Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[dingyibvs]

The problem is that i max out using blades at 85g in extreme cases 87g. I just don't like dealing with weight issues after all the stuff I have gone through. But yes, I have heard (and know from experience) that heavier blades carry more heft for driving and looping the ball. But I also got spinsight, I just havent had a chance to train with it yet and I will use that to conduct objective experiments as well.

He had lighter rubbers on it so it actually weighed only like 192 grams, which is about the same as my usual setups. That's probably why I didn't feel the weight was an issue. With feel like that I'd be willing to go heavier though, the lighter one just felt so unremarkable.

 

[NextLevel]

He had lighter rubbers on it so it actually weighed only like 192 grams, which is about the same as my usual setups. That's probably why I didn't feel the weight was an issue. With feel like that I'd be willing to go heavier though, the lighter one just felt so unremarkable.

Oh I know what you mean. And I used heavier blades when I was younger and even up until 2024. Then three things happened. I tested Garaydia ALCs that happened to be 83g. Then I went from D05 and Chinese rubbers to D80. My results were not impacted and my swings got decently faster with the lighter blades. Then I got 84g Viscaria SALCs, loved them, and haven't looked back since.

I have had two occasions recently where I played with a head heavy blade, either a slow blade with hollow handle like the new Hugo HAL, or a D09c plus cybershape carbon etc. At some point the grip tension aggravated something else. Could I build up strength and try to manage it? Definitely. But since I know I can play decent with the lighter blades, I just note that heavier blades would probably play better for a certain (usually innerforce blade) but I don't push it too hard because there are advantages to being able to do what I do with my fingers and wrist as well.

Maybe one day out of curiosity I will find and play with 90g versions of these innerforce blades.

 

[OvrChkn]

Unless you are broke, if you want to play with hard rubbers like C55, just do the Butterfly versions and call it a day. C55 is a really demanding rubber to play witb when you don't have a lot of experience swinging fast at a lot of balls. D09c has many many more gears and even if it is also demanding, it will give you far more quality on suboptimal shots. People say Butterfly is expensive but using cheaper equipment also had costs unless you have someone who also uses it to mentor and train you.

In any case, always try to stick with and master middle of the road setups if you want to go advanced (FZD plus 2 Dignics or 2 Tenergys something like that) so that you think less about equipment. And if you end up not being able to control it, you cn work on what you are missing. And if not because of speed, remember that Butterfly has a whole range of rubbers for players at your level (Rozenas and Glayzers). Many players find good results with those and switch to the advanced stuff at 1600-1800. Going to C55 put you on an island - afterall, the best player using c55 in the world doesn't even use carbon blades. It's not good to be on an island.

The main driver is that I can find deals on rubbers vs Butterfly and that's always been my main hangup. I can get non-Butterfly rubbers for roughly 30% off if they are on-sale and buy in bulk for the year. I got my FZD and Lezoline shoes on sale through Amazon, which I wish I could get the more consumable side for cheaper consistently even though I get that's where the money is.

In my brief testing with regular Glayzer, I actually liked it vs the 09c, but that series is not popular with those at my club.

 

[NextLevel]

The main driver is that I can find deals on rubbers vs Butterfly and that's always been my main hangup. I can get non-Butterfly rubbers for roughly 30% off if they are on-sale and buy in bulk for the year. I got my FZD and Lezoline shoes on sale through Amazon, which I wish I could get the more consumable side for cheaper consistently even though I get that's where the money is.

In my brief testing with regular Glayzer, I actually liked it vs the 09c, but that series is not popular with those at my club.

I get the deal mindset and you are going to come to your own conclusions. Just sharing some of mine and hoping the simplify your journey. It will be hard for you to have spent more money on deals amd equipment than I did at your level. I tested a lot of stuff and have given away a lot of stuff.

The deals are easier to evaluate when your technique is in a box. Changing equipment without a lot of training makes that box harder to build. Most kids in my area played with nothing but Rozena ( which wasn't around when I was developing) and Tenergy and Dignics (which again wasn’t around when i was developing). Glayzer is becoming an option for some. When i was learning, Tenergy was replaced every 6 months to a year. I ran through every hyped up Tenergy replacement (which is not what you are doing). It was fun sure and I learned about equipment but it didn't help my ball control. I messed around with lots of blades as well.

