How to return the hook serve if I can’t see the contact point

[boretennis]

 

[NetProphet]

Forget the contact. Just push long with your own force (get good contact) by borrowing the incoming sidespin, disregarding the topspin or backspin element. When faced with that, the most important thing is not to hesitate and just "touch" the ball.

Can you explain this a bit more?

That's how Waldner and Persson checkmated LGL after figuring out the trick.

Any vids or links of what you mean?

 

[Robin0910]

Forget the contact. Just push long with your own force (get good contact) by borrowing the incoming sidespin, disregarding the topspin or backspin element. When faced with that, the most important thing is not to hesitate and just "touch" the ball. That's how Waldner and Persson checkmated LGL after figuring out the trick.

p.s.
Also, look for patterns. Like how Tanaka noticed that WCQ almost always served topspin with his shovel serve.

I’m also interested in this

 

[NextLevel]

Forget the contact. Just push long with your own force (get good contact) by borrowing the incoming sidespin, disregarding the topspin or backspin element. When faced with that, the most important thing is not to hesitate and just "touch" the ball. That's how Waldner and Persson checkmated LGL after figuring out the trick.

p.s.
Also, look for patterns. Like how Tanaka noticed that WCQ almost always served topspin with his shovel serve.

The problem with this is that hidden contact allows them to serve almost pure backspin and if the serve is heavy, you need to push it straight up.

 

[blahness]

Blade angle methods for disguising spin is basically primary school level servers, and are just easy af to decipher unless they hide which is just cheating lol.

It is entirely possible to serve heavy backspin with a near perpendicular angle if the brushing direction is downwards, and it is also possible to serve heavy sidetopspin with an open bat angle if the brushing direction is upwards. The force direction is always the key, not so much the blade angle. Unfortunately with those who have fast racket movements powered by the body (both brushing and fake movement), it is very difficult to decipher which is real and which is fake. There is always 1 real and 1 fake movement, and one is upwards, the other is downwards.

With regards to receive techniques, I wrote about this before.

Slow looping, particularly slow loop and going with the sidespin is the most secure way of receiving. But you can't use it if it is short.

Slow BH chiquita is also incredibly error tolerant. This is because you are actively cancelling out the incoming spin with your own.

On FH side, most error tolerant is actually the FH sideswipe which basically works against all short balls, and also actively uses sidespin to cancel out the incoming spin. Also the FH sideswipe can be quite disgusting to loop too, so most players will just slow loop it, and as long as you have good block against opening loop you can head into the topspin rally easily.

 

[canonFH]

If I can't read the spin from contact point, making a good receive is out. So I focus on putting the ball on the table. That means I:

1. Try to read the spin from the bounce and speed, and ball's logo. This usually works once I get used to the serves.
2. Slow loop or heavy chop long serves depending on what the opponent is good at.
3. Play all short serves as only sidespin and poke them/swipe them if right sidespin and push if left sidespin (this is just a personal preference).

For all these, you have to take it very very late so the opponent is usually prepared, but mediocre receives can be quite good if you understand the opponent's weaknesses and focus on placement.

 

[zeio]

The problem with this is that hidden contact allows them to serve almost pure backspin and if the serve is heavy, you need to push it straight up.

There was a Div B player at my club that I liked to play because he hid his serves, mostly pure backspin and no-spin, which were easy to tell from the bounce even without seeing the contact.

There was a visitor that had a really good completely open pendulum serve that was a mix of side-topspin and -backspin with nearly the same motion. It was much harder to deal with because the urge to read the contact interfered with focusing on the bounce and the timing of the subsequent "good contact" push.

 

[zeio]

Can you explain this a bit more?

Any vids or links of what you mean?

It's as written in my last post. You have to figure out the specifics yourself. The folks at my club discussed how Waldner overcame LGL during one dinner in the early 2010s, over a decade after the fact, and that was the conclusion.

See the videos. Waldner still missed quite a bit and didn't get the push across all the time. Kong Linghui and Wang Tao had overwhelming H2H against LGL and had way less trouble dealing with his serves. Study how they handle it.

Men Team Final | Waldner Jan-Ove vs Liu Guoliang WTTC 2000 Highlights
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doIfi4CBP04

[Note: This match right after WTTC 2000]
2000 Jan Ove Waldner vs Liu Guoliang
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WLff0IopZ4

1995 WTTC ━ Kong Linghui vs Liu Guoliang
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mMuv65RXxo

 

[banbekas]

nearly the same motion.

this is the key. You look for that slightly different motion.

 

[KM1976]

If you cannot see the contact point then you have few options -
1. Try to judge by the bounce of the ball. This essentially means that you will have to do a late receive, meaning receiving after the peak of the bounce and you have to work with your placement and control of force. If I return the ball which lands deep and is slower then I buy time for myself to defend the next ball. So, in this case, you have to judge the trajectory and then decide on the placement and be ready to defend or possibly open the ball. Now, trajectory is a tricky part, but if you can do a decent backspin serve and decent topspin serve you should observe the trajectory of your own serves, this actually helps if you really observe as you will notice that a backspin ball slows down and sometimes skids on the table. Whereas a topspin serve seems to stretch further as it bounces. You can also try practicing the same serve and serve it to your opponent and observe his reaction. This would also give you some clues. There is no need to get that advanced in the same serve. Basically if you can do a decent backhand serve with side under or side top it will surely help.
2. I have seen a few players using this option as well, so worth mentioning. But this requires a lot of practice. You can basically slice on the bottom of the ball with very soft hands and make any serve return with backspin. Again, this is not easy and honestly, I tried it but with limited success. So I think I personally will go with option 1.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

