Two questions bordering the ethical approach to competitive table tennis

[yamagata]

I am going to play competitive for the first time in the swedish lowest league this fall. How should I approach these situations, considering that players judge themselves and it is not only about myself but my team:

1 Opponent does an illegal serve, such as if their nose hides the ball for a moment. Should I immediately call out and demand the point to myself?

2 I play somebody with very short reach. Can I serve super short backspin serve that is literally impossible to reach for the opponent? Ethics? Fair play? What do we do?

Consider also the scenario where above are the only points I will collect for myself, and I will do it to avoid a 3x0-11 defeat.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

A1: Only umpire can call out an illegal serve. But you can protest to the umpire in between play but not during active play. If no umpire then you can do what you like since there is no neutral third party oversight.

A2: You can do what you like as long as it does not breach the rule. Ethics and whatever, it is personal, that is, up to your own conscience.

 

[Yuomay]

I am going to play competitive for the first time in the swedish lowest league this fall. How should I approach these situations, considering that players judge themselves and it is not only about myself but my team:

1 Opponent does an illegal serve, such as if their nose hides the ball for a moment. Should I immediately call out and demand the point to myself?

2 I play somebody with very short reach. Can I serve super short backspin serve that is literally impossible to reach for the opponent? Ethics? Fair play? What do we do?

Consider also the scenario where above are the only points I will collect for myself, and I will do it to avoid a 3x0-11 defeat.

1. In my opinion for low level amateur games, the ball should be tossed (more or less vertically) and be visible at contact. However, In local leagues that I know of, a serve is almost always considered legal regardless.

2. No problem, if you can do short ghostserves consistently, you're not staying in the lowest league for long

 

[boretennis]

2 I play somebody with very short reach. Can I serve super short backspin serve that is literally impossible to reach for the opponent? Ethics? Fair play? What do we do?

isn't TT all about exploring & exploiting the weaknesses of the opponent and playing a ball the other can not return?

 

[ttarc]

I am going to play competitive for the first time in the swedish lowest league this fall. How should I approach these situations, considering that players judge themselves and it is not only about myself but my team:

1 Opponent does an illegal serve, such as if their nose hides the ball for a moment. Should I immediately call out and demand the point to myself?

2 I play somebody with very short reach. Can I serve super short backspin serve that is literally impossible to reach for the opponent? Ethics? Fair play? What do we do?

Consider also the scenario where above are the only points I will collect for myself, and I will do it to avoid a 3x0-11 defeat.

A1: Depends how these serves are handled generally. Usually (in Germany) no one calls these serves in the lower leagues because not very many do legal serves (e.g. let the ball fall instead of throwing it up) and a lot of older players continue to use serves from a time when these were legal. Sometimes an umpire (usually one of the players) might remind a player to throw the ball up but this is not common. I would simply ask players of your team/club how to handle these serves.

A2: Perfectly legal. When playing against a wheelchair player the rules are a bit different e.g. short serves that move forward to the receiver are allowed but serves that would return to the server or serves that leave the table on the left or right side are not allowed.

 

[Tyce]

isn't TT all about exploring & exploiting the weaknesses of the opponent and playing a ball the other can not return?

I draw the line at kids, unless they are pummeling me. Even wheelchair players often don't want to be treated any less.
But if I can make a grandpa run and duck, I will do so.

Illegal serves often depend on whether they have an actual advantage. If they're easy, I won't bother. If they're hard even if they do it correctly, I won't really bother either.

 

[boretennis]

regarding unreachable short serves, i just remembered the Para Showcase Finals at the US Smash, this was a bit painful to watch...

https://www.yout-ube.com/live/bC61NzfwGbs?feature=shared&t=13072

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

But if I can make a grandpa run and duck, I will do so.

lucky you
in our side of the world, it is normally the grandpa's making us run and duck

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

regarding unreachable short serves, i just remembered the Para Showcase Finals at the US Smash, this was a bit painful to watch...

https://www.yout-ube.com/live/bC61NzfwGbs?feature=shared&t=13072

this is terrible!!

 

[NetProphet]

I am going to play competitive for the first time in the swedish lowest league this fall. How should I approach these situations, considering that players judge themselves and it is not only about myself but my team:

1 Opponent does an illegal serve, such as if their nose hides the ball for a moment. Should I immediately call out and demand the point to myself?

2 I play somebody with very short reach. Can I serve super short backspin serve that is literally impossible to reach for the opponent? Ethics? Fair play? What do we do?

Consider also the scenario where above are the only points I will collect for myself, and I will do it to avoid a 3x0-11 defeat.

For 1, if it is persistent and it actually impacts your ability to return the serve then put your racket up and politely tell the server and score keeper or referee (or whoever is there) about it.
Don't ask for the point but ask if they can serve the point again without obscuring the ball.
A decent player will do so without issue. Anyone getting too offended by this and reacts badly actually deserves to be called for every one they do. In this scenario it depends how much you want to dig your heels in or if you just decide it's not worth it and let it go but most times you won't be the only player who has noticed their illegal service habit.

For 2, you can do that it you wish but the real question is how do you want to win and how do you want to play the game.
Personally I think it's a bit of a crappy way to play. The opponent (short or not) is there to compete too and they want to play match and have some fun, as do you I presume.
If your conscience tells you winning is all then do it I guess. If your conscience tells you to play and compete, learn, improve and have fun whether you win or lose, then don't do it.

