Technique correction - Trying to Fix my FH backstroke + hitting through the sponge

[MORTtheORT]

It will take around 30min to upload. Watch the first 3:30 especially all the way through.

My motion is still not where I want it to be but the quality seems to be there once they land on the table. Even though he knew where I was gonna loop he had no chance. Usually if they block I have slow recovery..

Match was alright the 2nd set was terrible only.

Your weight is still going backwards with your rotation lowering the quality of your shot.

 

[MORTtheORT]

Your weight is still going backwards with your rotation lowering the quality of your shot.

At 3:43 mark you literally do a practice shot and you are upright and your weight is going backwards in your rotation. And after this you can see your are closing your blade off at the end of your stroke trying to guide the ball.

 

[sebi]

At 3:43 mark you literally do a practice shot and you are upright and your weight is going backwards in your rotation. And after this you can see your are closing your blade off at the end of your stroke trying to guide the ball.

The practice swing is awefull.

No weight transfer, bad hip rotation.
To me it looks like you use to much arm for to little and bad body movement.

 

[Zezima]

In the last few training videos I am not stiff. If anyone says so then they have no clue.

Some say @Zezima looks too stiff in the video. I'm no expert, but if I had to give one simple tip, just imagine you're peeing while you play 🤣 You’re not stiff when you're peeing, right?

P.s. Sorry if this sounds stupid 😅

Tournament is over at 20:30 was a disaster planning of the matches... first I arrived at 8am with my brother. Warmed up for an hour until his group games started. I went to have a quick breakfast. Came back around 10:45 warmed up till 11:30 another 10min break before my k.o game(B Event) started. This is the event I was focusing on gettting to the finals and maybe even win. I was 4th seed.

So I won my first game 3-0. It was enough to spin the ball with the very short stroke and just playing all around safe getting warmed up.

Then I played another dude same strategy. Another 3-0.

So I am in the semis. Feeling super good. Also suprised my fh topspin just comes at any pace and spin I want. Usually this takes 30+min.

Now the big fuckup.

They stop the B event and start with doubles event (man doubles, woman doubles, mixed doubles).

Here I only played in the man doubles with a 1200 rated player. We played against 2 young kids beat them clear and fair 3-0 thanks to me being full relaxed hitting those winners that I have been practising these last month.

Next doubles round we face the winners... I am like no way we face them (they are 1800 and 1750 rated) any ball that crosses the back white line and they hit a winner.
My partner struggles with pushes and looping and blocking. So my hope was he can somehow bring the ball back low. I was serving short backspin so they couldnt attack (except the 1800 player trying to flip once in a while). Idk I played really good again they couldnt attack my serves and when I got to play I either looped with a really good placement and or speed etc. In short we lost the first to 9 then won the next to 9 and lost the remaining to 9. So still happy with the results since we are 1500 and 1200 vs 1800 and 1750

Okey and then guess what happens. They start with the A Event groups. My goal in A event is just surviving groups and then enjoy the game after groups since I will immediately face a 1800. I play groups win 2 lose one so I get to the K.O stage and lose my game 0-3 to the winner of tournament. Problem is my legs burning even before the first A group ins play. So right now I am quite done.

Now after I have played all those games they call us to resune the semis in B event. The fkin Event I had my entire focus on. There are 2 tables whi have terrible light(half side is bright the other side shadowy) even though we could have played on a different table he didnt say anything either and I didnt want to be like oh look he thinking:"he got to chose his table and still losing" so I said fk it we both play with the same conditions.

He has 150points more which is a lot in our rating system. Very controlled played who opens up spinny slowish not too slow with the fh likes to pivot. If I end up getting a good wide backhand placement and he is not in position but decided to pivot he did a slow mid heighish fade into my backhand. Didnt know what to do with that ball.

Started the first set 0-6 then somehow woke up started attacking got to 6-6 then 6-9 then 8-10 and then lost.
2nd set went worse another 0-5 start and lost to 4.
Last set was competitve very close. But I was only winning if I moved to the left and looped the balls on the middle with my fh. But had no energy also with his weird fade balls and bad lightning I decided not to trust my strokes and right at contact my hand froze telling me I decided to go for a wrong stroke so we wont continue. So I ended up only holding the racket and the ball went into the net many many times. Especially on the bh it happened a lot.

