What makes more difference - rubbers or blades

[Tyce]

It is hilarious to me that this is even a discussion. I invite anyone who thinks the blade plays a bigger role to build two rackets:
1) premade blade with Dignics/Hurricane or their rubber of choice
2) their favorite blade but with premade racket rubber

Yeah but that's not what happened here, the choice is either a super highend rubber (Z03) or something crappy...

and play matches with each one and compare the results. Guess what, it's going to be racket 1 that is much more playable.

My guess would be the crappy rubber wins by making a lot less unforced errors.

So what is the criterium here?
- a racket that feels nice?
- a racket that makes your hard shots go BRRR
- a racket that makes you play super topspins
- or a racket that puts the ball on the table every single time?
Going by the OP, this is about what feels good, not about what is suitable or gives good results (and what the definition of good results is, points or lots of spin and speed)

 

[Grumms]

It is hilarious to me that this is even a discussion. I invite anyone who thinks the blade plays a bigger role to build two rackets:
1) premade blade with Dignics/Hurricane or their rubber of choice
2) their favorite blade but with premade racket rubber

and play matches with each one and compare the results. Guess what, it's going to be racket 1 that is much more playable.

It's hilarious that you find it hilarious. 2 same blades, same brand, same model, can be more different in feeling, frequency and weight than 2 different blades of 2 different brands.

"Premade" does not mean anything. Gimme my blade with 3$ rubbers like Mercury 2 and I will have almost the same results than know, more or less 10% tolerance. Gimme my current rubbers with a very different blade and I'll feel the ball so differently that I would play totally differently, and worse.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

It's hilarious that you find it hilarious. 2 same blades, same brand, same model, can be more different in feeling, frequency and weight than 2 different blades of 2 different brands.

"Premade" does not mean anything. Gimme my blade with 3$ rubbers like Mercury 2 and I will have almost the same results than know, more or less 10% tolerance. Gimme my current rubbers with a very different blade and I'll feel the ball so differently that I would play totally differently, and worse.

So is Mercury 2 "crappy" or just cheap? If a "crappy" rubber only changes your level no more than 10%...

 

[NextLevel]

You get better performance out of a Glazyer 09C with a good blade then you will out of a Dig 09C on a dead blade.

While the rubbers are not that far apart, I would struggle to think of any commerciap blade that would reduce the performance of D09c significantly. Obviously, there is a blend of rubber and balde characteristics, but rubber is clearly the reason why we play how we play, it is easier to play high level TT well with a cheap blade than to play well with a cheap rubber.

 

[NextLevel]

Then all beginners should use the fastest blade possible? Because they can’t get any effect from the blade?

it’s Interesting which way to go when a total beginner starts playing regarding choice of blade / rubber.
Because they have no experience of what’s fast, what’s slow what’s spinny what isn’t etc, then choice of equipment sort of becomes redundant. ( it doesn’t but could ) They would just except the fastest and most spinny blade / rubber combo as the norm and learn to play.
Would it take them longer to reach the point where they can hit thru the rubber/sponge and engage the blade? Compared to a beginner that moves up gradually through the different grades of equipment?

@IB66, A lot of people post stuff that hints at a low playing level without really having to explicitly admit it. Anyone who with a straight face thinks that the game we play today is determined more by blade technology than by rubber technology is a really not a serious player. Obviously blade can be important when rubber quality is fairly equal, but our game is dominated by rubbers much more than blades. Not even a serious argument.

 

[NextLevel]

I think it really just depends on skill level.

At beginner level, you’re almost nowhere hitting hard enough or accurate enough for the blade to matter too much. So it would be rubbers.

At intermediate level, I think this goes up, looping, and drives start having more solid contact with the blade but it’s still primarily rubbers.

At advanced, I think this is where it sort of equalizes. You’re hitting through your rubbers consistently in offensive settings. The difference in speed, hardness, feeling differs greatly. The difference between an allwood, alc and super zlc, etc. Varies your shots dramatically on those aggressive shots, and even your touch game. This is where it becomes 50/50.

At pro level, I think this is where it really comes down to the blade. A lot of pros choose their blade at advanced stage and stick with it and that variant for life. Primarily because it does exactly or close enough to what they want. I’d go as far to say, 70% to 30% importance.

I’ll even give an example,

Wang Chuqin actually started to dramatically see more success when he changed from the Viscaria to the W968. He had much more control. This is just a difference enough in outer vs inner and two different brands.

Obviously for other playing styles other than offensive, rubbers matter more. Long pips, anti spin, etc.

