Why is this forum so obsessed with the Japanese women's team?

[ThePongCommenter]

The argument has limits - someone created a league where women played in bikinis - not sure the league is still on youtube but it didn't get a lot of views. But I suspect someone got it banned after a while. Or it is still there but dead.

We've already agreed that being a reasonably high level table tennis player is required for what we are discussing - we are discussing what differentiates popularity among good table tennis players. The players in the bikini league were not good, nor was that league nearly as publicly known as the players we are talking about.

I have a friend who compulsively is uninterested in men's TT and I know he doesn't watch the women because of sexual attraction - he just finds their overall game more attractive and relatable. He is the kind of guy who would ask what chance Sato and Hashimoto have of making the Olympics or when Choi Hyojoo or Mima Ito are playing. He isn't Asian and doesn't date Asians. But he can find out when his favorite players are playing. He likes to play with short pips on backhand.

No doubt there are men who are interested in the women's game for reasons purely unrelated to their gender. Whether that means it is ridiculous to suggest that the penchant for Japanese women just might be related to the fact that most of them are generally attractive is up for debate. Side note, many of the JNTW are in romantic/sexual relationships of varying degrees of seriousness but not sure how publicly that is known - the misconception that they are "available" could contribute.

There is a reason why East Asian female celebrities go to great lengths to hide their romantic partners from the public eye. While there is no doubt that some men exist that like Korean KPop bands because of their music it would be ridiculous to suggest that their attractiveness isn't a big driving force broadly in why people go to their concerts, follow their careers, and form their online fan clubs.

Sexual attraction is always a potential factor in dealings between men and women. Now, a video on youtube designed to attract views is very different from a fandom committed to following the failures and successes of players over years. Don't want to delve into that too seriously, but you get the drift. So I get the Bobrow comparison but I think it has limitations compared to what we are discussing here.

Fair point - what I was getting at is that Bobrow knows what the internet eats up, and I doubt this forum is a wildly different group of people than the people consuming Bobrow videos

That said, lots of men are fans of Hollywood stars, pop singers etc. Nothing wrong with that and that dimension is accepted. But it would be a disservice to a guy who actually knows the lyrics of the songs and likes the music to say that the core of his fandom for someone like Adele is because he finds her attractive. That's how I feel when I hear about this being the focus. Is Adele attractive, for some/many, sure. Might that influence how someone finds or follows her music, yes. But if I am singing the lyrics of Skyfall, is it because I find her attractive and want to watch her videos?

When it is described as an "obsession" with Adele, that is the unfortunate result.

Yeah never meant to say that someone can't have a fandom for a celebrity for less than pure reasons. Singing the lyrics of Skyfall is one thing... if a website very visibly had years of commentary and tracking of Adele and her health, her future plans, her current prospects, gossip about her, and the like...does the word "obsession" become that unreasonable?

 

[pong99]

Almost every sport manipulates women. Just look at the dress codes, they know if women dressed modestly, no one would watch. The truth is, most of the audience for women's sports are men, not women. It's pure hypocrisy.

In what sports are the dress codes meaningfully different from men versus women?

Female tennis players can wear leggings, golfers can wear pants.

Maybe you could argue figure skating. Guess why when the Olympics are on TV this sport is aired in prime time. It's not because of men watching. TV executives know figure skating draws lots of female viewers.

Female gymnasts and track and field competitors are allowed to wear full body coverings if they choose. In swimming and diving the women are more covered up than the men.. Just like figure skating, these draw huge female audiences for the Olympics.

In beach volleyball, women are allowed to wear full body suits if they want. You see this when the weather is cold.

Muslim women are allowed to wear head coverings

Most of the viewers of female golf, basketball, and soccer in the US are women.

 

[Tyce]

Almost every sport manipulates women. Just look at the dress codes, they know if women dressed modestly, no one would watch. The truth is, most of the audience for women's sports are men, not women. It's pure hypocrisy.

Most of the audience for all sports is men. How is it hypocritical that this also goes for women's sports?
Also, have you seen the skintight shirts in men's soccer? Cycling? Speed skating? How speedos cover much less of a man's body than swimsuits for women (in sports of course)

If anything is hypocritical, it's that men can dress that revealing but women can't, and if they do it's supposedly always about objectification, not about better performance, or just plain preference.
Have you ever asked one of these so-called objectified pro athletes how they feel about their garments? Deciding for them that it is sexual and objectifying is just as toxic as the supposed objectification itself.

