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Who doesn't have first round exits at the Champion's level other than the top Chinese? I believe there was a time when Bernie Szocs was losing first round every time at either Champions or Smash, I believe Champions. Would you say her rating was inflated?

In Bundesliga, Aruna went through two periods, when he initially got there and performed reasonably, and later when he didn't like being there. Bundesliga is a tough league, some players with good records there haven't done much on tour and vice versa.

Of course his ranking is inflated by continental points as are many players, but you will still struggle to find a player below his ranking with the quality of wins he has. I gave you the list, try to find it in players ranked below him.
Nobody is taking away his wins against players from the Top 20.
But there is another list, his exits from the end of 2023, most of them at round 1: Kao, El-Belaili, Matsushima, O. Ionescu, Freitas, Matsushima, Uda, E. Ionescu, Walther, Huang.
These are all great players, but they are all way below Aruna in ranking. He wins against top players from time to time, but he had so many losses against people he was supposed to win.
1742480017990.png
 
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He's obviously a very good player but is average at the top level, with a big FH.
His ranking and supposedly amazing FH should have taken him further in almost every tournament I've seen him play so I'd agree, his ranking has always seemed inflated to me.
Maybe his FH translates into results against lesser players (and the odd big scalp) but its not often enough against higher level opposition to consider him in any top tier list, for anything!
Better to have the big FH than nothing notable of course. It's just that after that his limitations are pretty obvious as you've pointed out with so many disappointing results over the years.
For me this kinda feeds into the point I was trying to make about Ma Long.
If Ma only had his FH he'd be right there with Aruna. If Aruna had just a little bit more in other areas he could maybe use that FH to greater effect more regularly 🤷‍♂️
 
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Nobody is taking away his wins against players from the Top 20.
But there is another list, his exits from the end of 2023, most of them at round 1: Kao, El-Belaili, Matsushima, O. Ionescu, Freitas, Matsushima, Uda, E. Ionescu, Walther, Huang.
These are all great players, but they are all way below Aruna in ranking. He wins against top players from time to time, but he had so many losses against people he was supposed to win.
View attachment 35205
If you look at any player in the top 30, you will find a similar won and loss profile. Remember that prior to the Olympics, Truls for example lost a bunch of first round matches against various players.

I like the fact that you admit these are all great players, and Elbeiali, the outlier, also beat Apolonia that tournament and had played with Quadri in African events for over a decade.

You are citing matches played on tour during a period when sometimes it was questionable whether Quadri wanted to even play on tour (his focus was on league where most of his income is from).. But there are many results which h also show the flipside of this and I will continue to ask you to cite the wins that lower ranked players have against the top players Quadri has beaten.
 
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Who doesn't have first round exits at the Champion's level other than the top Chinese? I believe there was a time when Bernie Szocs was losing first round every time at either Champions or Smash, I believe Champions. Would you say her rating was inflated?

In Bundesliga, Aruna went through two periods, when he initially got there and performed reasonably, and later when he didn't like being there. Bundesliga is a tough league, some players with good records there haven't done much on tour and vice versa.

Of course his ranking is inflated by continental points as are many players, but you will still struggle to find a player below his ranking with the quality of wins he has. I gave you the list, try to find it in players ranked below him.
Grand Smash. 5 out of 5 at Singapore Smash 2022 (first-ever GS)/2023/2024, Saudi Smash 2024, and China Smash 2024.

Finally reached R16 where 0-3 CXT at Singapore Smash 2025.

Szocs' record in CS is actually decent, beating CM (WTT CS Macao 2022 and WTT CS Frankfurt 2023) and CXT (WTT CS Macao 2023). She's like the female LSS of ROU and you did post that she was overrated.
 
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If you look at any player in the top 30, you will find a similar won and loss profile. Remember that prior to the Olympics, Truls for example lost a bunch of first round matches against various players.

I like the fact that you admit these are all great players, and Elbeiali, the outlier, also beat Apolonia that tournament and had played with Quadri in African events for over a decade.

You are citing matches played on tour during a period when sometimes it was questionable whether Quadri wanted to even play on tour (his focus was on league where most of his income is from).. But there are many results which h also show the flipside of this and I will continue to ask you to cite the wins that lower ranked players have against the top players Quadri has beaten.
Dima is below Aruna in the ranking (lol). Should I cite his wins over top opponents? :)
I appreciate your dedication to defending Aruna tho, commendable.
 