Butterfly stuff in terms of high performance rubber lasts the longest. I usually don't recommend Dignics to someone at your level because it is expensive and 05 can be tricky but someone at your level should be able to use 05 for a year easily. 80 and 64 are also quite durable even if softer. Butterfly doesn't give online deals but everyone with enough investigation should be able to find a supplier who can give a 10% discount (sometimes more). If you need a discount, let me know and I can order from my source. Tenergy is less durable but even though it looks work, it performs at a high level for a good period of time as well, just not as durable as Dignics. The main benefit is that you can focus on mastering the rubber whether you play well with it or not because you know somw really strong players are using them, and even some learners are, you just have to find good instruction.

Usually if someone doesnt want to take the Butterfly plunge, I tell them fastarc c1 and g1 because the spin play translates well. Also strong amateurs use those rubbers and they sell well in Japan. Anything else, you need to know which player you are modeling. There are many good rubbers but not every good rubber helps you develop your game.

Nuzn and C-1 is a good combo. But do realize it is easier to copy people when you are using what they use. Eliminates variables. Glayzer is not popular with people who like Dignics and Tenergy speed and spin. But it has loads of control as well as decent spin. A lot comes down to what you are looking for. I am just not sure getting a deal makes it worth it to use rubbers that are not in your development path.

Have an honest conversation with your club about the best discount they can give you on Butterfly equipment. My Supplier gives me 15% roughly on blades and rubbers. Your club might not give you 15% but they will give you something if you make the right relationship.

 

[NextLevel]

I think i have found what I need. Harimoto SZLC with Zyre 03 allows me to hit a lot of shots. The best part is that our od nowhere i have a intuitive consistency that makes no sense - i am making some crazy blocks and outtinf the ball on the table when i have no business doing so. Now I just need to train. I an getting good arc on brush shots and there seems to be a path to slow heavy spin. Will get some data with Spinsight on Sunday hopefully.

 

[Der_Echte]

True, but what that means for the ball quality and your recovery is harder to know... trying to use slow blades to bully players who block well often doesn't end well...

In the decade+ that NL has not seen Der_Echte, I have developed a real mean fast BH hit using slow blades and softer rubbers... kinda defies physics, but losing 30 lbs in 2025 also defied both physics and logic give I did not give up late night after TT pizza and beers.

 

[NextLevel]

In the decade+ that NL has not seen Der_Echte, I have developed a real mean fast BH hit using slow blades and softer rubbers... kinda defies physics, but losing 30 lbs in 2025 also defied both physics and logic give I did not give up late night after TT pizza and beers.

Where I play, the kids just step back and block the balls with their carbon monsters. It helps to be able to just block the ball with my carbon monster as well rather than get into perfect position for a hit out of an infinitely tiny sweet spot. Just saying.

 

[TampaBayTableTennis]

The top contributors list got Y2K'd as we entered the new year? i guess it offers some nostalgia for simpler times so I dont mind

 

[NextLevel]

The top contributors list got Y2K'd as we entered the new year? i guess it offers some nostalgia for simpler times so I dont mind

Since it is something that only people who pay attention to it notice, the top contributors keeps the prior month total or something like that until you make your first post for the new month. One of thoae software bugs that no one cares about until it upsets something major and I am not sure why it exists.

 

[TampaBayTableTennis]

so Tony was playing the long game... brilliant!

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

so Tony was playing the long game... brilliant!

View attachment 39734

It's like the art of fighting without fighting.

 

[latej]

@Tony's Table Tennis - it's time ;-)

 

[OvrChkn]

I get the deal mindset and you are going to come to your own conclusions. Just sharing some of mine and hoping the simplify your journey. It will be hard for you to have spent more money on deals amd equipment than I did at your level. I tested a lot of stuff and have given away a lot of stuff.

The deals are easier to evaluate when your technique is in a box. Changing equipment without a lot of training makes that box harder to build. Most kids in my area played with nothing but Rozena ( which wasn't around when I was developing) and Tenergy and Dignics (which again wasn’t around when i was developing). Glayzer is becoming an option for some. When i was learning, Tenergy was replaced every 6 months to a year. I ran through every hyped up Tenergy replacement (which is not what you are doing). It was fun sure and I learned about equipment but it didn't help my ball control. I messed around with lots of blades as well.