My fh was not good enough to end the point straight away usually started with a controlled spinny one. And then kept pressuring him. As long as I got him to block I was ahead. But if I ended up in the push rally he was ahead since he would just pivot if needed and attack spinny.

So yeah last set went 11-13 for him and he won the event. He was first seed. 1650 rated.

I am only sad I played him when my legs and energy was about empty. We played 11h after the B event had started which is insane. 7h or so we played other events in between. I think otherwise I had a better chance and maybe get my first win vs him. Because my hand feeling was alright. The stroke I was practising for the last 1 month was actually good I have much more confident in my fh now.

The kid I lost to in A event groups said he had to take 1 year break and only started 4 months ago. He lost first 2 rounds and then won all his games in the remaining 9 rounds. Against me he was topspinning with 90% power and then finished the point with 100% if I by luck somehow blocked it ( he was always hitting to my fh or wide fh)
Basically the playstylw I was working hard myself for the last months. I asked him how he trains that stroke if he does multiballs etc. He said no he doesnt even train lately. Just plays league games. He just topspins the ball hard (he is around 160cm170cm) quite short 18y. Too bad there is no footage but that was insane the way he played. He even beat a player 150 points rated above him. Brother had a 90% success rate it was not normal. That made me actually feel bad. He achieves that randomly without training regularly skips an entire year. While here I am watching 100 table tennis technique videos a month. Film myself train multiball etc. And yet I would prob land only 30% of those shots of him. He somehow lost his first game in the B event to the player I bwat 3-0 so he didnt get that far there he only got 1 round further than me in A because he did an upset and even almost beat someone 300points higher than him only losing with 2p difference... and all that with 0 training never filming himself or anything. Idc about losing but this hit me hard.

This was a long post non fh technique related. From now on the focus will be about the technique again. League starts at 30.1 so I have about 2 weeks left to keep working on it. I think my serves are good atleast good enough to keep them guessing and not attacking from the get go. But my receives vs long sidespin serves need more work. I am randomly guessing if it has back,empty or topspin. Topspin I can see easiest with the way the ball bounced but with the two I find it hardest to loop consistently without doing a mistake.

So the inc 1 weeks working on harder fh topspin and receive long sidespin variations.

 

[NextLevel]

The practice swing is awefull.

No weight transfer, bad hip rotation.
To me it looks like you use to much arm for to little and bad body movement.

At 3:43 mark you literally do a practice shot and you are upright and your weight is going backwards in your rotation. And after this you can see your are closing your blade off at the end of your stroke trying to guide the ball.

Guys, please ease on the comments if you are not all willing to post your own videos with your own loop out there. I know Zezima can handle himself and is open to commentary of all kinds but this behavior of cutting down someone while not sharing your own struggles is not ehat this webboard is about

Everyone can tell others what is wrong but I find that people who are not willing to post video of themselves tend to take it too far because there is no video of themselves for others to better appreciate their perspective and keep them humble. Anyone who has trained especially as an adult knows that what Zezima is trying to do is incredibly difficult on many levels. And they would never phrase the issues the way you guys are doing it.

He needs genuine insights from people who have put in the hours. Not insults from people who think that the process is as simple as just telling someone something is wrong is genuine insight. And if he doesn't fix it or get much better it is not because he isn't trying.

Thank you. I hope both of you with deep insights will be willing to show your own videos since we can see your perfect form and learn from you as well.

 

[sebi]

Guys, please ease on the comments if you are not all willing to post your own videos with your own loop out there. I know Zezima can handle himself and is open to commentary of all kinds but this behavior of cutting down someone while not sharing your own struggles is not ehat this webboard is about

Everyone can tell others what is wrong but I find that people who are not willing to post video of themselves tend to take it too far because there is no video of themselves for others to better appreciate their perspective and keep them humble. Anyone who has trained especially as an adult knows that what Zezima is trying to do is incredibly difficult on many levels. And they would never phrase the issues the way you guys are doing it.

