WTT Champions Incheon 2025 - 1-6 Apr 2025

[ThePongCommenter]

We just have different parameters for how we assess players ability and also what tier they belong to.
It is all subjective and that why discussion is needed and usually that involves recognising the point ls of agreement on both sides (as I've tried to do in reference to past results) but there is no attempt to assess the player right now and the collective results of the past 6 years because that doesn't fit the subjective narrative.
All we can do is wait, and if he takes down a few more top Chinese then I'm wrong and if he doesn't then I'm wrong because, well, you know, years ago and we'll just keep saying he's comparable to FZD and ML.

I had a similar(ISH) argument about Gauzy before where I was trying to say I've seen him play so well and look like he was going to pull a result, like where he looked like a threat and superior players had to up their game to beat him. He beat XX in 2019 and expectations for future results were there but they never happened. He'd go 1-0 up and lose, 2-1 up and lose etc. Have a game point at 10-9 and miss it etc and I was laughed out of here because Gauzy is a pretender and a joker apparently.
And maybe he is but he can play in a way sometimes that makes him a danger but I never classed him as a real threat or compared him with FZD or ML.
I'll go out in a limb and guess Gauzy has a better H2H V LSS and that LSS was beating him 6 yrs ago and Gauzy has better record in recent yrs but memory only, could be they're tied on H2H...?
Anyway, I'm flogging a dead horse so I'll take my assertions about tiers, levels and threats and keep them for training hall discussion, it's not constructive discussion in here

Xu Xin underperformed that match because I said so. No other wins against top Chinese players, in their prime or not, for Gauzy. It's okay though, he was up 1-0 and had game points a few times, actually winning the match doesn't matter!

Look, I can do this too!

 

[ThePongCommenter]

The 'best day argument' is entirely subjective and needs a shovel of nuance. It doesn't take into account the condition of the top players in that match, and it doesn't accord any significance to the overall win rate against the top players.

For example, if Player A has a 4/30 win rate against ML/FZD/XX, but has at least one win against the trio. I don't think saying he can beat them on "his best day" is a good measure of player A's ability, more like he can beat them when they have their worst days, when heaven and earth align, and the creeks don't rise.

But a 30% win rate against the top players definitely warrants a "can beat them on his best day" tag.

It's all relative obviously. Who has a 30% win rate against top Chinese players?

 

[NextLevel]

The 'best day argument' is entirely subjective and needs a shovel of nuance. It doesn't take into account the condition of the top players in that match, and it doesn't accord any significance to the overall win rate against the top players.

For example, if Player A has a 4/30 win rate against ML/FZD/XX, but has at least one win against the trio. I don't think saying he can beat them on "his best day" is a good measure of player A's ability, more like he can beat them when they have their worst days, when heaven and earth align, and the creeks don't rise.

But a 30% win rate against the top players definitely warrants a "can beat them on his best day" tag.

It can be called a focus on outliers for sure, but the question becomes who else has those outliers? When only one or two players have beaten the super Chinese, it is no longer juat a trivial fact. Lee Sang Su is also a WTTC bronze medalist (2017) so it isn't like he never won anything in his career. But when he plays well, he plays sublime table tennis. There are players like this that have never won anything so people don't even talk about them (one of my favorite is Kiril Skachkov), but Lee actually had a lot of results to show even with his limitations he can have great days.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Poor show dude. Maybe XX did underperform, if I'd seen the match I'd be able to discuss that and if he did I'd admit it rather than trying to bend stuff to my stubborn ego.
And I didn't insult you anywhere, you just don't like being incorrect. Laughing at your own assertion that ancient results prove he's a major threat is very Kamala like, it's to laugh when there's nothing else left. Sorry if you feel bad that I point that out 🤷‍♂️
Every player is a threat but there are differing levels of threat. You don't want to discuss that though because you're stuck in the hole you dug by saying repeatedly that LSS is a major one but you can only point to the past.
So you're descending into farce tactics now because you know that at best he's a minor one. It's a logical conclusion that I hoped you'd reach yourself but you can't bring yourself to say it because you just cannot admit you're wrong. That's sad.