Butterfly stuff in terms of high performance rubber lasts the longest. I usually don't recommend Dignics to someone at your level because it is expensive and 05 can be tricky but someone at your level should be able to use 05 for a year easily. 80 and 64 are also quite durable even if softer. Butterfly doesn't give online deals but everyone with enough investigation should be able to find a supplier who can give a 10% discount (sometimes more). If you need a discount, let me know and I can order from my source. Tenergy is less durable but even though it looks work, it performs at a high level for a good period of time as well, just not as durable as Dignics. The main benefit is that you can focus on mastering the rubber whether you play well with it or not because you know somw really strong players are using them, and even some learners are, you just have to find good instruction.

Usually if someone doesnt want to take the Butterfly plunge, I tell them fastarc c1 and g1 because the spin play translates well. Also strong amateurs use those rubbers and they sell well in Japan. Anything else, you need to know which player you are modeling. There are many good rubbers but not every good rubber helps you develop your game.

Nuzn and C-1 is a good combo. But do realize it is easier to copy people when you are using what they use. Eliminates variables. Glayzer is not popular with people who like Dignics and Tenergy speed and spin. But it has loads of control as well as decent spin. A lot comes down to what you are looking for. I am just not sure getting a deal makes it worth it to use rubbers that are not in your development path.

Have an honest conversation with your club about the best discount they can give you on Butterfly equipment. My Supplier gives me 15% roughly on blades and rubbers. Your club might not give you 15% but they will give you something if you make the right relationship.

I'll have to ask when I get back to the club. Glayzer costs as much as C-1, so that's definitely something I can check for the future. I had a bad experience with trying both Glayzers a while back, but I'm realizing now that it was the blade I tested. It felt fine on a Viscaria. Definitely agree with your point that the it hasn't found a footing cause it's in a weird middle ground with the other Butterfly rubbers.

 

[andymagata]

Yesterday I had a 1 and half an hour training session at my local club, there were six of us present, and I had lots of fun. I hope I am closing in on a set up that I like to play an extended amount of time with. Usually, I play with a set up for 3-5 training sessions before I try something else, rubbers or blades. As a beginner I still consider myself, I can feel that something is off - even though I hardly can tell what. Others would say it is my technique that plays tricks on me, which I agree with - though I can never completely shake of that odd feeling that the blade or rubber is off for me. And I have to say, even if I pick up the same equipment like 6 months later, the first impression I got lasted even though my technique improved a bit in that time.

I am also beginning to believe that the blade impacts the feeling if a setup is good or not so good more than the rubbers.

But this time around I had my best feeling yet. 169 grams of a setup, blade Sanwei 75 PBO inner, Loki Rxton 3 Green on fh and 729 Super FX large pores soft sponge blue 1mm on bh. My most expensive blade. Well, I could do those spinny loops from close to the floor on my fh, and I landed many more of my bh drives on the table, my bh serves where hard to deal with for my oppos (that is where I won most of my points) and the occasional straight banana flick (only brush the side of the ball with limited wrist movement) was really side-spinny. Anyways, I am glad I dared to try 1mm sponge on bh side.

I hope my feeling persist - I don't want to change anymore. I have run out of glue!

 

[dingyibvs]

Over the past week I've started to do more BH practice, including starting to learn the BH loop especially a couple steps away from the table. I've found that while I usually do BH practice near the table, in game play I'm usually a bit further back so my practice is often not useful. Now I'm trying to both practice BH farther from the table as well as trying to play matches closer to the table.

I think I'm gonna do the same thing as when I re-learned the FH loop. First just hitting the ball as hard as I can against the robot with as little spin as possible, with no regard of where the ball lands. Next try to get the ball to land on the table and figure out just how much I can just hit and still land the shot. Lastly I'll add spin for the loop. I still repeat these steps on the FH side every practice at home, it really helps me in hitting into the blade, getting good contact and timing. I also really, really need to improve my footwork for BH shots. I adjust my position a lot to hit a FH, but on the BH side I just stand at one place waiting for the ball to come, leaning left and right. That's not gonna work. I've been pretty busy the past few weeks, but hopefully I'll be able to schedule a coaching session soon to address technical deficiencies.

