Forums and freedom, and being capable of self criticism

[NextLevel]

we will miss Tony for sure regardless what he did

even if Tony is back (highly doubt it), i don't think the contribution will be the same

his connection/ contribution to the forum (some may question it) is the real next level we need

I miss Tony (definitely *all* of his apolitical posting).

I would like him back.

Since he might be discussing with people other than myself, I think unhappy members should be patient.

But for me, if we spoke, I know what I would say and I understand why if he doesn't want to speak.

But as long as I have no clue what underlies his perspective other than extreme dissatisfaction with being banned, it is outside my control. Usually, such things are handled by communication, and all my overtures have not been responded to. As I alluded to earlier, I hope he is speaking to someone, but if or if not, again, that is outside my control.

All I will continue to do is do what I can to facilitate the functioning and operations of the forum. That is what I have tried to do, that is what I have done and that is what I will continue to do.

What I do hope is that you have reached out to Tony, told him how you felt and encouraged him to come back. Though I would also understand (with disappointment) if you feel that the site is such that Tony should not come back.

What I am grateful for is that you are still here and you are expressing how you feel. That is ultimately the important thing. And if you are willing to encourage Tony to work out something with TTD, that is awesome as well.

 

[pingpongpaddy]

It's unbelievable that someone with thousands of contributions is banned without warning or consultation with other moderators, especially after a member had just been promoted to new moderator and after dozens of contributions from the removed member had suddenly been moved to the background or deleted. I really don't understand that. This strikes me as a blatant abuse of power because I didn't get the impression that Tony was at odds with many people here, except perhaps Zeio.

It is and remains a regrettable situation, a TT forum without the contributions of Tony, who had helped countless people here.

My condolences, forum!

IMHO
this is the crux of the problem:-
one of the underappreciated talents required for moderators is to be able balance the need to realise that winning the argument is far less important to the forum than having a moderator who maintains strict discipline without exception. On the other hand the members who have a genuine, well informed connection to the pro game are like gold dust for the forum.
Yet from NL's remarks he is oblivious to the harm done, or that he should have consulted before acting
hopefully Dan will have a better perspective on the matter.

 

[pingpongpaddy]

Absolutely, not possible to believe 😂

Does the number of posts really matter?
Different rules for people with 20,000 posts, 10,000 posts, 1,000 posts and 100 posts?
Looking at reputation, if NL has twice as many ping pong balls as Tony does that make him twice as important?
If so I guess any behavior is justified 🤷

He was warned

Yes, NL on one coast of the USA should wake up the other mods in NY, London and everywhere else in the world. Because this member is just THAT important 🙄

Should be given a break and some respect while adjusting to the role eh?
How about not having his balls broken (table tennis balls of course) by someone who won't show any respect to a mods attempts to moderate.

That has to be a choice because outright politics in TT discussion has always been a no go.

Another thing in a long list of things you have interpreted incorrectly.

That is Tony's choice.
Do you understand that?
It is a choice by Tony not to participate here.

The message to everyone is show some respect and discuss things in a measured and responsible manner.
Is that not the kind of forum this should be?

What I find unbelievable is that so many people cannot see who actually owns the forum. Hint, It's not Tony.
It's TT Daily.
And actual, real, ownership comes with actual real responsibility.
The moderators act on behalf of these owners who have made this forum possible for all of us.
Yet somehow (the thinking among some forum members seems to be) that certain members should be allowed to moderate themselves AND also moderate the mods!!! 😳

Absolute lunacy.

A swift apology by both the following morning would have fixed everything.
Your God was the one who didn't want that.

Netprophet
The job is not judging
its moderating!
that is achieving a result which will help the enterprise to continue and grow.

 

[NextLevel]

IMHO
this is the crux of the problem:-
one of the underappreciated talents required for moderators is to be able balance the need to realise that winning the argument is far less important to the forum than having a moderator who maintains strict discipline without exception. On the other hand the members who have a genuine, well informed connection to the pro game are like gold dust for the forum.
Yet from NL's remarks he is oblivious to the harm done, or that he should have consulted before
hopefully Dan will have a better perspective on the matter.

Having a genuine, well informed connection to the pro game is valuable to people, but for me, I have mostly hung around in TT circles for the community. Whether it is the players, the friends, the tournaments, the community for me is by far the most important thing. I suspect most of the people who are angry over Tony leaving think I hurt the community irreparably and I accept that, but everyone sees the community from their perspective and just as many including you see what I did from largely one perspective, there are others who see it differently and I don't think they are idiots. That said, I hope Dan's perspective will give you everything you want. IF there is a solution that gets users what they want, I will not be the barrier to its execution.

