United States Smash 2025, Las Vegas, 7/3-13

[NextLevel]

TTR
In principle, a player can't request TTR unless the umpire has made a call but somehow that was not the case for World Cup 2025, and needless to say, things got ugly and personal quickly.

In the end, Duda observed the rule (knowingly or not), lost the match, and earned respect.

Well it isn't the case here either or at the WTTC. So the rule is either being incorrectly enforced or players are allowed to challenge serves. Until there is a hard announcement, I will defer to the latter.

 

[NextLevel]

Darko just did it. I am sure he hates winning that way. What a lame way to beat Shinozuka the first time.

 

[zeio]

Despite losing here, a beat-up Shinozuka showed his quality again (staring at Togami).

MS R32
Jorgic (8) 3-2 Shinozuka (6, 8, -11, -16, 6)

 

[KostovTT]

Lilian Bardet confirms what I have always felt from the eye test - his forehand is special.

Does anybody know Lilian Bardet's racket setup?

 

[JJ Ng]

Darko just did it. I am sure he hates winning that way. What a lame way to beat Shinozuka the first time.

I attended the match live earlier today. I just stayed there from 6pm to 10:30pm so I don't have time to rewatch the match from WTT's YouTube channel or go to ESPN 3 since the match was held at table 1 in the Maverick arena.

So this is purely by memory. I recall Darko was leading in the third set and was going to win 3:0. But right in the middle of the set, the umpire faulted Darko for one of his serves (automatically rewarding the point to Shinozuka). Darko was clearly rattled. In the audience, a couple people yelled out for Darko to challenge that call with TTR. But Darko did not. That call literally changed the momentum because Darko ended up losing that game in deuce 11:13. If that service fault was not called, Darko basically had a very high chance to close the match 3:0.

Fourth set was tight. The deuce in that set just went back and forth, and back and forth. Finally it was 16:17 in favor of Shinozuka. Darko served and got faulted (again for his toss not being verticle). Automatically he lost 16:18. Everyone who is involved in sports (like table tennis, NBA or others) would find that situation very strange. Usually in the end of the game situation, referees would tend to swallow the whistle and let the players play out. It is upsetting for fans when an NBA game ends because a foul was called in the last 2.5 seconds and the free throw ends up determing the outcome. Or fans probably are not too happy if a foul was called late in the game and a team won the soccer/football game via a penalty kick. In this case, the umpire literally turned the tide toward Shinozuka, again and both sets won by Shinozuka were clearly by the service fault calls. At that point, a couple audiences also yelled out for Darko to use TTR challenge. Darko just stayed silent.

Fifth set, Darko started pulling away. At 6:9, with Darko leading, Shinozuka served. Darko immediately called for a TTR review and informed the umpire that he was challenging due to Shinozuka hiding the ball with his head. Mind you, the umpire did not call anything but Darko requested a TTR review (I did not know that players can do that; I thought the umpire has to make a service fault call and the server could ask for a challenge; in this case, the RECEIVER initiated the challenge. Earlier in the match, Shinozuka was warned for hiding the ball with his head already once. In this situation, Darko took the initiative and won the challenge which means Darko is now up 6:10 with a free point awarded. Darko then won the match point and finished the match.

In the post game interview, I don't think Darko was upset to win it in this manner. He even mentioned that he was faulted three points. And to me, if he had the right to challenge Shinozuka's serve (and Shinozuka's serve was already warned once by the umpire for hiding it with his head), he deserved the win. Darko was a good sportsman. He even mentioned that he could have won 3:0 (I know exactly what he meant). I felt that his tone might have been a bit sarcastic too; I believe in the post-match interview, even he mentioned he could have won 3:0. He also talked about how some players routinely hide the serve. I don't hear him even implying that he felt bad winning this way.

 

[JJ Ng]

It seems that not many SYS or WCQ fans from China presented during their matches. A bit weird.

Sun Yingsha vs Goda, the arena was only 5-10% full. Lots of empty seats. SYS's fans were cheering quite loud and came prepared with signs. In the big screen at the arena, the WTT camera kept on showing those fans holding up signs/banners with SYS' face on it. However, there was a section of the fans to the side of the player's entrance who periodically shout out Goda to hang in there. But every time those fans did that, SYS' fans would get louder and ask SYS to try harder (in Chinese of course). Both sets of fans eventually found the whole situation kind of funny so laughter and some giggles could be heard after these exchanges among the fans supporting both athletes. Overall, the atmosphere never got out of control and I think fans on both sides enjoyed the match very much.