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Grand Smash. 5 out of 5 at Singapore Smash 2022 (first-ever GS)/2023/2024, Saudi Smash 2024, and China Smash 2024.

Finally reached R16 where 0-3 CXT at Singapore Smash 2025.

Szocs' record in CS is actually decent, beating CM (WTT CS Macao 2022 and WTT CS Frankfurt 2023) and CXT (WTT CS Macao 2023). She's like the female LSS of ROU and you did post that she was overrated.
I find it hard to believe I posted Szocs was overrated, in what context did I do that? I thought it was you arguing that the European women (and Shin Yubin) were overrated prior to the Olympics and that Miu Hirano would overtake them in ranking or something along those lines.
 
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Dima is below Aruna in the ranking (lol). Should I cite his wins over top opponents? :)
I appreciate your dedication to defending Aruna tho, commendable.
I have always held that the current ranking system measures performance but not player strength like an ELO system does, so you get no reward for quality of wins, it is all about what round you make in events. So I am not a slave to the current system in assessing player strength, one has to take a holistic view of the player and the results. Liam Pitchford (who beat Dima in the later half of last year) was the player I was defending in one dimension of this. If you decided to look at ratings central which is a quality of wins and losses indicator and combines performance across various competitions in league, you can get a different result from looking at just the tour rankings. Sometimes they both tell the same story, other times, you can see that a player is doing well in one and not in the other.

Quadri's record speaks for itself, you can focus on the losses in events all you want, but I have pointed out that in addition to having fewer bad losses (though one can debate what a bad loss is when you have to play on tour and cannot withdraw when you do not feel ready to play as was the case when most of the matches you are pointing to happened), he has wins that many of the players who are lower ranked than him do not have. If Dima is your main example, and you think Dima is that far ahead of Quadri based on current form, knock yourself out. I don't think anyone would bet their life on Dima beating Quadri and sleep well at night.
 
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Quadri's record speaks for itself, ... I don't think anyone would bet their life on Dima beating Quadri and sleep well at night.

Totally agree.

Quadri is an amazing player. One can only imagine the heights he might've reached if he'd had the quality coaching and support some of the other world Top 20 players have benefitted from since their youth.

I've had the privilege of seeing Quadri play live against other (non-CNT) world Top 20 players. You can see/feel/hear so much more watching live than you can on TV/YouTube, and I think that anyone who's seen him play live would agree that Quadri's FH is truly special. When he connects it right, it's simply in a different league.
 
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Forehand: Wang Chuqin.
Backhand: Lin Shidong.
Serves: Lin Shidong.
Mentality: Harimoto
Feeling: Lin Shidong
Personality: Harimoto
Power: Wang Chuqin
Celebration: Harimoto
Is this of the younger tt generation?

Can you give me a few reasons why you put Lin Shi Dong for serves?

To me he looks like he always hides the ball.
 
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I find it hard to believe I posted Szocs was overrated, in what context did I do that? I thought it was you arguing that the European women (and Shin Yubin) were overrated prior to the Olympics and that Miu Hirano would overtake them in ranking or something along those lines.
SYB is overrated, hands down. Even KTTA coaches and officials openly criticized her for failing her role as an ace at WTTC 2024.

As I pointed out, SYB had a great team working behind the scene, unlike the naive JTTA with a 70% disapproval.

Not the first time KOR got better seeding through strategic planning. Back before London 2012, where KOR edged GER out of the 2nd seed in MT, in which the trio of RSM, JSH and OSE lay low and made calculated moves at the last moment by flying all the way to multiple Opens in South America for ranking points, blindsiding GER. It was well-discussed over in mainland China back then.
 
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Duda (16 -> 17) drops 1 place only even w/o 350 pts from ETTC silver. A. Lebrun (9 -> 12) drops 3 places only even w/o 500 pts from ETTC gold. Aruna (18 -> 28), O. Assar (19 -> 31), Jha (27 -> 41), and Vitor (50 -> 95) see a double-digit drop w/o Continental points. Not to mention those from Oceania.