He needs genuine insights from people who have put in the hours. Not insults from people who think that the process is as simple as just telling someone something is wrong is genuine insight. And if he doesn't fix it or get much better it is not because he isn't trying.

Thank you. I hope both of you with deep insights will be willing to show your own videos since we can see your perfect form and learn from you as well.

This is me training if you want you can correct as much as you want and as detailed as possible. I put in the hours as much as possible and pay for one on one training and do it as often as I can see my coach. He was for a long time a trainer at the DFB national youth center.

Maybe another Tip, don´t train for 20 min and then check your video, do maybe max 5 min then check your self and try to immediately try to implement the changes in training, when you do practice swings try to get those down as good as you can maybe train them in the mirror. If you train wrong you will implement the wrong movement and train wrong.

 

[NextLevel]

This is me training if you want you can correct as much as you want and as detailed as possible. I put in the hours as much as possible and pay for one on one training and do it as often as I can see my coach. He was for a long time a trainer at the DFB national youth center.

Maybe another Tip, don´t train for 20 min and then check your video, do maybe max 5 min then check your self and try to immediately try to implement the changes in training, when you do practice swings try to get those down as good as you can maybe train them in the mirror. If you train wrong you will implement the wrong movement and train wrong.

Thanks for posting. Since this is @Zezima 's thread, you can open your own. You could definitely squat much more on the backhand topspin and since I can't see the ball feed, I am not sure what you are working on. Your game looks good, but I suspect you have been playing for years (how many years have you been playing and training for and at what age did you start?) and @Zezima would love to work with a coach like yours but cannot access one easily.

 

[sebi]

Thanks for posting. Since this is @Zezima 's thread, you can open your own. You could definitely squat much more on the backhand topspin and since I can't see the ball feed, I am not sure what you are working on. Your game looks good, but I suspect you have been playing for years (how many years have you been playing and training for and at what age did you start?) and @Zezima would love to work with a coach like yours but cannot access one easily.

At this point i was playing for 1.5 years, had a 10 year gap, played two years before that. video is about a 3 months old. Exercise is, push back hand, open up against back spin, counter spin the block, then spin spin

 

[NextLevel]

At this point i was playing for 1.5 years, had a 10 year gap, played two years before that. video is about a 3 months old. Exercise is, push back hand, open up against back spin, counter spin the block, then spin spin

Thanks. At least you have shared video (you really should share quite a bit more) so @Zezima can try and understand your comments based on how you play. Thanks for sharing.

 

[sebi]

Thanks. At least you have shared video (you really should share quite a bit more) so @Zezima can try and understand your comments based on how you play. Thanks for sharing.

no worries

 

[NextLevel]

In the last few training videos I am not stiff. If anyone says so then they have no clue.



Tournament is over at 20:30 was a disaster planning of the matches... first I arrived at 8am with my brother. Warmed up for an hour until his group games started. I went to have a quick breakfast. Came back around 10:45 warmed up till 11:30 another 10min break before my k.o game(B Event) started. This is the event I was focusing on gettting to the finals and maybe even win. I was 4th seed.

So I won my first game 3-0. It was enough to spin the ball with the very short stroke and just playing all around safe getting warmed up.

Then I played another dude same strategy. Another 3-0.

So I am in the semis. Feeling super good. Also suprised my fh topspin just comes at any pace and spin I want. Usually this takes 30+min.

Now the big fuckup.

They stop the B event and start with doubles event (man doubles, woman doubles, mixed doubles).

Here I only played in the man doubles with a 1200 rated player. We played against 2 young kids beat them clear and fair 3-0 thanks to me being full relaxed hitting those winners that I have been practising these last month.