On the equipment front, lady beginner came to the club with 2 rackets someone gifted her. A 9mm and a 10mm 1-ply hinoki shakehand with Rozenas on both sides. I tried it out a bit, just some loops against block, and my gosh the Hinoki feels good! I totally see why people love it now lol, maybe I'll get one for myself too!

 

[dingyibvs]

So I've trained BH loops before, but it always felt wrong. After spending the past few months gradually improving my close to the table BH counters, I decided to try it again, this time integrating what I learned closer to the table and morphing it into a looping stroke. I figured that it was possible because my training on the FH side revealed that all FH strokes from blocks to power loops, against all spins, are really just variations of one stroke. After a little over a week of trying different things, I think I've finally found the right technique!

Throughout my journey to pursue better technique I've found it just crazy how wrong those top level players/coaches on YT are. They all learned their craft as a little kids and have no idea why their technique is so good. They often focus on specific things that give them the edge, without realizing all the countless hours needed to shape all other aspects of their technique to make those little things even matter.

Look at this video for example, where a ~2500 level popular coach/Youtuber is analyzing Darko Jorgic's BH. It's clear to anyone with effing eyes that Darko's elbow moves a ton in the video, even in the frontal view, yet he keeps stressing how the key is his elbow is fixed, that it's "non-negotiable".

In the below FZD BH video you can see the same thing. He has one of the more compact BH motions and it's hard to see the elbow movement from the frontal view, but go to 27 seconds in on the side view, it's clear that he moves his elbow forward a good amount.

After a lot of trials involving various videos' teachings as well as paying attention to what people actually do, I found that the BH loop shares some key similarities with the FH loop. One such similarity is in the backswing, specifically that it's mostly passive, and that the completion of the backswing occurs at the beginning of the forward swing. At maximal backswing the forearm is level or behind the elbow, and the wrist is cocked back, but it's not accomplished by bending the forearm and wrist back. Instead, the forearm achieves its maximal backward bend by keeping the elbow joint relaxed while moving the elbow forward, and the wrist achieves its maximal backward bend by keeping the wrist relaxed while the elbow and then forearm move forward. Then as you approach the ball the elbow finally becomes fixed, which transfer energy to the forearm, and lastly right before contact the forearm slows down to transfer energy to the hand/racket (i.e. the wrist snap).

This whole sequence may be shorter or longer depending on the incoming ball, but you must execute all of it to achieve the highest quality possible for each shot. The forward movement of the elbow in the BH stroke is important not just in power generation, it's also very important in timing. Like on the FH side, the forearm snap can be a bit earlier or later while the elbow moves forward to adjust for any misjudgments in timing. That may not be super useful when you're very close to the table, but take a couple steps back and try to loop and you'll have tremendous problems with power generation due to missed timing, if not missing the table altogether.

 

[Wrighty67]

So I've trained BH loops before, but it always felt wrong. After spending the past few months gradually improving my close to the table BH counters, I decided to try it again, this time integrating what I learned closer to the table and morphing it into a looping stroke. I figured that it was possible because my training on the FH side revealed that all FH strokes from blocks to power loops, against all spins, are really just variations of one stroke. After a little over a week of trying different things, I think I've finally found the right technique!

Throughout my journey to pursue better technique I've found it just crazy how wrong those top level players/coaches on YT are. They all learned their craft as a little kids and have no idea why their technique is so good. They often focus on specific things that give them the edge, without realizing all the countless hours needed to shape all other aspects of their technique to make those little things even matter.

Look at this video for example, where a ~2500 level popular coach/Youtuber is analyzing Darko Jorgic's BH. It's clear to anyone with effing eyes that Darko's elbow moves a ton in the video, even in the frontal view, yet he keeps stressing how the key is his elbow is fixed, that it's "non-negotiable".

In the below FZD BH video you can see the same thing. He has one of the more compact BH motions and it's hard to see the elbow movement from the frontal view, but go to 27 seconds in on the side view, it's clear that he moves his elbow forward a good amount.