 

[NetProphet]

Netprophet
The job is not judging
its moderating!
that is achieving a result which will help the enterprise to continue and grow.

Does moderating require judgement?

We both know the answer to that is yes.

And so does responsible posting, that also requires judgement.

But you seem to think all the judgement is on one side here.
Clearly it's not.
Sure, a moderator judged that the (again) political rambling about China/Japan (bla bla bla Tony V Zeio x 1000 for 5 yrs now) wasn't necessary to discuss the tournament.
And judgement was made by the member that the political aspect was needed. And they judged themselves above the rules. And judged that they could just do whatever they liked without consequence. That political nonsense just HAD to be posted and damned if they were going to be told otherwise.

Look, if you've done the job before then maybe tell us how it should be done? Seriously, in not being facetious here.

Would you have got all the moderators online at the moment to take a vote?
Would you have caved and left all the posts up? Bowed to a bully because you were afraid they might not return?
It's already clear how ridiculous this becomes when one side won't bend.

The absolute narcissism to have someone post a website and email address the next day in case people here couldn't manage without him!
That should tell you something about the attitude that the mods are having to deal with.
Because any normal attitude would have seen all of this be smooth as silk the following day.

 

[NetProphet]

IMHO
this is the crux of the problem:-
one of the underappreciated talents required for moderators is to be able balance the need to realise that winning the argument is far less important to the forum than having a moderator who maintains strict discipline without exception. On the other hand the members who have a genuine, well informed connection to the pro game are like gold dust for the forum.
Yet from NL's remarks he is oblivious to the harm done, or that he should have consulted before acting
hopefully Dan will have a better perspective on the matter.

If the person in question is so important to the forum maybe they'll now set up their own one and it will be an absolute rip roaring success!!!

 

[pingpongpaddy]

Does moderating require judgement?

We both know the answer to that is yes.

And so does responsible posting, that also requires judgement.

My bad I should have been clearer.
I meant judging in the sense of applying strict laws and penalties
while moderating refers to a more pragmatic and harmonious approach

But you seem to think all the judgement is on one side here.
Clearly it's not.
Sure, a moderator judged that the (again) political rambling about China/Japan (bla bla bla Tony V Zeio x 1000 for 5 yrs now) wasn't necessary to discuss the tournament.
And judgement was made by the member that the political aspect was needed. And they judged themselves above the rules. And judged that they could just do whatever they liked without consequence. That political nonsense just HAD to be posted and damned if they were going to be told otherwise.

Look, if you've done the job before then maybe tell us how it should be done? Seriously, in not being facetious here.

Would you have got all the moderators online at the moment to take a vote?

I already suggested that or at least a discussion, However the current mods are perfectly capable

Would you have caved and left all the posts up? Bowed to a bully because you were afraid they might not return?

mods have a facility to temporarily hide disputed posts to allow them to be discussed before overt action is taken. This is a common procedure which helps to reduce tension. In such a case I would have wanted to do this in the first instance

It's already clear how ridiculous this becomes when one side won't bend.

The absolute narcissism to have someone post a website and email address the next day in case people here couldn't manage without him!
That should tell you something about the attitude that the mods are having to deal with.
Because any normal attitude would have seen all of this be smooth as silk the following day.

By the way you are expressing yourself rather aggressively and insultingly towards Tony.
have you got some personal score to settle? or, do you just enjoy drama?

 

[NextLevel]

Does moderating require judgement?

We both know the answer to that is yes.

And so does responsible posting, that also requires judgement.

But you seem to think all the judgement is on one side here.
Clearly it's not.
Sure, a moderator judged that the (again) political rambling about China/Japan (bla bla bla Tony V Zeio x 1000 for 5 yrs now) wasn't necessary to discuss the tournament.
And judgement was made by the member that the political aspect was needed. And they judged themselves above the rules. And judged that they could just do whatever they liked without consequence. That political nonsense just HAD to be posted and damned if they were going to be told otherwise.

Look, if you've done the job before then maybe tell us how it should be done? Seriously, in not being facetious here.

Would you have got all the moderators online at the moment to take a vote?
Would you have caved and left all the posts up? Bowed to a bully because you were afraid they might not return?
It's already clear how ridiculous this becomes when one side won't bend.

The absolute narcissism to have someone post a website and email address the next day in case people here couldn't manage without him!
That should tell you something about the attitude that the mods are having to deal with.
Because any normal attitude would have seen all of this be smooth as silk the following day.