These are variability experiments: if Wang changed his rubber from Hurricane to Dignics or changed his blade from Viscaria to W968, which would have had more impact on his game? That is the proper framing of the question. Of course anyone can play better or worse by changing equipment, but the reason the blade could make a difference was because the rubbers did not change that much. If I keep my rubbers the same, I can play reasonably well with multiple blades. In the other direction, it can become trickier if we are dealing with low grip and tension vs high grip and tension. Cheap blades can still play decently fast if they have sufficient stiffness and rebound. Cheap rubber, only if they have high grip and are boosted.

 

[NextLevel]

Maybe, but why did he change his blades more than the rubber? Obviously, it appears the change of blade was making a difference not the rubber.

Because the rubber contribution was too large for him to mess with. Tinkering slightly with the blade was much easier.

 

[Grumms]

So is Mercury 2 "crappy" or just cheap? If a "crappy" rubber only changes your level no more than 10%...

Crappy commercial rubbers does not exist. If someone plays with anti spin rubbers, he will find Zyre03 crappy. For me, the best anti spin would be crappy compared to the worst grippy rubber.

People test way more rubbers than they test blade. Mostly because blades are more expensive. But still. And you can see tons of players saying, test after tests "This one is better. Oh, but this other one is even better. But finally, this last one is the best", and 10 times in a row. And finally, their level has not improved, or not the tenth of what the were pretending testing the new rubber.

I saw people reviewing Zyre (but Zyre is not the important thing here, it's the same with other rubbers) stating "It improves ALL my skills drastically". Ok, then you should easily win 200 points. If only one of my skill improved drastically, whatever the mean (new racquet, new shoes, new shirt), why could not I win 100 point easily ? But guess what, they won't win 200 points. And their skills did not improve drastically.

Finally, you read hundreds of reviews from people testing dozens of rubbers, stating big improvement between some of them. If those improvements were as huge as it's stated, it would reflect on the level of players. I myself tested what, 50 rubbers in 18 months, and yet I felt that none of them provided a huge improvement. Some differences are sometimes "important" but they are not good or bad. Like the arc, it's dependant on the player's technique and taste, there is no good or bad arc, it's not like spin. You understand what I mean ? The real "quality" differences are very very few.

If you take the worst blade possible, let say a 1 play of 1mm of pine for instance, how do you think the best rubber would perform on that ?

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Crappy commercial rubbers does not exist. If someone plays with anti spin rubbers, he will find Zyre03 crappy. For me, the best anti spin would be crappy compared to the worst grippy rubber.

People test way more rubbers than they test blade. Mostly because blades are more expensive. But still. And you can see tons of players saying, test after tests "This one is better. Oh, but this other one is even better. But finally, this last one is the best", and 10 times in a row. And finally, their level has not improved, or not the tenth of what the were pretending testing the new rubber.

I saw people reviewing Zyre (but Zyre is not the important thing here, it's the same with other rubbers) stating "It improves ALL my skills drastically". Ok, then you should easily win 200 points. If only one of my skill improved drastically, whatever the mean (new racquet, new shoes, new shirt), why could not I win 100 point easily ? But guess what, they won't win 200 points. And their skills did not improve drastically.

Finally, you read hundreds of reviews from people testing dozens of rubbers, stating big improvement between some of them. If those improvements were as huge as it's stated, it would reflect on the level of players. I myself tested what, 50 rubbers in 18 months, and yet I felt that none of them provided a huge improvement. Some differences are sometimes "important" but they are not good or bad. Like the arc, it's dependant on the player's technique and taste, there is no good or bad arc, it's not like spin. You understand what I mean ? The real "quality" differences are very very few.

If you take the worst blade possible, let say a 1 play of 1mm of pine for instance, how do you think the best rubber would perform on that ?

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here. Because people on the internet test a bunch of rubbers and don't improve drastically, that means that blades matter more? So you frequently see people who EJ blades but not rubbers suddenly have drastic, verifiable and permanent improvements in their games?

 

[ThePongCommenter]

@IB66, A lot of people post stuff that hints at a low playing level without really having to explicitly admit it. Anyone who with a straight face thinks that the game we play today is determined more by blade technology than by rubber technology is a really not a serious player. Obviously blade can be important when rubber quality is fairly equal, but our game is dominated by rubbers much more than blades. Not even a serious argument.

When you talk to high level players who are not EJs, one will find that they rarely are able to tell you much more beyond whether their blade is ALC or ZLC, and they probably wouldn't be able to clearly explain differences between the two. In many cases they won't even know if their blade is inner or outer carbon. And they sure as hell won't be able to get into discussions about the types of wood and the effects of that.

But, they will always be able to speak in detail about whether they prefer tacky/non-tacky/hybrid, what type of sponge hardness they prefer, the trajectory and catapult properties, and what aspects of their rubber made them choose it.

