Viewership numbers

[RefereeNumber2]

Formula 1 and Drive to Survive is a great example of how marketing can dramatically increase the cultural appeal and fandom of a sport. No increase in drivers (i.e., amateur F1 players according to NL) required.

 

[NextLevel]

Sorry that I misunderstood your previous point about "speed" as referring to the speed of the ball making it hard to see rather than the speed/pace of play. At this point you can just keep narrowing it down to the all of the characteristics distinct to table tennis as reasons why it is hard to watch. But literally anything that makes a sport distinct could potentially be used to argue that it is difficult to watch. Weird scoring system -- hard to understand. Slow/lots of breaks -- boring and unengaging. Fast-paced -- too intense to follow.

Experienced players of every sport think that their sport of choice is especially challenging and subtle, and if you ask they can come up with myriad ways in which their sport is extremely difficult to master -- many of which a casual spectator wouldn't have even guessed existed. They could then easily conclude that a casual viewer simply couldn't appreciate or get any enjoyment out of watching their sport. Maybe I just don't have sufficient arrogance to believe table tennis is one that's actually too hard for a casual non-player to follow. Yes, it's fast, but many viewers could easily find that more exciting and thrilling -- just like it's easy to find people who think NFL, baseball, and golf are way too slow and boring to watch.

Many sports that are extremely popular have many weird characteristics that should in principle make them hard to watch/understand/follow, and yet they have legions of fans. Fans have the remarkable ability to learn about and become absorbed into a sport. Once they're hooked in, I seriously doubt "difficult to watch," is a significant barrier. Aren't there many Chinese (and more broadly, Asian) table tennis fans who barely or only just casually play the sport? Why isn't the speed of the game too hard for them to follow?

The real question is how initial entry to fandom happens in the first place. I strongly believe that for the large majority of sports fans, initial fandom has far more to do with cultural presence, storylines, stars, and drama, etc., than ease of watching or previous playing experience. Indeed, I'd argue that how easy you find it to understand/watch a sport, and whether you have seriously played that sport or not, is typically a downstream result caused by the social and cultural factors behind fandom rather than the other way around. We Western table tennis players are a small minority and are among the exceptions.

If marketing can turn tequila into something that people pay a lot of money for, it can turn sports into something people often watch on minimal interest. I think you are making an argument that while true confuses watching the sport as a fan with enjoying the sport. I am focused on people who watch the sport enjoying the sport. And I think for table tennis and many other sports, it requires engagement with the sport at a decent level. Women will always want to be around successful men, men will always want to be around beautiful women. But for most men and women who enjoy a sport intrinsically do so because they learned and played it (usually as children).

 

[RefereeNumber2]

If marketing can turn tequila into something that people pay a lot of money for, it can turn sports into something people often watch on minimal interest. I think you are making an argument that while true confuses watching the sport as a fan with enjoying the sport. I am focused on people who watch the sport enjoying the sport. And I think for table tennis and many other sports, it requires engagement with the sport at a decent level. Women will always want to be around successful men, men will always want to be around beautiful women. But for most men and women who enjoy a sport intrinsically do so because they learned and played it (usually as children).

Ok, that's a reasonable distinction to make. I'd remind you again my point is the one that actually addresses the topic of the thread, which is about viewership on social media clips. Furthermore, my argument proposes policies that the governing bodies of table tennis could follow to potentially raise more revenue -- a practical result which could be made to benefit players and expand the sport.

Your point is about the subjective experience of being a fan. It seems we may have different values when it comes to fandom and enjoyment, which is fine. But it does not seem relevant to the topic of this thread.

 

[NextLevel]

Ok, that's a reasonable distinction to make. I'd remind you again my point is the one that actually addresses the topic of the thread, which is about viewership on social media clips. Furthermore, my argument proposes policies that the governing bodies of table tennis could follow to potentially raise more revenue -- a practical result which could be made to benefit players and expand the sport.

Your point is about the subjective experience of being a fan. It seems we may have different values when it comes to fandom and enjoyment, which is fine. But it does not seem relevant to the topic of this thread.

Its very much so. In fact, WTT has largely tried to follow the path you have prescribed to making TT more popular. Given that even pickleball developed a large player base and then tried to turn that into something resembling a commercial tour, it is important to look at some of the reasons why table tennis is not functioning as a sport. And some of them lie in the nature of the gap between table tennis as a sport and table tennis as something that people love to do. Not all but some.