Next doubles round we face the winners... I am like no way we face them (they are 1800 and 1750 rated) any ball that crosses the back white line and they hit a winner.
My partner struggles with pushes and looping and blocking. So my hope was he can somehow bring the ball back low. I was serving short backspin so they couldnt attack (except the 1800 player trying to flip once in a while). Idk I played really good again they couldnt attack my serves and when I got to play I either looped with a really good placement and or speed etc. In short we lost the first to 9 then won the next to 9 and lost the remaining to 9. So still happy with the results since we are 1500 and 1200 vs 1800 and 1750

Okey and then guess what happens. They start with the A Event groups. My goal in A event is just surviving groups and then enjoy the game after groups since I will immediately face a 1800. I play groups win 2 lose one so I get to the K.O stage and lose my game 0-3 to the winner of tournament. Problem is my legs burning even before the first A group ins play. So right now I am quite done.

Now after I have played all those games they call us to resune the semis in B event. The fkin Event I had my entire focus on. There are 2 tables whi have terrible light(half side is bright the other side shadowy) even though we could have played on a different table he didnt say anything either and I didnt want to be like oh look he thinking:"he got to chose his table and still losing" so I said fk it we both play with the same conditions.

He has 150points more which is a lot in our rating system. Very controlled played who opens up spinny slowish not too slow with the fh likes to pivot. If I end up getting a good wide backhand placement and he is not in position but decided to pivot he did a slow mid heighish fade into my backhand. Didnt know what to do with that ball.

Started the first set 0-6 then somehow woke up started attacking got to 6-6 then 6-9 then 8-10 and then lost.
2nd set went worse another 0-5 start and lost to 4.
Last set was competitve very close. But I was only winning if I moved to the left and looped the balls on the middle with my fh. But had no energy also with his weird fade balls and bad lightning I decided not to trust my strokes and right at contact my hand froze telling me I decided to go for a wrong stroke so we wont continue. So I ended up only holding the racket and the ball went into the net many many times. Especially on the bh it happened a lot.

My fh was not good enough to end the point straight away usually started with a controlled spinny one. And then kept pressuring him. As long as I got him to block I was ahead. But if I ended up in the push rally he was ahead since he would just pivot if needed and attack spinny.

So yeah last set went 11-13 for him and he won the event. He was first seed. 1650 rated.

I am only sad I played him when my legs and energy was about empty. We played 11h after the B event had started which is insane. 7h or so we played other events in between. I think otherwise I had a better chance and maybe get my first win vs him. Because my hand feeling was alright. The stroke I was practising for the last 1 month was actually good I have much more confident in my fh now.

The kid I lost to in A event groups said he had to take 1 year break and only started 4 months ago. He lost first 2 rounds and then won all his games in the remaining 9 rounds. Against me he was topspinning with 90% power and then finished the point with 100% if I by luck somehow blocked it ( he was always hitting to my fh or wide fh)
Basically the playstylw I was working hard myself for the last months. I asked him how he trains that stroke if he does multiballs etc. He said no he doesnt even train lately. Just plays league games. He just topspins the ball hard (he is around 160cm170cm) quite short 18y. Too bad there is no footage but that was insane the way he played. He even beat a player 150 points rated above him. Brother had a 90% success rate it was not normal. That made me actually feel bad. He achieves that randomly without training regularly skips an entire year. While here I am watching 100 table tennis technique videos a month. Film myself train multiball etc. And yet I would prob land only 30% of those shots of him. He somehow lost his first game in the B event to the player I bwat 3-0 so he didnt get that far there he only got 1 round further than me in A because he did an upset and even almost beat someone 300points higher than him only losing with 2p difference... and all that with 0 training never filming himself or anything. Idc about losing but this hit me hard.

This was a long post non fh technique related. From now on the focus will be about the technique again. League starts at 30.1 so I have about 2 weeks left to keep working on it. I think my serves are good atleast good enough to keep them guessing and not attacking from the get go. But my receives vs long sidespin serves need more work. I am randomly guessing if it has back,empty or topspin. Topspin I can see easiest with the way the ball bounced but with the two I find it hardest to loop consistently without doing a mistake.

So the inc 1 weeks working on harder fh topspin and receive long sidespin variations.

The most valuable lessons one can get from a coach are forehand return lessons, and looping long serves lessons. Unfortunately they are undervalued and people focus too much on rally looping.