Szocs (13 -> 14) drops 1 place only even w/o 350 pts from ETTC silver. Polcanova (14 -> 19) and Diaz (16 -> 21) both drop 5 places only and DHK (36 -> 39) 3 places only even w/o 500 pts from ETTC gold and PATTC gold and 175 pts from ATTC bronze, respectively. Zhang Mo (42 -> 48) drops 6 places. Shan Xiaona (48 -> 55) drops 7 places. Lily Zhang (24 -> 33) drops 9 places. Takahashi (18 -> 30), Goda (26 -> 47) and Meshref (33-> 74) see a double-digit drop.

Men's Singles
2025 Week #12 - March 18th
https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/2025_12_SEN_MS.html
RankNameAssocPointsRankNameAssocPointsw/oContinentalEvents
1LINShidongCHN83251LINShidongCHN8325
2WANGChuqinCHN69252WANGChuqinCHN6775
3TomokazuHARIMOTOJPN47253TomokazuHARIMOTOJPN4575
4LIANGJingkunCHN43754LIANGJingkunCHN4200
5HugoCALDERANOBRA37755HugoCALDERANOBRA3450
6FelixLEBRUNFRA31706FelixLEBRUNFRA3170
7TrulsMOREGARDSWE29807TrulsMOREGARDSWE2895
8PatrickFRANZISKAGER26608PatrickFRANZISKAGER2575
9AlexisLEBRUNFRA242010LINGaoyuanCHN2415
10LINGaoyuanCHN241511DangQIUGER2300
11DangQIUGER230012JANGWoojinKOR2201
12JANGWoojinKOR22019AlexisLEBRUNFRA2010
13DarkoJORGICSLO202014LINYun-JuTPE1785
14LINYun-JuTPE178513DarkoJORGICSLO1760
15AntonKALLBERGSWE168515AntonKALLBERGSWE1685
16BenediktDUDAGER162017JonathanGROTHDEN1340
17JonathanGROTHDEN139016BenediktDUDAGER1290
18QuadriARUNANGR129021ANJaehyunKOR1215
19OmarASSAREGY125022XIANGPengCHN1200
20DimitrijOVTCHAROVGER121523KAOCheng-JuiTPE1160
21ANJaehyunKOR121524ShunsukeTOGAMIJPN1150
22XIANGPengCHN120020DimitrijOVTCHAROVGER1130
23ShunsukeTOGAMIJPN117026CHODaeseongKOR1065
24KAOCheng-JuiTPE116028CHENYuanyuCHN1025
25HirotoSHINOZUKAJPN111525HirotoSHINOZUKAJPN985
26CHODaeseongKOR106529YukiyaUDAJPN898
27KanakJHAUSA104030AndersLINDDEN875
28CHENYuanyuCHN102518QuadriARUNANGR830
29YukiyaUDAJPN96831SoraMATSUSHIMAJPN830
30AndersLINDDEN87532AlvaroROBLESESP805
31SoraMATSUSHIMAJPN83019OmarASSAREGY765
32AlvaroROBLESESP82533RicardoWALTHERGER749
33RicardoWALTHERGER74937XUEFeiCHN694
34NicholasLUMAUS72038ZHOUQihaoCHN680
35FinnLUUAUS71039LEESangSuKOR670
36OHJunsungKOR71040WONGChunTingHKG655
37XUEFeiCHN69442TomislavPUCARCRO615
38ZHOUQihaoCHN68043LIMJonghoonKOR580
39LEESangSuKOR67046YutaTANAKAJPN578
40WONGChunTingHKG65544MaharuYOSHIMURAJPN565
41HwanBAEAUS62327KanakJHAUSA550
42TomislavPUCARCRO61536OHJunsungKOR550
43LIMJonghoonKOR60551SimonGAUZYFRA545
44MaharuYOSHIMURAJPN59552WENRuiboCHN525
45MohamedELBEIALIEGY58348MiloszREDZIMSKIPOL510
46YutaTANAKAJPN57847HUANGYouzhengCHN500
47HUANGYouzhengCHN57553NoshadALAMIYANIRI495
48MiloszREDZIMSKIPOL55354KirillGERASSIMENKOKAZ485
49AdityaSAREENAUS55355ThibaultPORETFRA463
50VitorISHIYBRA54956ManavTHAKKARIND445