To put it another way, if USATT had a thriving member base closer to what USTA had, there would be much more money to spend on building the sport.

 

[RefereeNumber2]

Its very much so. In fact, WTT has largely tried to follow the path you have prescribed to making TT more popular. Given that even pickleball developed a large player base and then tried to turn that into something resembling a commercial tour, it is important to look at some of the reasons why table tennis is not functioning as a sport. And some of them lie in the nature of the gap between table tennis as a sport and table tennis as something that people love to do. Not all but some.

To put it another way, if USATT had a thriving member base closer to what USTA had, there would be much more money to spend on building the sport.

Pickleball has existed since 1965. The recent explosion of pickleball is almost entirely about big money investments and marketing in the last few years.

The USTA has ~680k individual members. A one-year USTA adult membership is $44 (there are also discounts for seniors and juniors are free). That totals less than $29 million in revenue. Total USTA revenue from the US Open in 2024 was $559.6 million, coming from TV rights, sponsorships and ticket sales -- all driven by fans of whom a small minority are actually USTA members. Big money comes from fans, not players. If the goal is to raise revenue, the only way growing the player base is better than marketing to grow the fanbase is if it is much, much cheaper to attract players. I strongly suspect it is actually the opposite -- marketing is scalable at much lower cost.

 

[NextLevel]

Pickleball has existed since 1965. The recent explosion of pickleball is almost entirely about big money investments and marketing in the last few years.

The USTA has ~680k individual members. A one-year USTA adult membership is $44 (there are also discounts for seniors and juniors are free). That totals less than $29 million in revenue. Total USTA revenue from the US Open in 2024 was $559.6 million, coming from TV rights, sponsorships and ticket sales -- all driven by fans of whom a small minority are actually USTA members. Big money comes from fans, not players. If the goal is to raise revenue, the only way growing the player base is better than marketing to grow the fanbase is if it is much, much cheaper to attract players. I strongly suspect it is actually the opposite -- marketing is scalable at much lower cost.

Okay. With pickleball, the marketing just made people start watching the sport and pros started playing tournaments. It had clothing to do with more players playing the sport and reporting positive experiences.

Its really interesting how things work when people look at the current year to make their arguments and not the full picture. USTA membership has actually declined. But what they have built was the legacy of having an association that had strong, due paying membership base that enabled them to support events even before TV deals became the rage. But by all means, continue to believe it is all about marketing to non-players because that is what drives popularity in mass media.

 

[NextLevel]

Pickleball is an expensive sport 😔

But that is a part of the reason why TT in the USA struggles. Players are largely unwilling to pay market value to support it. Pickleball players so far don't have that problem though they do have the advantage of being able to borrow public courts but that doesnt explain the religious use and hourly renting of badminton courts at facilities in my area.

 

[RefereeNumber2]

Pro pickleball doesn't have any leagues

I’ve learned a bit more about pickleball and wanted to provide some more context on this. Pickleball did have a major league, Major League Pickleball, that was in direct competition with the PPA Tour. The two entities agreed to a merger in early 2024.

PPA Tour and Major League Pickleball Close Merger

A game-changing merger is complete! Learn how the PPA Tour and MLP are uniting to reshape pro pickleball’s future—read now!

majorleaguepickleball.co

From the press announcement:
“More than 150 professional pickleball players – including the top ranked players in the world – have signed multi-year contracts with the new entity, with many of them set to participate in an expanded calendar that combines individual (PPA Tour) and team (MLP) events throughout the year. This will provide players, fans, and sponsors with the benefits of a streamlined schedule, and will make following the sport easier for both avid and casual fans. Combined annual player payouts under the new unified organization in 2024 are expected to increase by nearly 250%, compared to 2023, which will provide more players with the opportunity to approach the sport as a full-time career.”

The business folks in charge over in pickleball world are following the playbook.

 

[chandyrandy]

Something i'm very hopeful about which could greatly improve table tennis viewership is the vlogs and short videos being made by players. Iba, Walter and anders come to mind as the bigger ones. I think this marketing of personalities will help more matches have more consistent viewership simply because people like the players personality and are familiar with their story enough to want to root for them. I really hope more players make these home type videos, and not just big pros too. I love seeing aspiring or less strong pros like Australia's Hwan Bae or the USA's Nandan Naresh who make videos which aren't trying to teach you something but really sell themselves as people you want to follow. Whether its from crazy points or funny moments I think with a lucky hit in the internet algorithm table tennis engagement could blow up, especially if there is a wealth of content available to fans regardless of what type of fan they are (playing or just viewing).
Just wanted to put that take out there

 

[zeio]

And why isn't "Get the ball back onto the opponent's side of the table one more time than they do" an intuitive understanding that people can follow? I can virtually guarantee it would be easier for you to explain the action of a table tennis match than to explain how American football works to respective complete novices. It's hard to even take this seriously.