Based on your seeding, it seems like you had a good tournament. You just focused on the things you didn't like but all I heard were no bad losses and no special wins which to me is a good tournament. 150 rating points is a lot in USATT as well.

 

[Zezima]

The most valuable lessons one can get from a coach are forehand return lessons, and looping long serves lessons. Unfortunately they are undervalued and people focus too much on rally looping.

Based on your seeding, it seems like you had a good tournament. You just focused on the things you didn't like but all I heard were no bad losses and no special wins which to me is a good tournament. 150 rating points is a lot in USATT as well.

Well vs the 18y you can consider a bad loss he had like 1490 rating basically same rating as me. I lost 1-3 last set 11-13. He was the better player pressuring me hard with his fh. Basically whipping through with lots of topspin even though I knew he was gonna loop to my fh I couldn't even hold the racket and missed the ball completely which rarely ever happens. He also started with a long sidespin to my bh or fh mostly.

My point being he doesn't train and has transferred this skill into match play with 90% consistency. He is doing 0 analyzing with filming himself or watching table tennis videos and I hear from others aswell that he is not training.

Maybe I try to train too textbook like instead of letting go and just care about feedback. All those players I try to beat (1850) have no textbook like fh and bh aswell. And its not like I am gonna play in bundesliga ever.

So now I am a bit inbetween either keep going like this (try to hit with textbook technique) or the other way and just figure out by hitting the balls without caring about the backswing at all. I'll think about this over the weekend because that 18y really changed how I look at training and success. It's not like the opportunities don't rise for me. I get the same balls he gets to topspin hard. But I decide to hit hard maybe 3 out of 10 times and those 3 times maybe only 1 or 2 are straight winners. And the other 7 times 4 times I go slow and controlled with placement and 3 times I miss.

tldr: Why am I even training so hard when someone who doesn't train has achieved what I try to achieve in the last 2 months.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

i've seen your training and your consistency in training is not 90%.
whatever your consistency in practice is, it will be lower in tournament because of pressure, because you don't know the opponent, because its a different table or hall etc...and because of serve receive !
in practice / drills, you kinda know whats going on. You're mostly playing always the ball in a ideal position. In match 80% of balls are dirty which no or with spin, a bit shorter or longer, not where you expect it etc...
so its totally normal to be less consistent. Being able to play any ball is a skill, and one you don't seem to practice enough.

As for your basic shots, you must play with more with your body, especially legs, less arm. make extra efforts to stay low and knees forward due to your height. And you are too stiff and not relaxed.

Focus less on what an ideal swing backswing is, but more on the actual result and remember the feeling. Focus more on feeling stable and consistency. what good is if your shot "looks good" like textbook but lands only 40% of the time on the table.

To achieve consistency its like in music. You have to play more slowly at first. if some song is 140 bpm you don't learn it at 140bpm first. maybe 60 then 80 then 100 etc...
TT is the same. Learn by slowing down and understanding all the components of the shot and coordinate better.. you should find the pace at which your consistency is 90%. Then practice a bit faster where its only 70% and get that number up again etc... I think you want results too quickly. and it ends up being messy.

 

[Zezima]

also compared to his fh stroke, which part is longer in my video? I feel like the difference might be the distance to the table since thats a bit harder to compare to me. He might be a tad further away for me. In matches I don't get to loop from that far ever. the fh balls I get would sink down(be under the table) just behind(10cm) the white line. Thats also the length I need to put quality on the ball when receiving those sidespin serves.