Women's Singles
2025 Week #12 - March 18th
https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/2025_12_SEN_WS.html
RankNameAssocPointsRankNameAssocPointsw/oContinentalEvents
1SUNYingshaCHN113001SUNYingshaCHN11300
2WANGManyuCHN72002WANGManyuCHN7050
3WANGYidiCHN43753WANGYidiCHN4375
4CHENXingtongCHN42504CHENXingtongCHN4250
5HinaHAYATAJPN34705HinaHAYATAJPN3470
6MiwaHARIMOTOJPN33056MiwaHARIMOTOJPN3220
7KUAIManCHN31607KUAIManCHN3020
8SatsukiODOJPN26108SatsukiODOJPN2610
9MimaITOJPN21909MimaITOJPN2105
10SHINYubinKOR195010SHINYubinKOR1950
11CHENGI-ChingTPE187011CHENGI-ChingTPE1870
12QIANTianyiCHN177012QIANTianyiCHN1770
13BernadetteSZOCSROU172515MiuHIRANOJPN1530
14SofiaPOLCANOVAAUT161013BernadetteSZOCSROU1465
15MiuHIRANOJPN153017MiyuuKIHARAJPN1300
16AdrianaDIAZPUR150019HEZhuojiaCHN1210
17MiyuuKIHARAJPN130020CHENYiCHN1195
18BrunaTAKAHASHIBRA121521SHIXunyaoCHN1150
19HEZhuojiaCHN121014SofiaPOLCANOVAAUT1125
20CHENYiCHN119522MiyuNAGASAKIJPN1125
21SHIXunyaoCHN117516AdrianaDIAZPUR1090
22MiyuNAGASAKIJPN112523SUHHyoWonKOR1000
23SUHHyoWonKOR105525PrithikaPAVADEFRA980
24LilyZHANGUSA99027ManikaBATRAIND870
25PrithikaPAVADEFRA98028SreejaAKULAIND870
26HanaGODAEGY97029JOOCheonhuiKOR860
27ManikaBATRAIND89031HonokaHASHIMOTOJPN830
28SreejaAKULAIND87030HUANGYi-HuaTPE805
29JOOCheonhuiKOR86034SakuraYOKOIJPN758
30HUANGYi-HuaTPE83518BrunaTAKAHASHIBRA750
31HonokaHASHIMOTOJPN83035FANSiqiCHN750
32ElizabetaSAMARAROU79537ZHUYulingMAC707
33DinaMESHREFEGY77524LilyZHANGUSA655
34SakuraYOKOIJPN75841SakuraMORIJPN645
35FANSiqiCHN75044WANGXiaotongCHN640
36DOOHoiKemHKG72039LEEEunhyeKOR625
37ZHUYulingMAC70746KIMNayeongKOR610
38YangziLIUAUS68547BrittEERLANDNED603
39LEEEunhyeKOR67036DOOHoiKemHKG590
40NinaMITTELHAMGER65543JiaNanYUANFRA575
41SakuraMORIJPN64549XiaoxinYANGMON570
42MoZHANGCAN64551CHIENTung-ChuanTPE550
43JiaNanYUANFRA64553QINYuxuanCHN515
44WANGXiaotongCHN64054ZONGGemanCHN504
45MinhyungJEEAUS62940NinaMITTELHAMGER495
46KIMNayeongKOR61050LindaBERGSTROMSWE495
47BrittEERLANDNED60326HanaGODAEGY490
48XiaonaSHANGER59042MoZHANGCAN485
49XiaoxinYANGMON57032ElizabetaSAMARAROU465
50LindaBERGSTROMSWE56552JieniSHAOPOR454
 
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Duda (16 -> 17) drops 1 place only even w/o 350 pts from ETTC silver. A. Lebrun (9 -> 12) drops 3 places only even w/o 500 pts from ETTC gold. Aruna (18 -> 28), O. Assar (19 -> 31), Jha (27 -> 41), and Vitor (50 -> 95) see a double-digit drop w/o Continental points. Not to mention those from Oceania.