It's not that easy. I have first-hand experience with that. For every Olympics in recent memories, whenever table tennis gets airtime, I have to explain to the non-playing friends who just can't wrap their heads around that concept, yet have no problem getting the gist of soccer perfectly. To them, "getting the ball across the net on the other side of the table" is a much more abstract idea than "getting the ball in the net on the other side of the pitch". For one, they often have trouble understanding why a player loses a point when the other player fails to return the ball. It turns out they couldn't track the ball that went long over the table.

The clear "assignment" of offense and defense simply by the side in possession of the ball in many spectator sports is another crucial element that is lacking in table tennis. That's why offense-vs-defene matchups generally have an easier time to gain appreciation as the "roles" are much more apparent to a layman.

If table tennis were that easy to explain, the OP would've taken up the quest readily. It takes time and comprehension of the sport to build a "profile" of a player's background. CNT coaches keep mentioning the latter in reviews of matches and interviews for a reason and that's why I have made it a habit to keep quoting myself in every damn post to make abundantly clear where I am coming from rather than an ass pull (other than the stray members asking for the sources whenever I don't cite them). Using Togami and Uda as an example, I started posting about them on TTD around 2018 and writing about them extensively starting 2021. How many here can boast that? So why do we expect the fangirls to understand the sport when that's totally missing the point? They aren't all that different from those EJs with their passion for equipment.

2020/7/6
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...ews-and-choice-of-equipment.23614/post-317032

Golf has the advantage of a stationary player swinging at a stationary ball aiming at a stationary hole. Players start out from a maximum field of play, which slowly shrinks with "checkpoints" as they work towards the end. Each club has a clear function.

Racket sports have a different objective - make the ball cross the net and reach the other side. Table tennis has it even worse than tennis and badminton. Players are essentially playing on a court(table) that is on another court(arena) - 2 totally different surfaces. Unless it gets damaged accidentally, throughout the match players are confined to 1 racket, which has to serve multiple functions.

Overall, table tennis equipment hasn't changed really all that much in the past 30 years, especially blades. Rubbers, more like sponges, have made some progress in the past decade, but still miles away from the vintage with speed glue. The basic principle still applies today. Once you know what fits yourself, stick with it. I know people who still play with setups from the '90s.

2021/2/3
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...d-what-we-know-from-science.24815/post-338481

I feel that comparisons among endurance sports would be more appropriate, like cycling, long distance running, marathon, triathlon, cross country skiing etc.

Table tennis is a reaction sport, contact-less, delicate and precise, requiring intense mental concentration and short burst of energy. It is unique even among racket sports where players essentially play on 2 surfaces. Because of this extra dimension/obstacle/variable, table tennis is perhaps one of the most politically-correct sports, in that a fat-ass could beat a 6-pack, a punk could cream an adult, an old fart could outsmart a young gun, a female could subdue a male, but I digress.

I just wanted to add that the actual dwell time and the perceptual dwell time are connected and the former determines the vibrations of the racket(blade+rubbers) that get transmitted to the fingers and hand through the handle and blade head.

2024/12/25 quoting 2018/1/14 (days after my joining TTD)
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/zhang-jike-signs-with-donic.36144/post-500059
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/t2-and-ittf-join-forces.16871/post-217628
Wang Nan and Fukuhara couldn't compare in terms of craze. Most of the Chinese fans of those two played table tennis back then. The Chinese fangirls that ZJK attracted first during Rio 2016 are the real fandom that I wrote about in early 2018 when the ITTF and T2 joined forces. It didn't pan out as hoped in some aspects (like bickering and privacy issue, the former of which is to the benefits of WTT and not CNT) but the will to spend money for their idols is definitely much higher.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/t2-and-ittf-join-forces.16871/post-217628
Table tennis experienced a resurgence in China after Rio. Take the table tennis sub on Hupu, for instance. Most of the patrons are girls, not your average Janes, they're some of the most dedicated I've seen. Different from typical table tennis fans, they rarely focus on the usual topics like equipment and technique, instead discussions are more player- and competition-oriented. They have threads dedicated for many players where they follow their social lives...