@NetProphet:

I have broadly championed is respectful language towards all TT personalities and Tony qualifies, even as much as I disagree with his decision - he was not guilty of anything heinous, and some (in fact many have) would argue that his pride was defensible. Let's please keep it respectful, he had decided to leave the forum and gave his contact information which I am sure a lot of people used. Tony organized a lot of things, including charity projects given to individuals in nations having less. He used his powers for good on many occasions and largely did so, as much as I disagree again with his decisions in this particular situation. His popularity is a reflection of the value people gained from his presence. IT's okay to disagree with the broad basis of his popularity but there is absolutely no need to be gratuitously insulting over it. You make a lot of points that I would make if I felt rational arguments in defense of myself would make a difference so I am torn about giving the warning, but it is what the situation demands. Please be respectful.

 

[NetProphet]

My bad I should have been clearer.
I meant judging in the sense of applying strict laws and penalties
while moderating refers to a more pragmatic and harmonious approach

I already suggested that or at least a discussion, However the current mods are perfectly capable

mods have a facility to temporarily hide disputed posts to allow them to be discussed before overt action is taken. This is a common procedure which helps to reduce tension. In such a case I would have wanted to do this in the first instance


By the way you are expressing yourself rather aggressively and insultingly towards Tony.
have you got some personal score to settle? or, do you just enjoy drama?

Aggressively and insultingly toward Tony.
Really.
My first issue is the immature and disrespectful behavior and the split it has caused. My second issue is with anyone standing behind that and condoning that behavior.

So my issue is less with Tony and who he is or was prior to any of this even though we've had our differences, the biggest one incidentally being his extreme displeasure at me asking why he likes to talk so negatively about China so often and why he has seemed to enjoy Chinese misery whenever they lose.
But let's pretend there's no recurring theme here while I state clearly that I am 100% on the side of the forum and not on the side of 'anyone' (be it Tony or anyone else) who thinks they can just do what they like and disrespect the moderators.
As I've said several times already, if he'd just listened and calmed down this mole hill mountain wouldn't exist and I find the I'm not coming back stance to be absolutely ott.

 

[NetProphet]

@NetProphet:

I have broadly championed is respectful language towards all TT personalities and Tony qualifies, even as much as I disagree with his decision - he was not guilty of anything heinous, and some (in fact many have) would argue that his pride was defensible. Let's please keep it respectful, he had decided to leave the forum and gave his contact information which I am sure a lot of people used. Tony organized a lot of things, including charity projects given to individuals in nations having less. He used his powers for good on many occasions and largely did so, as much as I disagree again with his decisions in this particular situation. His popularity is a reflection of the value people gained from his presence. IT's okay to disagree with the broad basis of his popularity but there is absolutely no need to be gratuitously insulting over it. You make a lot of points that I would make if I felt rational arguments in defense of myself would make a difference so I am torn about giving the warning, but it is what the situation demands. Please be respectful.

These will be my last words on it.
He didnt do anything awful, we know that.
And you are tied up in the middle.
But it's absolutely clear that to not even post a message to explain a little or say goodbye has one intended purpose and leaves you hung out to dry with absolute sh!t for thanks for offering to take over the moderators role from Carl.
Everyone who wants to ignore that behavior and the intended damage which it causes in a community is welcome to do so but I'm calling it for what I see.
If you can't understand the actions, look at the outcomes.
This is absolute playing of a victim card where it is not warranted and I find it and it's lingering stain to be quite reprehensible.
I will not speak on the subject again.

 

[Lazer]

Now let this be the last we hear about this issue…

Cheers
L-zr

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Has zeio been banned as well ?

 

[boretennis]

Has zeio been banned as well ?

he just posted an hour ago

 

[zeio]

Has zeio been banned as well ?

I was, for 24 hours, for a separate incident with a different member.

 

[zeio]

Agree, before deciding to ban someone Dan and the other mods need to decide first on whether a user should be banned or not. It shouldn’t be a decision based on one mod only.

Also when sorting out issues whether it should be done privately or publicly with a mod, I always believe that it should be done publicly over privately so that other users can chime in and decide who is right and wrong cause when things are done privately we don’t get the full picture on what’s going on.

I know why Tony was banned but what did Zeio say that got him banned?

Hmm, for not turning the other cheek, to put it mildly...

