024, especially WTTC 2024. Just see what their coaches said. She is fortunate that it worked out for her in the end because she didn't run into Kim Kum Yong or Pyon Song Gyong.

SYB at Paris 2024 is just like at LYJ at Tokyo 2020 where folks overlooked everything else.

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

Sure, she is currently the best player. But you cannot tell me she's playing/was playing like a Top 10 material. I will be really surprised if you can explain to me how she deserves to be a Top 10.

Ranking is what it is. She placed high enough in enough tournaments to get there. Simple as that. Now, it's difficult to *stay* in the top 10 with players like QTY and Kuai Man (among others) hot on her heels. But even if she falls out into the teens, she's still S. Korea's best player unless proven otherwise.

Korea is really bad now that Jeon has declined, aren't they. Not a single consistent player. Compare that to Japan with Hayata and Harimoto who literally does not loose to non-Chinese. Didn't some people say SK was supposed to catch up to Japan? What a joke by Ryu Seung-min. Just wait for Teams next year when they have no one to carry.

You won't get any argument from me that Hayata and Miwa being better. But it's not accurate to say Harimoto doesn't literally lose to non-Chinese unless Annett Kaufmann, Orawan Paranang, and Asuka Sasao are secretly Chinese . Perhaps RSM was trying to motivate his players, or perhaps he was just setting lofty goals. I don't have a problem with that.

I would be a lot less critical of Shin if she started acting like Hayata who actually plays a lot too and stays true to her ranking, or if she was Hirano who is inconsistent but at least stays out of the top ten and has quite a few good wins here and there (especially in WT, which Shin has contributed very little so far).

She's not as consistent as Hayata. That's true. But outside of China, Hina, and Miwa, who is super consistent? As for staying out of the top 10, what good would that do?

 

[turbozed]

If it was a debate over top 5, I would agree. But in a debate over top 10, there is too much margin to make such nuances a big deal.

This is pretty common in almost all individual sports. The further you get past top 3-5, the more murky it gets where it becomes a fool's errand to argue over one or two spots difference. Those on the bottom end of top 10 have either shown clear deficiencies compared to those higher ranked. Or they are new enough in the rankings where they haven't yet proven themselves yet.

Many times people arguing about rankings are just disagreeing on how rankings should work in the first place. A lot of the time that comes down to prior accomplishments vs future potential based on apparent abiliity. You get rid of that baseline ambiguity in how ranking should be measured, a lot of the heat (and maybe some of the fun) in these discussions goes away pretty quickly.

 

[5545]

You won't get any argument from me that Hayata and Miwa being better. But it's not accurate to say Harimoto doesn't literally lose to non-Chinese unless Annett Kaufmann, Orawan Paranang, and Asuka Sasao are secretly Chinese . Perhaps RSM was trying to motivate his players, or perhaps he was just setting lofty goals. I don't have a problem with that.

Alright, Miwa does not have a 100% rate against non-Chinese. Still better than Shin but I think you get that point anyways so I'll stop pressing on that.

She's not as consistent as Hayata. That's true. But outside of China, Hina, and Miwa, who is super consistent? As for staying out of the top 10, what good would that do?

She's not just "inconsistent".
Inconsistent is Hirano, who can lose to Liu Yangzi on a bad day and then also blank WYD in 3 straight games on another. It's unfortunate but SYB hasn't played really good matches. She's either playing to a barely acceptable level or just bad.

It wouldn't literally "do any good", but WTT ranking would be a more accurate representation of the present. And my argument was more of saying "SK is declining to the point where someone like Shin is the top of the country", rather than to say how her ranking should drop (although I think it should).

 

[NextLevel]

The fact remains that SYB doesn't belong to top 10 given her overall performance in 2024, especially WTTC 2024. Just see what their coaches said. She is fortunate that it worked out for her in the end because she didn't run into Kim Kum Yong or Pyon Song Gyong.

SYB at Paris 2024 is just like at LYJ at Tokyo 2020 where folks overlooked everything else.

Yeah, she was lucky to run into Miu Hirano. Great kind of luck, anyone will tell you...

 

[NextLevel]

This is pretty common in almost all individual sports. The further you get past top 3-5, the more murky it gets where it becomes a fool's errand to argue over one or two spots difference. Those on the bottom end of top 10 have either shown clear deficiencies compared to those higher ranked. Or they are new enough in the rankings where they haven't yet proven themselves yet.

Many times people arguing about rankings are just disagreeing on how rankings should work in the first place. A lot of the time that comes down to prior accomplishments vs future potential based on apparent abiliity. You get rid of that baseline ambiguity in how ranking should be measured, a lot of the heat (and maybe some of the fun) in these discussions goes away pretty quickly.

Well, Jeon Jihee and Shin Yubin play today - so they can settle it head to head, though I suspect the result won't change anyone's mind lol...

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

...
And my argument was more of saying "SK is declining to the point where someone like Shin is the top of the country", rather than to say how her ranking should drop (although I think it should).

That's an unfair knock on SYB saying "SK is declining to the point where someone like Shin is the top of the country". I think this falls on her teammates just as much if not more so. Good to see Lee Eunhye making progress, but they're also going to need more from Kim Nayeong. Park Gahyeon has shown some promise. I don't know if there's been any update on it, but SYB was having what looked to be shoulder issues during the Olympics. I'm hoping that's been healed, and we can see good things coming from her in the near future.

 

[5545]

That's an unfair knock on SYB saying "SK is declining to the point where someone like Shin is the top of the country". I think this falls on her teammates just as much if not more so. Good to see Lee Eunhye making progress, but they're also going to need more from Kim Nayeong. Park Gahyeon has shown some promise. I don't know if there's been any update on it, but SYB was having what looked to be shoulder issues during the Olympics. I'm hoping that's been healed, and we can see good things coming from her in the near future.

I wasn't blaming Shin for the country being worse than before, but the point is that Shin cannot lead (or she has not yet shown the capability) to carry her country like sister Jeon did.

Jeon Jihee acted like a real SK No 1 when she was in her prime. That is even more evident in WT.

Shin has yet to done so, but she needs to because that is the responsibility that comes as being on top of your country. Hopefully we see that soon.
All in all, SYB is a decent player but I still feel like she shouldn't be able to come on top of a country so strong with her questionable performances. It is a sad reflection of her country

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Hi, I just created this forum for the Singapore Smash, 30 Jan to 9 Feb. If anyone wants to discuss on what's gonna happen or in cases what has happened fell free to type it down here.

Not sure you were paying attention or looked. But there is a thread on this subject already and it has more than 8 pages of comments already. So this is getting merged into that thread.