I am not sure if any of these background noises were picked up on the live stream since I assume when you watch on YouTube or ESPN 3, there should be commentators talking and background noises/atmosphere might not have been picked up. I don't know.

 

[Metaxa]

I attended the match live earlier today. I just stayed there from 6pm to 10:30pm so I don't have time to rewatch the match from WTT's YouTube channel or go to ESPN 3 since the match was held at table 1 in the Maverick arena.

So this is purely by memory. I recall Darko was leading in the third set and was going to win 3:0. But right in the middle of the set, the umpire faulted Darko for one of his serves (automatically rewarding the point to Shinozuka). Darko was clearly rattled. In the audience, a couple people yelled out for Darko to challenge that call with TTR. But Darko did not. That call literally changed the momentum because Darko ended up losing that game in deuce 11:13. If that service fault was not called, Darko basically had a very high chance to close the match 3:0.

Fourth set was tight. The deuce in that set just went back and forth, and back and forth. Finally it was 16:17 in favor of Shinozuka. Darko served and got faulted (again for his toss not being verticle). Automatically he lost 16:18. Everyone who is involved in sports (like table tennis, NBA or others) would find that situation very strange. Usually in the end of the game situation, referees would tend to swallow the whistle and let the players play out. It is upsetting for fans when an NBA game ends because a foul was called in the last 2.5 seconds and the free throw ends up determing the outcome. Or fans probably are not too happy if a foul was called late in the game and a team won the soccer/football game via a penalty kick. In this case, the umpire literally turned the tide toward Shinozuka, again and both sets won by Shinozuka were clearly by the service fault calls. At that point, a couple audiences also yelled out for Darko to use TTR challenge. Darko just stayed silent.

Fifth set, Darko started pulling away. At 6:9, with Darko leading, Shinozuka served. Darko immediately called for a TTR review and informed the umpire that he was challenging due to Shinozuka hiding the ball with his head. Mind you, the umpire did not call anything but Darko requested a TTR review (I did not know that players can do that; I thought the umpire has to make a service fault call and the server could ask for a challenge; in this case, the RECEIVER initiated the challenge. Earlier in the match, Shinozuka was warned for hiding the ball with his head already once. In this situation, Darko took the initiative and won the challenge which means Darko is now up 6:10 with a free point awarded. Darko then won the match point and finished the match.

In the post game interview, I don't think Darko was upset to win it in this manner. He even mentioned that he was faulted three points. And to me, if he had the right to challenge Shinozuka's serve (and Shinozuka's serve was already warned once by the umpire for hiding it with his head), he deserved the win. Darko was a good sportsman. He even mentioned that he could have won 3:0 (I know exactly what he meant). I felt that his tone might have been a bit sarcastic too; I believe in the post-match interview, even he mentioned he could have won 3:0. He also talked about how some players routinely hide the serve. I don't hear him even implying that he felt bad winning this way.

I am particularly pleased because there are finally referees who dare to criticise players. The fact that a player now wants to challenge an opponent's serve can have advantages and disadvantages. Perhaps there is now a little bit of fear, so that players themselves will pay very close attention to serving according to the rules. I am still waiting for a referee who dares to give a warning for serving beyond the baseline and above the table, because that happens plenty the times

 

[JJ Ng]

I am particularly pleased because there are finally referees who dare to criticise players. The fact that a player now wants to challenge an opponent's serve can have advantages and disadvantages. Perhaps there is now a little bit of fear, so that players themselves will pay very close attention to serving according to the rules. I am still waiting for a referee who dares to give a warning for serving beyond the baseline and above the table, because that happens plenty the times

Agree. It is time for the umpires to call for service fault. If it goes both ways (both the umpire and the opposing player can challenge a serve using TTR), I think it is going to be good for the sport. Darko obviously could toss the ball vertical. It is just that he is used to toss it more to the side out of habit. Reading between the lines during the match and the post-match interview, Darko thought a few serves were kind of sketchy coming from Shinozuka and he chose to finally challenge it in the fifth set, being 9:6 up, I don't see a problem with it. If both players and the umpires work together to call out these illegal serves, then this sport might have a chance to put players on more equal footing.

 

[NextLevel]

I attended the match live earlier today. I just stayed there from 6pm to 10:30pm so I don't have time to rewatch the match from WTT's YouTube channel or go to ESPN 3 since the match was held at table 1 in the Maverick arena.