Right now I can only do the slow spinny one and hope its not too high over the net and not just that I don't even dare to receive it parallel. So I am very predictable. Part of me not being able to constantly be aggressive is that I am more predictable than them so they can get me off balance before. Then it doesn't matter how much I practise fh loops.
I also feel like anyone 1500+ has some sort of weapon. Atleast one combination that they constantly try to achieve and win the points with. When I look my points won I don't really have one way of winning the points. It's all over the place. The weaker players I practise with give me the false sense of that I make progress. But in truth I can choose whatever way I want to beat them.
In terms of self reflecting in training I got much better in the last months. I know atleast 70% why the stroke failed or atleast how I need to hit the ball next time. Usually in the videos I posted you can see me doing the "right" shadow stroke after I failed some and the next balls I hit with more quality even.
I also need to practise more matchspecific serve return drills. Another problem I have here at the beginning my consistency is maybe 30-50% for example on serving sidebackspin to their bh they chop it back to my bh and then I try to open up. The longer I play the drill the more consistency I get up to lets say 70% (just bringing it on the table).
Next Training I train the same since that seems the most predictable return. It starts again at 30-50% and goes up to 70% so I don't know how I can get the consistency base level up the next session. Maybe I am not training this drill often or long enough (5min 1x-2x a week each time) also playing with 5 different trainingsballs with a mix of new and old balls. Different hall different tables etc. Different players pushing that serve with different motion etc.

i've seen your training and your consistency in training is not 90%.
whatever your consistency in practice is, it will be lower in tournament because of pressure, because you don't know the opponent, because its a different table or hall etc...and because of serve receive !
in practice / drills, you kinda know whats going on. You're mostly playing always the ball in a ideal position. In match 80% of balls are dirty which no or with spin, a bit shorter or longer, not where you expect it etc...
so its totally normal to be less consistent. Being able to play any ball is a skill, and one you don't seem to practice enough.

As for your basic shots, you must play with more with your body, especially legs, less arm. make extra efforts to stay low and knees forward due to your height. And you are too stiff and not relaxed.

Focus less on what an ideal swing backswing is, but more on the actual result and remember the feeling. Focus more on feeling stable and consistency. what good is if your shot "looks good" like textbook but lands only 40% of the time on the table.

To achieve consistency its like in music. You have to play more slowly at first. if some song is 140 bpm you don't learn it at 140bpm first. maybe 60 then 80 then 100 etc...
TT is the same. Learn by slowing down and understanding all the components of the shot and coordinate better.. you should find the pace at which your consistency is 90%. Then practice a bit faster where its only 70% and get that number up again etc... I think you want results too quickly. and it ends up being messy.

I never said my consistency in training is 90%. I was talking about the young player who never trains. He just played league matches this season thats being in the hall 1x a week to play 2-3 matches and be done with it.
Yes about the consistency part being lower in tournaments I agree..

Not sure what you mean by basic shots, but I also filmed my fh and bh drives and warmup fh loops. I refuse to believe I am too stiff because I think I am too loose atm with the entire body and need to be more stiff or more tight is the better word I believe. I used to think about tightening my core during drills 2months ago and since then I have no capacity left to remind myself of it for example.
Also if I do less with arm (I do think I do too less with the hand at contact) I am just hitting the ball flat or how I would say driving the ball with no spin.

I do try to remember the feeling but it's quickly forgotten after the training session. Right now I rely more on how the stroke needs to look like and then hope the feeling of hitting right will come...
You described it well. I am very hesitant right now because non textbook shots can feel really good aswell but I keep telling myself this is wrong, I had to start with a more open racket and not hit with closed to open racket which I want to get rid off. Still can't get it right especially in matches with the full racket open motion that I should stop hitting the ball at the back (3 o clock) The ball have either light backspin or light topspin but if my racket is fully open on the backswing and then I swing forwards sometimes I am too late and hit at the back of the ball and can swing only upwards. It's frustrating. In yesterdays tournament I sometimes hit too early on the rising point aswell because I saw my opp out of position deep into their backhand lobbying a half highish ball and I just wanted to end the point hitting to their open fh before they can get back to the table. Like this happened a lot I basically stressed myself out that I need to hit the ball as soon as it hits on my side.


About consistency part. I got told to hit really by some people. Basically I should smash and then I should add a little topspin just enough to get it over the net. I thought alright it makes sense since I am too passive with my fh topspins. So let's train at close to 100% power since in matchplay I will automatically go down to 60-80% anyway, because I am a controlled offensive player. I do have to admit especially in doubles games yesterday and some points in the singles that I got these shots off which I wouldn't have gone for before last 2 months. But that was only a few you can count with 1 hand.
1 Day before this tournament I trained at 60% topspinning with a shortened stroke but my hand and hips are not aligned yet. My hand + forearm spin is enough to topspin the ball to the whiteline and if I use my hips aswell it just flys out. Then I try to make the stroke go more forwards since I learned if I swing the elbow more forwards the arc gets lower. But then the consistency drops. Then I start with my hand a bit more lower than the ball and cut off on power.