Szocs (13 -> 14) drops 1 place only even w/o 350 pts from ETTC silver. Polcanova (14 -> 19) and Diaz (16 -> 21) both drop 5 places only and DHK (36 -> 39) 3 places only even w/o 500 pts from ETTC gold and PATTC gold and 175 pts from ATTC bronze, respectively. Zhang Mo (42 -> 48) drops 6 places. Shan Xiaona (48 -> 55) drops 7 places. Lily Zhang (24 -> 33) drops 9 places. Takahashi (18 -> 30), Goda (26 -> 47) and Meshref (33-> 74) see a double-digit drop.

Men's Singles
2025 Week #12 - March 18th
https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/2025_12_SEN_MS.html
RankNameAssocPointsRankNameAssocPointsw/oContinentalEvents
1LINShidongCHN83251LINShidongCHN8325
2WANGChuqinCHN69252WANGChuqinCHN6775
3TomokazuHARIMOTOJPN47253TomokazuHARIMOTOJPN4575
4LIANGJingkunCHN43754LIANGJingkunCHN4200
5HugoCALDERANOBRA37755HugoCALDERANOBRA3450
6FelixLEBRUNFRA31706FelixLEBRUNFRA3170
7TrulsMOREGARDSWE29807TrulsMOREGARDSWE2895
8PatrickFRANZISKAGER26608PatrickFRANZISKAGER2575
9AlexisLEBRUNFRA242010LINGaoyuanCHN2415
10LINGaoyuanCHN241511DangQIUGER2300
11DangQIUGER230012JANGWoojinKOR2201
12JANGWoojinKOR22019AlexisLEBRUNFRA2010
13DarkoJORGICSLO202014LINYun-JuTPE1785
14LINYun-JuTPE178513DarkoJORGICSLO1760
15AntonKALLBERGSWE168515AntonKALLBERGSWE1685
16BenediktDUDAGER162017JonathanGROTHDEN1340
17JonathanGROTHDEN139016BenediktDUDAGER1290
18QuadriARUNANGR129021ANJaehyunKOR1215
19OmarASSAREGY125022XIANGPengCHN1200
20DimitrijOVTCHAROVGER121523KAOCheng-JuiTPE1160
21ANJaehyunKOR121524ShunsukeTOGAMIJPN1150
22XIANGPengCHN120020DimitrijOVTCHAROVGER1130
23ShunsukeTOGAMIJPN117026CHODaeseongKOR1065
24KAOCheng-JuiTPE116028CHENYuanyuCHN1025
25HirotoSHINOZUKAJPN111525HirotoSHINOZUKAJPN985
26CHODaeseongKOR106529YukiyaUDAJPN898
27KanakJHAUSA104030AndersLINDDEN875
28CHENYuanyuCHN102518QuadriARUNANGR830
29YukiyaUDAJPN96831SoraMATSUSHIMAJPN830
30AndersLINDDEN87532AlvaroROBLESESP805
31SoraMATSUSHIMAJPN83019OmarASSAREGY765
32AlvaroROBLESESP82533RicardoWALTHERGER749
33RicardoWALTHERGER74937XUEFeiCHN694
34NicholasLUMAUS72038ZHOUQihaoCHN680
35FinnLUUAUS71039LEESangSuKOR670
36OHJunsungKOR71040WONGChunTingHKG655
37XUEFeiCHN69442TomislavPUCARCRO615
38ZHOUQihaoCHN68043LIMJonghoonKOR580
39LEESangSuKOR67046YutaTANAKAJPN578
40WONGChunTingHKG65544MaharuYOSHIMURAJPN565
41HwanBAEAUS62327KanakJHAUSA550
42TomislavPUCARCRO61536OHJunsungKOR550
43LIMJonghoonKOR60551SimonGAUZYFRA545
44MaharuYOSHIMURAJPN59552WENRuiboCHN525
45MohamedELBEIALIEGY58348MiloszREDZIMSKIPOL510
46YutaTANAKAJPN57847HUANGYouzhengCHN500
47HUANGYouzhengCHN57553NoshadALAMIYANIRI495
48MiloszREDZIMSKIPOL55354KirillGERASSIMENKOKAZ485
49AdityaSAREENAUS55355ThibaultPORETFRA463
50VitorISHIYBRA54956ManavTHAKKARIND445