So this is purely by memory. I recall Darko was leading in the third set and was going to win 3:0. But right in the middle of the set, the umpire faulted Darko for one of his serves (automatically rewarding the point to Shinozuka). Darko was clearly rattled. In the audience, a couple people yelled out for Darko to challenge that call with TTR. But Darko did not. That call literally changed the momentum because Darko ended up losing that game in deuce 11:13. If that service fault was not called, Darko basically had a very high chance to close the match 3:0.

Fourth set was tight. The deuce in that set just went back and forth, and back and forth. Finally it was 16:17 in favor of Shinozuka. Darko served and got faulted (again for his toss not being verticle). Automatically he lost 16:18. Everyone who is involved in sports (like table tennis, NBA or others) would find that situation very strange. Usually in the end of the game situation, referees would tend to swallow the whistle and let the players play out. It is upsetting for fans when an NBA game ends because a foul was called in the last 2.5 seconds and the free throw ends up determing the outcome. Or fans probably are not too happy if a foul was called late in the game and a team won the soccer/football game via a penalty kick. In this case, the umpire literally turned the tide toward Shinozuka, again and both sets won by Shinozuka were clearly by the service fault calls. At that point, a couple audiences also yelled out for Darko to use TTR challenge. Darko just stayed silent.

Fifth set, Darko started pulling away. At 6:9, with Darko leading, Shinozuka served. Darko immediately called for a TTR review and informed the umpire that he was challenging due to Shinozuka hiding the ball with his head. Mind you, the umpire did not call anything but Darko requested a TTR review (I did not know that players can do that; I thought the umpire has to make a service fault call and the server could ask for a challenge; in this case, the RECEIVER initiated the challenge. Earlier in the match, Shinozuka was warned for hiding the ball with his head already once. In this situation, Darko took the initiative and won the challenge which means Darko is now up 6:10 with a free point awarded. Darko then won the match point and finished the match.

In the post game interview, I don't think Darko was upset to win it in this manner. He even mentioned that he was faulted three points. And to me, if he had the right to challenge Shinozuka's serve (and Shinozuka's serve was already warned once by the umpire for hiding it with his head), he deserved the win. Darko was a good sportsman. He even mentioned that he could have won 3:0 (I know exactly what he meant). I felt that his tone might have been a bit sarcastic too; I believe in the post-match interview, even he mentioned he could have won 3:0. He also talked about how some players routinely hide the serve. I don't hear him even implying that he felt bad winning this way.

@piligrim was arguing that Duda would not have been happy beating Wang Chuqin at the World Cup on a TTR call. This to me is pure nonsense, Duda just didn't realize he had the option. But I guess he believes it. I was speaking tongue in cheek about Darko.

 

[zeio]

He also talked about how some players routinely hide the serve.

LOL

达科场内采访drama (Drama in Darko's post-match interview)
https://tieba.baidu.com/p/9857470337
让让我怎么 阴阳裁判判我不判他，暗指双标。
魔法对轰局看似公平，实则。。。
IP属地:四川来自Android客户端1楼2025-07-09 13:24回复
(The Yin-Yang umpire called me but not him, implying double standards.
The magic duel seemed fair, but in fact...
[Images of Jorgic's wide toss and Shinozuka hiding the ball])

大登VS达科 (Hiroto vs Darko)
https://tieba.baidu.com/p/9857189564?pn=8
祝诩 大家都差不多 击球点看见就算了
IP属地:中国香港来自Android客户端216楼2025-07-09 13:09回复
(Everyone is about the same. I call it a day as long as the contact is visible
[Images of Jorgic hiding the ball])

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

we have top quality umpires

21K views · 90 reactions | Walther just takes a seat while the scoring is going wild 🙃 | 777tabletennis

Walther just takes a seat while the scoring is going wild 🙃.

www.facebook.com

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

Miu Hirano's coach, Zhang Cheng, posted commentary on the SYS vs. Hana Goda match:

微博

随时随地发现新鲜事！微博带你欣赏世界上每一个精彩瞬间，了解每一个幕后故事。分享你想表达的，让全世界都能听到你的心声！

m.weibo.cn

 

[backspacer]

The word on the street is that they originally had a venue (nice one) that was separate from Orleans for tables 2, 3 and 4, but it fell through last second and they had to pivot into the temporary tent.

Obviously not an ideal situation, but I would not be so quick to judge wtt/organizers because we don't know what happened with the original deal and how much of it was their fault vs the venue overbooking or taking a more lucrative event, etc. They DID plan on something more professional with better conditions than what we are seeing now so can't knock them there.

I guess good on them for not cancelling the whole thing last minute, but they should put a statement explaining the situation.