 

[pingpongpaddy]

NETPROPHETS PM TO ME:[
Hi Paddy
Just a quick message to say I respect your posts and I respect your viewpoint on this.
I just don't think there was anything done by anyone acting on behalf of the forum to justify Tony's 'im never coming back' stance. NL didn't do anything that warranted that response from Tony.
And that being the case NL could never have foreseen that Tony would just leave, it's a totally disproportionate response to the situation. At least that's how I see it.
Anyway, I enjoy your posts and I respect you and your viewpoint. Sorry if some of that was lost iny posts.
Cheers
NETPROPHET

MY REPLY:-
Why do you send me PM?
why are you aggressive and disrespectful in public and then send me "respect" pm? Why not post in public?.
I am considering publishing this pm of yours

Toggle signature
ppp

bh
spinpips chop2

 

[NDH]

I said that when I took on the role of "mod", it wouldn't change what/how I post (not that I post a huge amount anyway!)

The reality is, it's difficult for people to know if you are posting as a "mod" or your own opinion.

This is *my* opinion.

@pingpongpaddy considering you were a mod how ever many years ago, I'm genuinely shocked at how you've gone about all of this.

You've read into some "aggression" you feel from another user, who simply disagrees with you and provides examples of why. I personally didn't read the messages as aggressive at all.

I've read every single message, and whilst it's just one persons opinion, it's no different to yours. An opinion.

No one (aside from a few) have all of the details, and certainly *no one* understands the intention behind other users actions.

A user has then reached out to you privately, and you've felt the need to publish that message as some kind of "gotcha" moment....

I don't know what reaction you were hoping for, but I have great respect for people who can reach out to others IN PRIVATE who they disagree with, and explain that it is just that.... A disagreement on something. A difference of opinion.

But look at this thread in general? What a gigantic waste of time and brain power on a *Table Tennis* forum.

No one wants to lock threads, delete messages or dictate things - But the reality is, it's threads like this which is why moderators are needed, and to be honest, this thread should have been locked and deleted right at the start.

It's just re-hashing the same old stuff from the other 2 threads in a different way.

Let's all move on, enjoy the weird and wonderful silly little game we all play, and actually discuss *table tennis*.

And just to end this with a hint of excitement.....

New info coming soon of the WORLDWIDE TTD Forum meet up......

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

such heavy subject, such solemn subject.

Things were much easier when we were arguing: What is the best alternative to Tenergy 05 or How do I keep my MX-P functional after two sessions.

I wish it was 2024 again.

 

[NDH]

best alternative to Tenergy 05

Dignics 05!

How do I keep my MX-P functional after two sessions

You can't - Embrace the drop off! 😂

 

[pingpongpaddy]

I said that when I took on the role of "mod", it wouldn't change what/how I post (not that I post a huge amount anyway!)

The reality is, it's difficult for people to know if you are posting as a "mod" or your own opinion.

This is *my* opinion.

@pingpongpaddy considering you were a mod how ever many years ago, I'm genuinely shocked at how you've gone about all of this.

You've read into some "aggression" you feel from another user, who simply disagrees with you and provides examples of why. I personally didn't read the messages as aggressive at all.

I thought this quite aggressive
netprophet:

The absolute narcissism to have someone post a website and email address the next day in case people here couldn't manage without him!

I've read every single message, and whilst it's just one persons opinion, it's no different to yours. An opinion.

No one (aside from a few) have all of the details, and certainly *no one* understands the intention behind other users actions.

A user has then reached out to you privately, and you've felt the need to publish that message as some kind of "gotcha" moment....

I don't know what reaction you were hoping for, but I have great respect for people who can reach out to others IN PRIVATE who they disagree with, and explain that it is just that.... A disagreement on something. A difference of opinion.

But look at this thread in general? What a gigantic waste of time and brain power on a *Table Tennis* forum.

No one wants to lock threads, delete messages or dictate things - But the reality is, it's threads like this which is why moderators are needed, and to be honest, this thread should have been locked and deleted right at the start.

It's just re-hashing the same old stuff from the other 2 threads in a different way.

Let's all move on, enjoy the weird and wonderful silly little game we all play, and actually discuss *table tennis*.

And just to end this with a hint of excitement.....

New coming soon of the WORLDWIDE TTD Forum meet up......

the reason I wanted to publish was not "gotcha" but was because I felt netprophets behaviour was two faced, and after all the great benefit of a forum is to for everything to be above board.
I recall that in my years as a mod, from time to time I received pms from people to support my action on something privately though they did not express support publicly. I did not publish their pms but I encouraged them to speak out as that is what a forum is for

This was netprophets response when I told him I might publish
Post it if you want.
Doesn't bother me in the slightest.
As for asking why I wrote it, if you read it that should be blindingly obvious.
And by the way you're being a bit of a Muppet about it.

@NDH
you are entitled to your opinion.
IMHO
the reason for the popularity of forums is that many of the posters care deeply on some subjects:
in my case I love to promote tt
also I think free speech within reason is something worth defending