If you cannot see the contact point then you have few options -
1. Try to judge by the bounce of the ball. This essentially means that you will have to do a late receive, meaning receiving after the peak of the bounce and you have to work with your placement and control of force. If I return the ball which lands deep and is slower then I buy time for myself to defend the next ball. So, in this case, you have to judge the trajectory and then decide on the placement and be ready to defend or possibly open the ball. Now, trajectory is a tricky part, but if you can do a decent backspin serve and decent topspin serve you should observe the trajectory of your own serves, this actually helps if you really observe as you will notice that a backspin ball slows down and sometimes skids on the table. Whereas a topspin serve seems to stretch further as it bounces. You can also try practicing the same serve and serve it to your opponent and observe his reaction. This would also give you some clues. There is no need to get that advanced in the same serve. Basically if you can do a decent backhand serve with side under or side top it will surely help.
2. I have seen a few players using this option as well, so worth mentioning. But this requires a lot of practice. You can basically slice on the bottom of the ball with very soft hands and make any serve return with backspin. Again, this is not easy and honestly, I tried it but with limited success. So I think I personally will go with option 1.

I agree with the late receive but if the serve is fast coming at you then It’s difficult

 

[NextLevel]

I agree with the late receive but if the serve is fast coming at you then It’s difficult

Fast coming at you usually means long.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Fast coming at you usually means long.

Long or half long yes

 

[NextLevel]

Long or half long yes

For me, long serve, you just wait and loop. It is the heavy spin short ones that require you to commit over the table that tend to be more problematic. Not saying long serves can't cause trouble, but over time, you should get your fair share of makes and points if the opponent is the same level.

 

[zeio]

Alone, half long or fast serves are not that bad even if you can't see the contact. It's when they are mixed together that makes them a real pain to handle.

 

[Tyce]

Long and short help as well

A short serve, that stays short after the bounce, cannot be a significant amount of topspin. So you can safely push or simply bounce off the bat to the middle of the table.
Also, a really short serve will usually give you enough time to see any sidespin in the curve of the ball.

Semi short to half long are probably the hardest to judge, but also the perfect area to start flipping. Hook serve with pendulum sidespin is very rare and weird, so unless you play against someone who really wants that ball to their BH it's going to be neutral or side towards their FH.
You can still judge by the second bounce and adjust your bat angle, or ignore that and focus on flipping with some serious grip on your spin. Aim to mid or BH to compensate for sidespin.

Long serve, it's loopy time. I find it hard to adjust from opening loop to a counter type loop in case of topspin, but maybe it's easier to do it the other way, assume you get topspin and if the ball slows down, adjust to an opening loop.

 

[KM1976]

I agree with the late receive but if the serve is fast coming at you then It’s difficult

Yes, I agree. On a fast serve, you need to do the following -
1. Read the first bounce on the server court to check if the serve is long or short. I myself, sometimes ignore this part and pay the price. So, as I write, I am also making mental notes to ingrain this habit for myself.
2. This is a righty vs. Lefty scenario. In this case, the hook serve would curve in into the body of the receiver if served to the FH/middle or will curve away from the BH if served to the BH.
3. The key here is that the receiver until he is very good on attack, should try for placement and sending the ball back low,deep and with less spin making a control shot. If the return is deep enough and low enough you will often see non-pro players doing too much on the 3rd ball means either lifting it too much or trying to put too much power in the stroke. Both of these approaches on 3rd ball in my opinion have low to limited success rate in a 11 point match. If the serve comes to FH/middle then be ready to take your left leg back (assuming you are left handed like me) and use FH. If the ball curves out of your BH, then take the right leg out and follow the ball by keeping its trajectory in your middle before making a BH stroke.
4. If the serve has sidespin then it makes it a bit easy, as with receive you can learn to return the sidespin back. A good coach can show this part.
5. Another part to check here is that most players are predictable. Like, if the ball curves into the body, they try to hit the ball at a particular place on the table. This can be very helpful if you need additional time and predictability on your footwork.
6. Lastly, observe your opponent like - When does he do this serve in a match, which spin and what is his follow up strategy? If you divide the game into start, middle and finish, you will see that players often tend to rely on topspin serves in the end as they don't want to struggle by lifting a backspin, but again it depends on individual. This is just an example. So, if you can remember then mentally next time you will be better prepared.
7. See how other players return the same serve. I mentioned earlier, serve the same spin to your opponent and check his way of returning.

 

[zeio]

A demonstration of the "good contact" push by ZYL at 10:9 of G3 with Odo serving at WTT CS Incheon 2025. ZYL mentioned she couldn't receive well on BH.

LIVE! | WTT Champions Incheon 2025 | Day 5 | Quarterfinals | Session 1
https://youtu.be/1LTM4sFfgVo?t=7643

p.s.
Another one at 9:6 of G5.

---

A demonstration of a related receive stroke, 推挑/literally "push (think of TPB) flick", by WYD against SYB at 9:3 and 10:3 of G2.

LIVE! | WTT Champions Incheon 2025 | Day 5 | Quarterfinals | Session 2
https://youtu.be/tS_GiwHl0l8?t=1493

 

[zeio]

Another demonstration by ZYL at 9:1 of G5 with Yokoi serving at WTT CT Taiyuan 2025.

 

[Dr Evil]

Loop the long ones, long push the short and half-long ones. Put heavy spin on both and you usually get more than enough error tolerance to put it on the table with decent quality. Not great but sometimes good enough.