 

[Catenaccio]

Fourth set was tight. The deuce in that set just went back and forth, and back and forth. Finally it was 16:17 in favor of Shinozuka. Darko served and got faulted (again for his toss not being verticle). Automatically he lost 16:18...In this case, the umpire literally turned the tide toward Shinozuka, again and both sets won by Shinozuka were clearly by the service fault calls. At that point, a couple audiences also yelled out for Darko to use TTR challenge. Darko just stayed silent.

Just watched the highlights. Actually, Darko did challenge at 16:17 in G4, but it was not successful.

 

[NextLevel]

Just watched the highlights. Actually, Darko did challenge at 16:17 in G4, but it was not successful.

He challenged after getting faulted on his own serve. He did not challenge Shinozuka's serve, which is what @JJ Ng was discussing. Lots of players habitually hide serves with their head and don't get called on it and it is often tolerated by fellow players who either have their own serve issues or read spin broadly well and don't care. IMHO this has to stop. Paradoxically, Bardet drew the best serve return errors out of Walther when he served without hiding the ball.

 

[dingyibvs]

He challenged after getting faulted on his own serve. He did not challenge Shinozuka's serve, which is what @JJ Ng was discussing. Lots of players habitually hide serves with their head and don't get called on it and it is often tolerated by fellow players who either have their own serve issues or read spin broadly well and don't care. IMHO this has to stop. Paradoxically, Bardet drew the best serve return errors out of Walther when he served without hiding the ball.

Which is why the rules need to change IMO. Hiding the ball with the head is only relevant WCQ style when the contact point is hidden. The ball being hidden before contact is totally irrelevant. Hiding the racket before contact makes a much bigger impact in service deception.

 

[piligrim]

I think we spend too much time for discussing was ball hidden by head or not or other stuff relevant to serving. Before this service rule was implemented people played, nobody complained. If you lost then other player was better and not because you didn't use TTR. Just train more and get better player instead to measure how many centimeters was from ball to palm when your opponent serve

 

[NextLevel]

Which is why the rules need to change IMO. Hiding the ball with the head is only relevant WCQ style when the contact point is hidden. The ball being hidden before contact is totally irrelevant. Hiding the racket before contact makes a much bigger impact in service deception.

I actually disagree, unless the kinks on service calls are ironed out and technology that is accessible to players are used to make the calls. The rules were designed to make it hard to cheat and easier for umpires to make calls. You asking dor a return to the rules that require tech to enforce.

For example, they actually wanted the toss rule to be 3 inches but it was going to be hard to tell 3 inches. So to make it indisputable they made it 6 inches so that one had to toss and now we are having issues with backward tosses and exit angles. People are also using hand and ball separation which is very inaccurate and tends to disagree with electronic evaluation.

When the ball goes behind the body of the server, it is very distracting and there is no guarantee of visibility at contact from the perspective of the receiver because not just the head can be used to hide but the shoulder or arm as well. This makes it harder for the umpire to judge. The problem is that servers have refused to serve in front of the body and then umpires have refused to call the dubious serves behind the plane of the body so they have left enforcement without umpires in the stone ages, when literally if you enforced the rules, the serves should be a breeze to call from anywhere someone is sitting. That Miu Nagasaki doesn't get faulted just about every time she does her backward toss is amazing. These are easy calls to make if you focus on the fact that the serve is behind the body.

If most serve rules require only professional players with electronic review to enforce them, then we might as well get rid of them outside the professional sport IMHO. But that is my opinion.

 

[NextLevel]

I think we spend too much time for discussing was ball hidden by head or not or other stuff relevant to serving. Before this service rule was implemented people played, nobody complained. If you lost then other player was better and not because you didn't use TTR. Just train more and get better player instead to measure how many centimeters was from ball to palm when your opponent serve

The game was also much uglier and riddled with serve return errors. Go watch LGL vs Schlager in 1999 and honestly tell me you find that match watchable anf fascinating. It was a semifinal of a world championship.

If we want to go back to hidden serves and low tosses or even 6 inch tosses I am all for it because it is something amateurs can enforce and umpires without tech as well. The issues with serve enforcement are largely umpire laziness and not tech driven, if you understand the rules, they make it fairly easy to enforce legal serves if one is willing to enforce them. The players know the advantage of hiding serves and don't want to serve legally. What should really be happening is that TTR should be used to score umpires and the scores publicly released and umpires asked to explain their calls.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

if we talk about rules, they can make any rules they want,
provided they are able to enforce such rules
and it should be the responsibility of ITTF to enforce, not the players.