So my handle is different. Who cares? You care? Oh sorry, I'll run it by you next time I want to change something. See how ridiculous this is getting now?

So off you toddle to tell everyone else what a giant threat LSS is to the best Chinese players, I'm done with your nonsense.
I'll focus my attention (as I'm sure the Chinese will) on the actual threats to them, the players that can actually beat them to a title.

[1:05] Timo Boll: "[Lee Sangsu] is one of the most dangerous players on the tour". From 2021, within the 6-year Sims/NetProphet-confirmed period of decline. Too bad Timo didn't get the memo that LSS was past his peak so clearly he couldn't possibly pose any danger anymore in any given match.

 

[banbekas]

you speak like someone who has walked that path??
how do you know he did not take anything to help?


this is some big words


I wonder if we watched the same match.
2 players, one will succeed, one will fail.
LSS had a very good tournament and nobody even expected him to finish so far.

Whether or not he chocked or his body ran out of steam, he did a damn good job.
dude is like what, 36.... not sure how many more WTT he would have left, and i'm not sure which other Koreans can go through what he gone through to get to the final, it was no easy draw.

Never said he didn't do a good job in the tournament. Merely stating that if he felt any discomfort, he could have gotten some help like how XX did to ease the pain and go big for the Incheon.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

For sure, but he needed to force his body for one last match. A painkiller shot or something between the match like XX did back in 2015 WTTC.

Home arena motivated him before the final. Choking in the home arena is a common thing. After all this is one of the biggest moments in his life.

As for me, I think his purple patch was over in the final. He was back to his level after a few moments of bull run.

Do you know what he did or didn't do to try to cure his injury and be at 100% for the XP match? I'm sure athletes all around the world would be thrilled if all injuries had immediate solutions before match time lol.

 

[NextLevel]

Never said he didn't do a good job in the tournament. Merely stating that if he felt any discomfort, he could have gotten some help like how XX did to ease the pain and go big for the Incheon.

Many athletes are playing with help, as you get older, it is often less effective. At a certain point, retirement beckons. The good days become fewer, but what ThePongCommenter is focusing on is the good days.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

he could have gotten some help like how XX did to ease the pain and go big for the Incheon.

and you know for sure he didn't?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Do you know what he did or didn't do to try to cure his injury and be at 100% for the XP match? I'm sure athletes all around the world would be thrilled if all injuries had immediate solutions before match time lol.

if you find a magic potion, please tell!!

 

[zeio]

For those who have very strong opinions and who resolutely believe and have their "can't disclose on TTD sources" that the Olympic Champions were forced out and they had no say in the post-Olympic transition of the CNT in the new circle.

What is LGY still doing on that team?, I mean at this point, he's simply blocking the younger guys with more fire in their loins. He's not strategically guarding any strongpost, Why's he still on the team?
Cos I imagine it'd be a no-brainer for the coaches to essentially demand his retirement in the "out with the old, in with the new" policy, but yet here he is.

What else can it be other than forced labor?

On a serious note, I guess LGY is playing for his dad, who started a TT club to see if LGY could extend his dream and passed away at the start of 2025. And as LGL said at the end of day 2 of the WTTC 2017 selection trial, "opportunities are to be seized by you, not to be granted by me." (@4:08) Like how he earned his spot for WTTC 2017, LGY beat XP in the selection trial for WTTC 2022. As of February, he will play until at least the National Games 2025.

The last post of his dad's Weibo, posted by LGY on his behalf
https://weibo.com/3902217201/P84eYoK3S
LGY's future goal
https://weibo.com/2575736391/PbkW15c0a

回饋球迷/全力突破自己不留遺憾 (Give back to fans/Strive to break through himself without any regrets)
http://www.takungpao.com.hk/life/238149/2025/0211/1058553.html

 

[NextLevel]

Tongtong can't attack to save her life, too focused on stability, God knows if she'd ever win a Champions event.