 

[NetProphet]

regarding unreachable short serves, i just remembered the Para Showcase Finals at the US Smash, this was a bit painful to watch...

https://www.yout-ube.com/live/bC61NzfwGbs?feature=shared&t=13072

Yeah, that's pretty awful .
I personally find it cowardly and unsporting, although I understand there are other views on it.
You're there to play TT, come on, let's play. If Para sports are about exploiting peoples physical limitations then I have really misunderstood the point of the Para Olympics etc etc.
The Italian lad should be ashamed of himself.

 

[yamagata]

Thanks for answers. I will discuss it with my team members, but since I am new it is probably for the better to just observe and learn for some time. It would be very rude of me to start call out players that has done something for maybe 10-20-30 years already. But, it also depends. If I happen to play against somebody that constantly serves above the table I have to mention it.

The other one is tricky. Everyone has to learn to return the ghost serve sooner or later, so it could be good to use it, even against kids. But if it makes them cry? I think not...I couldn't bear it...and how will I know beforehand? Better to not use it, unless the kid uses it.

But for grandpa with stiff legs, I will probably try a few if it is my only chance to win. On the other hand, if I cannot win against grandpa with stiff legs I better serve normally and practice my rallying skills...

 

[jk1980]

You are worrying about stuff that will not be in your control anyways. In the lowest leagues yes most serves will be faulty, but not because the opponent learned how to hide the ball but rather by them not throwing the ball up at all and serving straight out of the hand. Its their own fault, because most likely they will not get as much spin like this.

If you are really capable of a ghost serve you should use it, but not only rely on it. The opponent would use any trick including mind tricks to make you lose, so treat them as a real opponent and try to win.

 

[jk1980]

But for grandpa with stiff legs, I will probably try a few if it is my only chance to win. On the other hand, if I cannot win against grandpa with stiff legs I better serve normally and practice my rallying skills...

You will find many grandpas with illegal/worn out rubbers that play like unpredictable anti rubbers. I had even one where the rubber was totally gone at the place where the thumb would rest on the forehand.

i had a guy give up in the third set after i played short serves wide into his backhand. he always tried to reach there and either did not get it or hurt his elbow on the corner of the table. I guess he had enough of it and gave up.

If i play against somebody with unpredictable equipment i am just as pissed off, but i suffer through it and dont give up. If they don't care about the rules and use odd rubbers and dont value sportsmanship to do proper serves, then i have no problem if they want to give up.

The good thing is, next time they will go with negative feelings into a match against you or even try to evade playing against you. Issue solved

 

[Tyce]

If I were in your position, I'd use the "naivety" to my advantage. Geezers will underestimate you and think you are just the next kid trying to play their conventional game. Don't grow cocky, but if you play a couple of good balls, let them think it was an accident. They will be surprised

 

[sebi]

1. Only call illegal serve if the ball is hidden on contact and you have trouble returning the ball because of it. If its only hidden while in the air i would never call it. I even think its a dumb rule. If the player can see the contact who cars if the trow is hidden for a second. Different story if the ball would be hidden always and you could only see the contact. ( i am getting sidetracked)
As NetProhet said ask for a redo not the point directly, most people I played against were fair and tried to hide the ball on their following serves.

2 I would use "normal" serves and only use the ghost serve as a last resort.

 

[jk1980]

If I were in your position, I'd use the "naivety" to my advantage. Geezers will underestimate you and think you are just the next kid trying to play their conventional game. Don't grow cocky, but if you play a couple of good balls, let them think it was an accident. They will be surprised

that is actually the way i do it. i always applaud the opponent on strong balls or if their ball goes out i tell them "wow, if that one would have hit the table i would not been able to reach it" to make them feel good.

 

[sebi]

I only do that on really good balls. I was once umpiring and our opponent hit a crazy hand switch and he did it two times. Crazy stuff.

 

[NextLevel]

Thanks for answers. I will discuss it with my team members, but since I am new it is probably for the better to just observe and learn for some time. It would be very rude of me to start call out players that has done something for maybe 10-20-30 years already. But, it also depends. If I happen to play against somebody that constantly serves above the table I have to mention it.

The other one is tricky. Everyone has to learn to return the ghost serve sooner or later, so it could be good to use it, even against kids. But if it makes them cry? I think not...I couldn't bear it...and how will I know beforehand? Better to not use it, unless the kid uses it.

But for grandpa with stiff legs, I will probably try a few if it is my only chance to win. On the other hand, if I cannot win against grandpa with stiff legs I better serve normally and practice my rallying skills...

The thing about league/team events is that even your individual decisions are about the team. If you are playing single matches outside a team structure like tournament or round robin, think for yourself whatever you are comfortable with. But if you are playing team competition, whatever the team desires is the priority, even when it conflicts with your personal feelings. The conflicts are rare, but don't give up points or take hasty decisions that you are comfortable with if they are ultimately disadvantaging the team - make sure the team is on the same page with such decisions.

 

[pingpongpaddy]

VERY UPSETTING..
I feel bad for both players
I hope that ittf can come up with some para specific rules to fix this.
Whenever I played against wheel chair players in tournaments there was a rule banning serves that went over the sidelines.
I think that additionally the serve should have to bounce not more than twice in the receivers court and exit over the end line.
please ITTF do something!