Same for Japan, where table tennis has been booming after Rio. Media attention further exploded after Hirano's triple-kill at the ATTC 2017. You see comments on Yahoo news where people state they did't care about table tennis but started following after table tennis made the headlines...

That is the kind of audience the ITTF want to capture. People who don't play but may otherwise be interested in watching or following. Those girls remind me of how I got drawn to table tennis - Olympics coverage on TV. The school also happened to have two concrete tables. I dived right in with a shakehand hardbat in penhold grip. Got trashed by the inverted-yielding tyrants. Couldn't be noober, but I persevered. Didn't even know they were called hardbat and inverted until much later, much less about shakehand and penhold. There is this "nerdy" aura around table tennis that puts it in a bad light in mainstream media. T2APAC is a commendable initiative to introduce the laymen to the competitive nature of table tennis. They may not play it in the end, but the least you could hope for is get them to follow the sport.

 

[piligrim]

I don’t think the western world makes competitive table tennis accessible as compared to other sports, nor do they see any reason to get involved. Getting a good racket with decent enough speed and spin can cost hundreds of dollars, and then you still have to pay to get into table tennis clubs since outdoor table tennis tables won’t cut it. Buying your own table also costs hundreds of dollars of dollars. Coaching in the West is also expensive. You also rarely see professional table tennis products ever in major sports retailers like Sportchek, Dicks, etc.

Badminton rackets also cost hundreds of dollars, also need to pay to get to badminton club, impossible to play at home compare to TT, coaching also expensive same as TT

 

[joshmak10]

Badminton rackets also cost hundreds of dollars

In my opinion, I think you can get to a higher level with a cheap badminton racket than a cheap table tennis racket. It's also not like badminton viewership numbers are like soccer and basketball numbers in the Western world too.

 

[XpingpingpongpongX]

In the US, you would need to pay USATT annual fee to get an official rating right? I wonder how much money USATT makes and what efforts USATT tried to promote table tennis.

 

[Kopp]

Another hype sport. Give it a few years and people will pretend they never even played it 😂

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Something i'm very hopeful about which could greatly improve table tennis viewership is the vlogs and short videos being made by players. Iba, Walter and anders come to mind as the bigger ones. I think this marketing of personalities will help more matches have more consistent viewership simply because people like the players personality and are familiar with their story enough to want to root for them. I really hope more players make these home type videos, and not just big pros too. I love seeing aspiring or less strong pros like Australia's Hwan Bae or the USA's Nandan Naresh who make videos which aren't trying to teach you something but really sell themselves as people you want to follow. Whether its from crazy points or funny moments I think with a lucky hit in the internet algorithm table tennis engagement could blow up, especially if there is a wealth of content available to fans regardless of what type of fan they are (playing or just viewing).
Just wanted to put that take out there

I used to tell players to market themselves and create awareness and there are many free tools available.
later on, I have concluded that they either don't have the time or the knowledge to do it.

 

[NextLevel]

I used to tell players to market themselves and create awareness and there are many free tools available.
later on, I have concluded that they either don't have the time or the knowledge to do it.

You are their agent no? Its another opportunity for you....

 

[NextLevel]

Another hype sport. Give it a few years and people will pretend they never even played it 😂

Nah, the synergy with tennis is significant. There are backers. This sport is growing. Not going away as it has distinct advantages. There are even articles about other similar if not quite the same racket sports doing well all over the world like Padell.

 

[Dr Evil]

I used to tell players to market themselves and create awareness and there are many free tools available.
later on, I have concluded that they either don't have the time or the knowledge to do it.

It's a good idea but, as you observe, very few players are willing or able to do this well. To hire someone who can do it for them costs more money than players are making, but it would be a reasonable investment for the WTT or the more well-financed leagues. Identify potential stars and get professional marketers to hype them up. With that table tennis movie, Marty Supreme, coming out this Christmas, now is a good time to do it.

 

[Kopp]

Nah, the synergy with tennis is significant. There are backers. This sport is growing. Not going away as it has distinct advantages. There are even articles about other similar if not quite the same racket sports doing well all over the world like Padell.

Who even watches pickleball on TV? Tennis, sure... but pickleball?

 

[boretennis]

i told my wife about this thread and she said she would divorce me if i would start to play pickleball. it's called paddle here, and apparently many of the worst male tinder profiles have "red wine & paddle" listed as their hobbies. instant red flag i've heard.