.
She tightened up over the last few points, don't think stability had as much to do with it as that the risks she took didn't pan out. The only point I really faulted her for in that stretch was not pivoting on the Wang Yidi long serve, but that might just have been that she misjudged the length.

 

[NextLevel]

Leaving this video here for anyone who is curious to see how this plays out in real life. Serve receive and over the table game clinic. If anyone has seen prime FZD get suffocated in this manner before I would love to see it - only a few matches come to mind.

The point is true for Franziska as well. The Chinese are usually confident that if they get the short push in, they get the first attack. Xu Xin was surprised that Franziska could re-drop the short push. And of course, his over the table openers are legendary.

One of my high level coach friends likes to put an asterisk next to the Ma Long win of Franziska (it came after Ma Long went deep in a prior event and couldn't adjust to the change in balls/table/venue at the next event), but a win is a win, and it takes some luck to win against better players. Explanations don't change reality, and it takes something special to also have wins against Fan Zhendong and Xu Xin.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

The point is true for Franziska as well. The Chinese are usually confident that if they get the short push in, they get the first attack. Xu Xin was surprised that Franziska could re-drop the short push. And of course, his over the table openers are legendary.

One of my high level coach friends likes to put an asterisk next to the Ma Long win of Franziska (it came after Ma Long went deep in a prior event and couldn't adjust to the change in balls/table/venue at the next event), but a win is a win, and it takes some luck to win against better players. Explanations don't change reality, and it takes something special to also have wins against Fan Zhendong and Xu Xin.

Yep. I have friends who played Franziska and while obviously lower level than the top Chinese, they said he just takes away so many possibilities in the game right off the bat.

 

[zeio]

Leaving this video here for anyone who is curious to see how this plays out in real life. Serve receive and over the table game clinic. If anyone has seen prime FZD get suffocated in this manner before I would love to see it - only a few matches come to mind.

Aside from skills and tactics, he has adapted his game to the Bo5 format. I cited LSS as an example in 2024 and the stats still hold in 2025. Franziska is another one.

OTOH, Hayata lost in all 3 encounters against CXT after going down the wire every single time. Her win rate against the CNT is still the poorest compared to Hirano and Ito. Even Szocs matched Hirano in win rate against the CNT at one point.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/wtt-singapore-smash-2024-3-7-3-17.33147/post-447069

We've already seen that happen many times in the Paris 2024 cycle (2021/8/15-). Ni Xia Lian, Doo Hoi Kem, Yuan Jia Nan, Szocs, Hirano, Samara, Han Ying and Kihara have all benefited from the bo5 format. The "deviation" is even more pronounced for the men. LSS scored his first win against FZD after 14 straight losses, 13 of which happened before this cycle. LSS got a total of 3 games out of the first 12 matches (10/2013-11/2019) and in this cycle he's already gotten 5 games out of 4 matches (4-12/2023). The fact that Hayata is (still) not part of that club after 2.42 years could be an indication that the way she had played thus far did not maximize her good luck, as suggested in the paper.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Aside from skills and tactics, he has adapted his game to the Bo5 format. I cited LSS as an example in 2024 and the stats still hold in 2025. Franziska is another one.

OTOH, Hayata lost in all 3 encounters against CXT after going down the wire every single time. Her win rate against the CNT is still the poorest compared to Hirano and Ito. Even Szocs matched Hirano in win rate against the CNT at one point.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/wtt-singapore-smash-2024-3-7-3-17.33147/post-447069

Interesting tidbit. What's your take on his skills and tactics?