It's not a mystery why.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

A blade technology and structure that was released 30 years ago is still one of the favorites and most viable choices among both amateur and professional players.

Can we say the same for any rubber?

 

[NextLevel]

Crappy commercial rubbers does not exist. If someone plays with anti spin rubbers, he will find Zyre03 crappy. For me, the best anti spin would be crappy compared to the worst grippy rubber.

People test way more rubbers than they test blade. Mostly because blades are more expensive. But still. And you can see tons of players saying, test after tests "This one is better. Oh, but this other one is even better. But finally, this last one is the best", and 10 times in a row. And finally, their level has not improved, or not the tenth of what the were pretending testing the new rubber.

I saw people reviewing Zyre (but Zyre is not the important thing here, it's the same with other rubbers) stating "It improves ALL my skills drastically". Ok, then you should easily win 200 points. If only one of my skill improved drastically, whatever the mean (new racquet, new shoes, new shirt), why could not I win 100 point easily ? But guess what, they won't win 200 points. And their skills did not improve drastically.

Finally, you read hundreds of reviews from people testing dozens of rubbers, stating big improvement between some of them. If those improvements were as huge as it's stated, it would reflect on the level of players. I myself tested what, 50 rubbers in 18 months, and yet I felt that none of them provided a huge improvement. Some differences are sometimes "important" but they are not good or bad. Like the arc, it's dependant on the player's technique and taste, there is no good or bad arc, it's not like spin. You understand what I mean ? The real "quality" differences are very very few.

If you take the worst blade possible, let say a 1 play of 1mm of pine for instance, how do you think the best rubber would perform on that ?

Hopefully, you will come to Germany next year so I can see the player who is sharing all this wisdom.

The primary reason the game looks the way it does today is because of rubber technology. Not blade technology. This is easy to prove/demonstrate. If you took away all the composite blades and left all the modern rubbers, the game would largely look the same. If you took away all the modern rubbers and left all the rocket blades, the game would very different. It would be more like hard bat.

 

[RefereeNumber2]

I would like to see a competition between two players, A and B, of a similar level, with the condition:

Player A gets to pick any commercially available rubbers (they don't have to be the same) for himself and his opponent, while Player B gets to pick any commercially available blades (again, they don't have to be the same) for himself and his opponent.

Even if we exclude pips and anti from the equation, Player A is going to take Player B to the woodshed if they are of any decent playing level or better.

 

[belllfador]

I would like to see a competition between two players, A and B, of a similar level, with the condition:

Player A gets to pick any commercially available rubbers (they don't have to be the same) for himself and his opponent, while Player B gets to pick any commercially available blades (again, they don't have to be the same) for himself and his opponent.

Even if we exclude pips and anti from the equation, Player A is going to take Player B to the woodshed if they are of any decent playing level or better.

Golden Viscaria with anti rubbers vs 1ply ayous with T05. Will be epic to watch.

 

[IB66]

Because the rubber contribution was too large for him to mess with. Tinkering slightly with the blade was much easier.

When using the ‘best’ rubber DHS have, there was no where else to go. Over time the blades were upgraded.

 

[IB66]

The coaching sessions that we run have a very mixed standard of players. From TOTAL beginners to advanced players.
When coaching a total beginner we usually have to supply a bat for them to use.
with beginners, we show them grip, ready position, the basics etc. I like to get them to just bounce a ball on the bat, trying to keep control of the ball.
I could give them an all wood, or ALC inner / outer blade etc, with tacky, hybrid or grippy rubber with varying sponge hardnesses.
Regardless of the blade the results are always the same, regarding how easily they control the ball.
Hardest to control - soft or medium sponge Euro / Jap grippy rubbers. bouncy sponges react to the slightest movement.
Easiest to control - Tacky Chinese type rubbers with hard sponge - little bounce.

This is just an observation of what happens, bouncing the ball also gives very good feedback on the persons hand eye co-ordination, feel, etc You also get an idea of who is going to be ‘better’ initially.

 

[NextLevel]

Golden Viscaria with anti rubbers vs 1ply ayous with T05. Will be epic to watch.

The anti player has to be a chopper to have a chance. T05 will spin on cardboard box...

 

[netdriver]

blade more important

 

[John_]

At our level it's the rubbers. If you can't consistently and at all times hit through the ball, that 90+% of low level players can't do, blades are placebo. Weight and balance are far more important. That is confirmed when you see idiots like me saying that the viscaria is a fine blade for their playstyle, no, the weight and balance is, not the composition.

 

[songdavid98]

and it's not even close.

I don't think they've used a Walmart racket like this example.
Or this $10 mini racket.

I can literally rip off the rubber and put on a real rubber and it becomes playable.

And I can take the Walmart racket rubber to put on Viscaria and it becomes hardbat.