It's completely fair to be mad about actual, toxic, unwanted objectification. But to assume everyone does it, as well as assuming there's no way to dress lightly and actually liking it, is just projection of one's own values and fears.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Have you ever asked one of these so-called objectified pro athletes how they feel about their garments? Deciding for them that it is sexual and objectifying is just as toxic as the supposed objectification itself.

MLTT - women players are given sleeveless jerseys while men are not.

 

[NextLevel]

We've already agreed that being a reasonably high level table tennis player is required for what we are discussing - we are discussing what differentiates popularity among good table tennis players. The players in the bikini league were not good, nor was that league nearly as publicly known as the players we are talking about.


No doubt there are men who are interested in the women's game for reasons purely unrelated to their gender. Whether that means it is ridiculous to suggest that the penchant for Japanese women just might be related to the fact that most of them are generally attractive is up for debate. Side note, many of the JNTW are in romantic/sexual relationships of varying degrees of seriousness but not sure how publicly that is known - the misconception that they are "available" could contribute.

There is a reason why East Asian female celebrities go to great lengths to hide their romantic partners from the public eye. While there is no doubt that some men exist that like Korean KPop bands because of their music it would be ridiculous to suggest that their attractiveness isn't a big driving force broadly in why people go to their concerts, follow their careers, and form their online fan clubs.



Fair point - what I was getting at is that Bobrow knows what the internet eats up, and I doubt this forum is a wildly different group of people than the people consuming Bobrow videos


Yeah never meant to say that someone can't have a fandom for a celebrity for less than pure reasons. Singing the lyrics of Skyfall is one thing... if a website very visibly had years of commentary and tracking of Adele and her health, her future plans, her current prospects, gossip about her, and the like...does the word "obsession" become that unreasonable?

The "might be related" point is not disputed. I don't think sexual availability makes a big difference, I don't think the fact that a star is betrothed negatively affects their sexual attractiveness to others, both for men and women, sometimes it is quite the opposite, as we are sometimes programmed to want even more what seems unattainable to us. But I am not Asian so I won't speak on Asian culture. But I do understand human nature and while cultural norms can manifest human nature in various ways, the underlying drivers tend to be similar.

Most of the posts on the JNT are driven by a few enthusiastic members (maybe 10). If I was to run through all of them, one would find it hard to find any suggestion that two of the top 5 have any attraction to a JNT member (I am think of myself and zeio). Most of it is just TT fandom expressing itself as interest in the competitive and celebrity dynamics of the JNT. Some of it is passionate support for a few favorite players. Very little of it is fawning over the beauty of this or that player, not even accidentally. And the repetition of the subject matter is driven by a lot of success and a watching these girls evolve from young girls as juniors into senior players. Heck, even Kato Miyu who is now retired and an influencer had her issues brought up and discussed by zeio. If the CNT internal competitive dynamics were more accessible, I am sure there would be many similar threads about them.

Your point about obsession with Adele (or a superstar to put it generally) - it *might* make sense when applied to a single person, but does it really make sense when applied to a national team? Are fans of Manchester United obsessed with Manchester United when they do the things you describe? If I know the Chicago Bulls starters for the past 10 years and like to buy season tickets, is that an obsession? Maybe maybe not. But arguing it is defacto makes it sound creepy. Many people just do such things (men especially) when they are interested in a subject matter. Unfortunately, when the subject matter is a woman or group of women, then it becomes open to speculation as to what is driving it. And I Would struggle to describe the fandom of anyone on this forum as "

years of commentary and tracking of <whomever> and her health, her future plans, her current prospects, gossip about her, and the like...does the word "obsession" become that unreasonable?