 

[zeio]

李尚洙真是一名方差极大的神奇球员 (Lee Sang Su is a magical player with a huge variance)
https://tieba.baidu.com/p/9617641719
贴吧用户_5AZ5NSA 他上限挺高，是现役唯一一个赢过赌龙胖蟒远的人（不知道有没有赢过坤坤？）12年还打马龙4：0，在世乒赛上更是赢过赌王和马龙，而且有21年亚锦赛单打金牌，亚洲杯亚运会单打铜牌，世锦赛铜牌，这成绩吊打同时期韩国其他人现在都快退役了还能赢刚拿了法国冠军的小勒
但是他菜的时候是真的菜，18年亚运会团体被高远打成业余，三局每局只拿到两三分。更是曾经被东哥连得24分
IP属地:北京来自Android客户端1楼2025-04-01 23:24回复
(He has a high ceiling. He is the only active player who has beaten Gambler, Long, Chubby, Boa [TL's note: XX], Yuan (I wonder if he has beaten Kunkun?). In 2012, he beat Ma Long 4-0 [TL's note: 4-1]. In the WTTC [2017 and 2024, respectively], he even beat King Gambler and Ma Long. He won the singles gold medal in the ATTC 2021, and the singles bronze medal in the Asian Cup [TL's note: doesn't appear he has won any] and Asian Games [2018], and the WTTC [2017] bronze medal. These results are far better than other KOR players of the same period. Now he is about to retire and can still beat Little Le[brun], who just won the French Championships. But when he is bad, he is really bad. In the team event of Asian Games 2018, he was beaten into an amateur by Gaoyuan, and only scored two or three points in each of the three games. He was even scored 24 straight points by Brother Dong.)

李尚洙说自己决赛右臂状态不好 (Lee Sang Su said his right arm was not in good condition in the final)
https://tieba.baidu.com/p/9628676399

And some more Tieba comments on LSS from 2024:
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...nted-lee-sang-soo-to-retire.33051/post-447356

 

[zeio]

Interesting tidbit. What's your take on his skills and tactics?

His game is one of the traditional KOR style that I've touched on multiple times and XX is of the same opinion.

LSS left an impression on me first when he became the first player ever to win an ITTF Pro Tour (known as World Tour from 2012 and on) by starting from qualification at Slovenia Open 2010. I still have his matches against Jens Lundqvist in SF and Zoltan Fejer-Konnerth in F from ITTV stored somewhere. IIRC, I left a message on the Chinese forum 乒乓家園/Table Tennis Homeland some time later about how LSS could pose some threats to the CNT. Beside JYS, around that time there were also Seo Hyun Deok and Kim Min Seok who looked promising.

 

[Shine]

We just have different parameters for how we assess players ability and also what tier they belong to.

Aside from skills and tactics, he has adapted his game to the Bo5 format. I cited LSS as an example in 2024 and the stats still hold in 2025. Franziska is another one.

OTOH, Hayata lost in all 3 encounters against CXT after going down the wire every single time. Her win rate against the CNT is still the poorest compared to Hirano and Ito. Even Szocs matched Hirano in win rate against the CNT at one point.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/wtt-singapore-smash-2024-3-7-3-17.33147/post-447069

Man, Hayata just can't catch a break man, 😂😂
That's tough.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

His game is one of the traditional KOR style that I've touched on multiple times and XX is of the same opinion.

LSS left an impression on me first when he became the first player ever to win an ITTF Pro Tour (known as World Tour from 2012 and on) by starting from qualification at Slovenia Open 2010. I still have his matches against Jens Lundqvist in SF and Zoltan Fejer-Konnerth in F from ITTV stored somewhere. IIRC, I left a message on the Chinese forum 乒乓家園/Table Tennis Homeland some time later about how LSS could pose some threats to the CNT. Beside JYS, around that time there were also Seo Hyun Deok and Kim Min Seok who looked promising.

Good to know that Timo Boll and Xu Xin are of the same opinion - maybe they need to hop on TTD to realize how clueless they are on this matter.

 

[NextLevel]

Good to know that Timo Boll and Xu Xin are of the same opinion - maybe they need to hop on TTD to realize how clueless they are on this matter.

The CNT is so efficient that people underestimate how good the people who even threaten them are.