After a lot of trials involving various videos' teachings as well as paying attention to what people actually do, I found that the BH loop shares some key similarities with the FH loop. One such similarity is in the backswing, specifically that it's mostly passive, and that the completion of the backswing occurs at the beginning of the forward swing. At maximal backswing the forearm is level or behind the elbow, and the wrist is cocked back, but it's not accomplished by bending the forearm and wrist back. Instead, the forearm achieves its maximal backward bend by keeping the elbow joint relaxed while moving the elbow forward, and the wrist achieves its maximal backward bend by keeping the wrist relaxed while the elbow and then forearm move forward. Then as you approach the ball the elbow finally becomes fixed, which transfer energy to the forearm, and lastly right before contact the forearm slows down to transfer energy to the hand/racket (i.e. the wrist snap).

This whole sequence may be shorter or longer depending on the incoming ball, but you must execute all of it to achieve the highest quality possible for each shot. The forward movement of the elbow in the BH stroke is important not just in power generation, it's also very important in timing. Like on the FH side, the forearm snap can be a bit earlier or later while the elbow moves forward to adjust for any misjudgments in timing. That may not be super useful when you're very close to the table, but take a couple steps back and try to loop and you'll have tremendous problems with power generation due to missed timing, if not missing the table altogether.

Interesting insight - I will certainly try this tomorrow at practice. As someone who has done (and continues to do) a lot of work on the BH I am interested in your perspective on racket height at end backswing/start forward swing vs backspin (open up) I have done a lot of work after a lot of feedback from strong BH players trying to keep the racket at or around table height, which is not that dissimilar to playing a topspin ball. The focus being very much on a forward motion, with a contact point slightly lower than when playing top. It is something I have struggled with - it takes a lot of confidence and commitment to pull off, as opposed to a lower start point and then wrapping over the ball to create the arc. I have attached a short video of Sam Walker demonstrating what he was trying to convey to me.

 

[NextLevel]

So I've trained BH loops before, but it always felt wrong. After spending the past few months gradually improving my close to the table BH counters, I decided to try it again, this time integrating what I learned closer to the table and morphing it into a looping stroke. I figured that it was possible because my training on the FH side revealed that all FH strokes from blocks to power loops, against all spins, are really just variations of one stroke. After a little over a week of trying different things, I think I've finally found the right technique!

Throughout my journey to pursue better technique I've found it just crazy how wrong those top level players/coaches on YT are. They all learned their craft as a little kids and have no idea why their technique is so good. They often focus on specific things that give them the edge, without realizing all the countless hours needed to shape all other aspects of their technique to make those little things even matter.

Look at this video for example, where a ~2500 level popular coach/Youtuber is analyzing Darko Jorgic's BH. It's clear to anyone with effing eyes that Darko's elbow moves a ton in the video, even in the frontal view, yet he keeps stressing how the key is his elbow is fixed, that it's "non-negotiable".

In the below FZD BH video you can see the same thing. He has one of the more compact BH motions and it's hard to see the elbow movement from the frontal view, but go to 27 seconds in on the side view, it's clear that he moves his elbow forward a good amount.

After a lot of trials involving various videos' teachings as well as paying attention to what people actually do, I found that the BH loop shares some key similarities with the FH loop. One such similarity is in the backswing, specifically that it's mostly passive, and that the completion of the backswing occurs at the beginning of the forward swing. At maximal backswing the forearm is level or behind the elbow, and the wrist is cocked back, but it's not accomplished by bending the forearm and wrist back. Instead, the forearm achieves its maximal backward bend by keeping the elbow joint relaxed while moving the elbow forward, and the wrist achieves its maximal backward bend by keeping the wrist relaxed while the elbow and then forearm move forward. Then as you approach the ball the elbow finally becomes fixed, which transfer energy to the forearm, and lastly right before contact the forearm slows down to transfer energy to the hand/racket (i.e. the wrist snap).

This whole sequence may be shorter or longer depending on the incoming ball, but you must execute all of it to achieve the highest quality possible for each shot. The forward movement of the elbow in the BH stroke is important not just in power generation, it's also very important in timing. Like on the FH side, the forearm snap can be a bit earlier or later while the elbow moves forward to adjust for any misjudgments in timing. That may not be super useful when you're very close to the table, but take a couple steps back and try to loop and you'll have tremendous problems with power generation due to missed timing, if not missing the table altogether.