Again, most of the posts are made by zeio. Most of the fan posts I would argue are some combination of pongfugrasshopper (T-league expert) and Catennacio (Japan resident) and maybe a few others I am not mentioning but who are general fans of women's TT. And the main point is that this interest evolved. Mima Ito started playing in 2014 on the big stages. Hayata was becoming a big thing in 2017. Hirano won the World Cup in 2016 in Philly (I saw that live) and then the WTTC bronze in 2017 and then could never get back to her form but played a prominent role. Then there are lots of girls looking up to those players trying to break through. Even the last women's team Olympics coach of South Korea who coached those girls would like a chance to go back and coach them together again. They are all celebrities on Japanese TV for their achievements. The team took on its own cultural status as a result of its achievements and watching the girls grow and the narratives change. Maybe the sex thing has meaning to others, but not much to me. I lived through it so I experienced the story differently. I still tell the story of how Zhu Yuling losing to Mima Ito probably cost her her spot on the Olympics team because of the insult it brought to a Chinese ambassador. Mima Ito and Hina Hayata achieved things that hadn't been done in Japanese TT for decades if ever. And their fans on a TT forum are mostly driven by sexual attraction?

Anyone who says that just came to the party at the end and put their own spin on it. I cannot blame them for doing so, but easy answers are not always the right ones.

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

Not sure if OP or ThePongCommenter are aware, but much of this interest originated during the Tokyo Olympic cycle from a thread created by @apacible:

Japan Women's Race to Tokyo 2020 Singles​

There was genuine interest in who would make the Japan Women's Olympic Team when the selection was based on world ranking so we would follow the players matches to where they would fall in the rankings. Additional interest was generated in the Paris cycle as it was based on a series of selection tournaments. Each cycle had a dominant leader (MIma Ito in Tokyo, Hina in Paris, and it appears it will be Miwa for LA) and 2 remaining mystery spots. I can tell you the interest and TTD community involvement for Tokyo was palpable. A number of folks spent a lot of time and effort researching and commenting on the players and calculating their rankings in a spreadsheet. Regrettably, the thread originally intended for this LA cycle has turned into a thread bashing one of the players for whatever reason. But thanks to @Catenaccio there's a Thread about Japanese Players which we can use to discuss. There's another worthy effort that supports the German women via a thread created by @backspacer

1. Bundesliga Women 2025/2026

In addition to it being interesting, a number of us enjoy supporting women's TT.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Not sure if OP or ThePongCommenter are aware, but much of this interest originated during the Tokyo Olympic cycle from a thread created by @apacible:

Japan Women's Race to Tokyo 2020 Singles​

There was genuine interest in who would make the Japan Women's Olympic Team when the selection was based on world ranking so we would follow the players matches to where they would fall in the rankings. Additional interest was generated in the Paris cycle as it was based on a series of selection tournaments. Each cycle had a dominant leader (MIma Ito in Tokyo, Hina in Paris, and it appears it will be Miwa for LA) and 2 remaining mystery spots. I can tell you the interest and TTD community involvement for Tokyo was palpable. A number of folks spent a lot of time and effort researching and commenting on the players and calculating their rankings in a spreadsheet. Regrettably, the thread originally intended for this LA cycle has turned into a thread bashing one of the players for whatever reason. But thanks to @Catenaccio there's a Thread about Japanese Players which we can use to discuss. There's another worthy effort that supports the German women via a thread created by @backspacer

1. Bundesliga Women 2025/2026

In addition to it being interesting, a number of us enjoy supporting women's TT.

Fair enough, I'm not well versed on the history of the forum, just what I see from time to time. No doubt that the topic seems to be the dominant one nowadays maybe because there are both vocal supporters and detractors now.

 

[Metaxa]

There are many sixty year old otakus ojisan in the TT world.

View attachment 38752
Ur welcome!

Put me in that select group too... I have to admit that MN is attractive, but apart from that, she is also a lefty, and as it happens, just about all left-handed people (women and men) always have an advantage with me.

 

[NextLevel]

Not sure if OP or ThePongCommenter are aware, but much of this interest originated during the Tokyo Olympic cycle from a thread created by @apacible:

Japan Women's Race to Tokyo 2020 Singles​

There was genuine interest in who would make the Japan Women's Olympic Team when the selection was based on world ranking so we would follow the players matches to where they would fall in the rankings. Additional interest was generated in the Paris cycle as it was based on a series of selection tournaments. Each cycle had a dominant leader (MIma Ito in Tokyo, Hina in Paris, and it appears it will be Miwa for LA) and 2 remaining mystery spots. I can tell you the interest and TTD community involvement for Tokyo was palpable. A number of folks spent a lot of time and effort researching and commenting on the players and calculating their rankings in a spreadsheet. Regrettably, the thread originally intended for this LA cycle has turned into a thread bashing one of the players for whatever reason. But thanks to @Catenaccio there's a Thread about Japanese Players which we can use to discuss. There's another worthy effort that supports the German women via a thread created by @backspacer

1. Bundesliga Women 2025/2026

In addition to it being interesting, a number of us enjoy supporting women's TT.