Women's Singles
2025 Week #12 - March 18th
https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/2025_12_SEN_WS.html
RankNameAssocPointsRankNameAssocPointsw/oContinentalEvents
1SUNYingshaCHN113001SUNYingshaCHN11300
2WANGManyuCHN72002WANGManyuCHN7050
3WANGYidiCHN43753WANGYidiCHN4375
4CHENXingtongCHN42504CHENXingtongCHN4250
5HinaHAYATAJPN34705HinaHAYATAJPN3470
6MiwaHARIMOTOJPN33056MiwaHARIMOTOJPN3220
7KUAIManCHN31607KUAIManCHN3020
8SatsukiODOJPN26108SatsukiODOJPN2610
9MimaITOJPN21909MimaITOJPN2105
10SHINYubinKOR195010SHINYubinKOR1950
11CHENGI-ChingTPE187011CHENGI-ChingTPE1870
12QIANTianyiCHN177012QIANTianyiCHN1770
13BernadetteSZOCSROU172515MiuHIRANOJPN1530
14SofiaPOLCANOVAAUT161013BernadetteSZOCSROU1465
15MiuHIRANOJPN153017MiyuuKIHARAJPN1300
16AdrianaDIAZPUR150019HEZhuojiaCHN1210
17MiyuuKIHARAJPN130020CHENYiCHN1195
18BrunaTAKAHASHIBRA121521SHIXunyaoCHN1150
19HEZhuojiaCHN121014SofiaPOLCANOVAAUT1125
20CHENYiCHN119522MiyuNAGASAKIJPN1125
21SHIXunyaoCHN117516AdrianaDIAZPUR1090
22MiyuNAGASAKIJPN112523SUHHyoWonKOR1000
23SUHHyoWonKOR105525PrithikaPAVADEFRA980
24LilyZHANGUSA99027ManikaBATRAIND870
25PrithikaPAVADEFRA98028SreejaAKULAIND870
26HanaGODAEGY97029JOOCheonhuiKOR860
27ManikaBATRAIND89031HonokaHASHIMOTOJPN830
28SreejaAKULAIND87030HUANGYi-HuaTPE805
29JOOCheonhuiKOR86034SakuraYOKOIJPN758
30HUANGYi-HuaTPE83518BrunaTAKAHASHIBRA750
31HonokaHASHIMOTOJPN83035FANSiqiCHN750
32ElizabetaSAMARAROU79537ZHUYulingMAC707
33DinaMESHREFEGY77524LilyZHANGUSA655
34SakuraYOKOIJPN75841SakuraMORIJPN645
35FANSiqiCHN75044WANGXiaotongCHN640
36DOOHoiKemHKG72039LEEEunhyeKOR625
37ZHUYulingMAC70746KIMNayeongKOR610
38YangziLIUAUS68547BrittEERLANDNED603
39LEEEunhyeKOR67036DOOHoiKemHKG590
40NinaMITTELHAMGER65543JiaNanYUANFRA575
41SakuraMORIJPN64549XiaoxinYANGMON570
42MoZHANGCAN64551CHIENTung-ChuanTPE550
43JiaNanYUANFRA64553QINYuxuanCHN515
44WANGXiaotongCHN64054ZONGGemanCHN504
45MinhyungJEEAUS62940NinaMITTELHAMGER495
46KIMNayeongKOR61050LindaBERGSTROMSWE495
47BrittEERLANDNED60326HanaGODAEGY490
48XiaonaSHANGER59042MoZHANGCAN485
49XiaoxinYANGMON57032ElizabetaSAMARAROU465
50LindaBERGSTROMSWE56552JieniSHAOPOR454
Did you do this manually or with AI?
 
says Back to shakehand. Got a Skyline 3-60 and Tin arc 5 for...
says Back to shakehand. Got a Skyline 3-60 and Tin arc 5 for...
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There are some penholders who have all time great backhands such as Wang Hao and Felix is on his way maybe as well. But Xu Xin isn't one of them lol.
why? He’s been named as the cloud walker ? His shots are absolutely incredible aren’t they?
 
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Did you do this manually or with AI?
With a script I wrote. Nice of you to ask. A STEM grad here. Why do you think I kept posting about AI and robots?

For the first few times here and over at MyTT (gone with the wind T_T), I did it manually, then in Excel, but then the constant needs guaranteed automation.
 
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