Language is a dangerous thing sometimes. When you say Darko's elbow is moving or fixed, the question is moving relative to what and fixed relative to what. I think that will resolve your issue and enhance your understanding of the stroke. What Vlad really means when he talks about fixed elbow is limited engagement of the upper arm. Its really the same as the forehand topspin and ultimately most TT strokes. I think you are focused on the literal nature of the statement and not the principle. Fan displays the same principle. The range of movement of the elbow relative to the body is fixed because the upper arm is not really engaged.

When your form is right, you can engage the upper arm a little more and sometimes even break the rules and play a bit with more shoulder. But if you learn to get power that way from the start, it will hurt your form because engaging the shoulder tends to affect the whip structure of the stroke.

 

[NextLevel]

Interesting insight - I will certainly try this tomorrow at practice. As someone who has done (and continues to do) a lot of work on the BH I am interested in your perspective on racket height at end backswing/start forward swing vs backspin (open up) I have done a lot of work after a lot of feedback from strong BH players trying to keep the racket at or around table height, which is not that dissimilar to playing a topspin ball. The focus being very much on a forward motion, with a contact point slightly lower than when playing top. It is something I have struggled with - it takes a lot of confidence and commitment to pull off, as opposed to a lower start point and then wrapping over the ball to create the arc. I have attached a short video of Sam Walker demonstrating what he was trying to convey to me.

A couple of things. The way I like to teach table tennis is that whether you play within or discard the official technical structure, every stroke has a shape/path. If you produce that shape or path, your stroke will work, the risks are all to health based on how the mechanics impact your body.

What is happening in that video is similar to what some does to loop on the forehand, it is the outward-in stroke path, i call it hitting the ball on the side though that might not have captured it as well as outward in. Many learners looping backspin, their stroke is forward and upward into the ball. Advanced players especially power loopers tend to trace a path that goes round the side of the ball slightly and finishes over it. That is what you see Sam doinf in that video. It takes a conscious selection of contact point and good racket head speed to get the stroke to work. But it definitely does. Here is a recent short that discusses it from the forehand perspective. For the backhand, it is done more with wrist with the inspiration of the banana flick so it is less obvious.

If you pay for the TTD Liam Pitchford lecture, he explains his approach which is similar. Here is the Tom Lodziak discussion. Just focus on the path the racket is tracing and less on the long discussion of mechanics. Tom is not bad either, he just lacks pro speed, contact and timing.

 

[NetProphet]

Look at this video for example, where a ~2500 level popular coach/Youtuber is analyzing Darko Jorgic's BH. It's clear to anyone with effing eyes that Darko's elbow moves a ton in the video, even in the frontal view, yet he keeps stressing how the key is his elbow is fixed, that it's "non-negotiable".

I dunno man, at the point of hitting the ball Darkos elbow seems fixed and the forearm rotating around it. Prior to contact it moves up because his legs push him upwards but it it seems fairly 'fixed' to me.
I also saw a video somewhere from Darkos coach where he says the same thing about elbow fixing as pivot point.
I can't see in that vid how much it's moving it's fwd (from engagement of upper arm) and how much of that might be body movement v upper arm fwd motion.
Given that there's a 'left-right' movement of the elbow and 'forward-back' movement of the elbow.
I'm guessing that 2500 coach is meaning to have the left-right component eliminated for a good shot , as many people move their elbow from left to right to get behind the ball instead of moving their feet and body.
The forward component is definitely there as you say and is what helps calibrate our timing.

In the below FZD BH video you can see the same thing. He has one of the more compact BH motions and it's hard to see the elbow movement from the frontal view, but go to 27 seconds in on the side view, it's clear that he moves his elbow forward a good amount.

He does move it fwd but this is a BH drive shot v a topspin ball. I've watched these FZD vids a hundred times.
Have you seen his loop V backspin in the same video series, it's a different stroke where he rotates around a fixed elbow with seeming no fwd movement. You can see the BH loop v backspin followed by BH topspin V block and compare both, at appx 8:30 in this vid.

.

Can you describe a bit how you envisage the back swing for your BH stroke, for loops V backspin and for counters v topspin or block?
It's something I struggle with and so BH punch is often my preferred weapon as I find it more reliable.

How much backswing do you use?
And given the Darko and FZD techniques are a bit different, which one do you try to emulate as you train?
Do you try to 100% copy one of them or you have a bit from column A a bit from column B approach?