@apacible ... @Vlad Celler.... @Tempest/Comet ... @Sali ... life changes ... I probably have been on this forum too long lol...

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

And when they talk about Bruna, it's 99% related to Hugo because they are a couple. It's another aspect of female sexual objectification: it has to be related to a phantasm, and it's better if it's with a man. Who remembers here all the BS some tennis womens took in their face because they made their coming out as a gay ? Amélie Mauresmo for example, then all those idiots started to say "I knew it, she's 100% a trans have you seen her muscles ?".
Wanna talk about Breanna Stewart ? Megan Rapinoe ? naaah, they're not sexy because they're ... lesbians.

This forum is really full of denial.

 

[Takkyu_ga_suki]

And while I know it doesn't matter to people who want to believe what they want to believe, there is nothing wrong with someone loving to watch a woman who plays a style of table tennis he finds beautiful.

Here's a vid of a woman in style, playing with style.

Seems like Ding Ning might have been handicapped with that outfit as opposed to Persson's.

 

[NextLevel]

Here's a vid of a woman in style, playing with style.

Seems like Ding Ning might have been handicapped with that outfit as opposed to Persson's.

That's what @Kopp means by "manipulation"...

 

[Takkyu_ga_suki]

That's what @Kopp means by "manipulation"...

Attractiveness and personality sell. Who knew?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

The truth is, most of the audience for women's sports are men, not women. It's pure hypocrisy.

and for CNT mens, the audiences are women

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

And when they talk about Bruna, it's 99% related to Hugo because they are a couple

Bruna was famous before the news of the power couple broke

 

[Kopp]

and for CNT mens, the audiences are women

I think you know why the opposite isn't the case. Just saying 😜

 

[Kopp]

That's what @Kopp means by "manipulation"...

Well, sort of 😂

Imagine if Ding Ning told the organisers she wanted to dress like Dina Meshref, even without the headscarf, do you think they’d still ask her to sign? Honestly.

Nothing against Dina though, she's gorgeous both before and after.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Well, sort of 😂

Imagine if Ding Ning told the organisers she wanted to dress like Dina Meshref, even without the headscarf, do you think they’d still ask her to sign? Honestly.

View attachment 38784

Nothing against Dina though, she's gorgeous both before and after.

most of CNT womens fans are also women

you should check Wang Nan fans, there was a CCTV video of her final match and just check how many womens rocked up!

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

what has Yui HAMAMOTO become ?

 

[NextLevel]

Not sure if OP or ThePongCommenter are aware, but much of this interest originated during the Tokyo Olympic cycle from a thread created by @apacible:

Japan Women's Race to Tokyo 2020 Singles​

There was genuine interest in who would make the Japan Women's Olympic Team when the selection was based on world ranking so we would follow the players matches to where they would fall in the rankings. Additional interest was generated in the Paris cycle as it was based on a series of selection tournaments. Each cycle had a dominant leader (MIma Ito in Tokyo, Hina in Paris, and it appears it will be Miwa for LA) and 2 remaining mystery spots. I can tell you the interest and TTD community involvement for Tokyo was palpable. A number of folks spent a lot of time and effort researching and commenting on the players and calculating their rankings in a spreadsheet. Regrettably, the thread originally intended for this LA cycle has turned into a thread bashing one of the players for whatever reason. But thanks to @Catenaccio there's a Thread about Japanese Players which we can use to discuss. There's another worthy effort that supports the German women via a thread created by @backspacer

1. Bundesliga Women 2025/2026

In addition to it being interesting, a number of us enjoy supporting women's TT.

To be fair to the unfair selection/bashing thread, part of the problem is that the JTTA has not announced a selection criteria and the ITTF/Olympics Committee has not announced a team composition and player qualification criteria. In the absence of that, people just do what they please...