I also have a different idea to track my "BASELINE" progress. I warmup for 5 or 10min with only fh drive and topspins. After those 5-10min I track for 5min how many topspins I do and how many went into the net or out. And compare that to my following training sessions if it gets better or not. But I feel like this might have too many different variables. Like blocking partner, different balls and tables, how I feel on that day etc.

Also suggest me some specific drills I can practise with even weaker partners (as easy as possible for them) for me it can be hard. Keep in mind they struggle to block my "weaker topspins" we are talking about 800-1200 players. So nothing complicated. Let's say 1h systemtraining and then matchplay. So drills for atleast 40min

 

[NextLevel]

Well vs the 18y you can consider a bad loss he had like 1490 rating basically same rating as me. I lost 1-3 last set 11-13. He was the better player pressuring me hard with his fh. Basically whipping through with lots of topspin even though I knew he was gonna loop to my fh I couldn't even hold the racket and missed the ball completely which rarely ever happens. He also started with a long sidespin to my bh or fh mostly.

My point being he doesn't train and has transferred this skill into match play with 90% consistency. He is doing 0 analyzing with filming himself or watching table tennis videos and I hear from others aswell that he is not training.

Maybe I try to train too textbook like instead of letting go and just care about feedback. All those players I try to beat (1850) have no textbook like fh and bh aswell. And its not like I am gonna play in bundesliga ever.

So now I am a bit inbetween either keep going like this (try to hit with textbook technique) or the other way and just figure out by hitting the balls without caring about the backswing at all. I'll think about this over the weekend because that 18y really changed how I look at training and success. It's not like the opportunities don't rise for me. I get the same balls he gets to topspin hard. But I decide to hit hard maybe 3 out of 10 times and those 3 times maybe only 1 or 2 are straight winners. And the other 7 times 4 times I go slow and controlled with placement and 3 times I miss.

tldr: Why am I even training so hard when someone who doesn't train has achieved what I try to achieve in the last 2 months.

It is dangerous to compare yourself to others in this way. As long as you enjoy training, the most important thing is to learn how to become thr best player you can be. There were some players I never beat at a certain level of experience. They had stopped training but their level.was too high for me even though they were not training. But 2 years later they could not get a game off me.

You sound like someone who is earning middle income salary then comes across the child of a rich person and asks ehy you should work when someone can just win lottery or be born lucky. You train because of you not because of someone else.

Technical training is cool and can be fun for people who like block repetition but if you care about match results, technical training is more about becoming a better player in a few years and to remove a cap on your potential. If you are into match results, random functional training or match specific training where you look at what is costing your points and improve it or use new weapons to create opportunities where they didnt exist before is the way to go. Attacking and returning serves, opening pn half long balls, short pushes to client opponents the chance to attack, backhand down the line, to the middle and wide to move the opponent and so on.

Usually I focus on attacking long serves. Attacking long serves and half long serves translates extremely well into match play because people are always serving long and very often opportunities are being thrown away by pushes because people lack the technique and judgment to feel confident attacking long serves. Also serving short and returning short and tight is harder at critical points in the match so being able to attack during those critical moments will earn you points because you arr ready to seize the opportunities.

 

[NextLevel]

also compared to his fh stroke, which part is longer in my video? I feel like the difference might be the distance to the table since thats a bit harder to compare to me. He might be a tad further away for me. In matches I don't get to loop from that far ever. the fh balls I get would sink down(be under the table) just behind(10cm) the white line. Thats also the length I need to put quality on the ball when receiving those sidespin serves.

Right now I can only do the slow spinny one and hope its not too high over the net and not just that I don't even dare to receive it parallel. So I am very predictable. Part of me not being able to constantly be aggressive is that I am more predictable than them so they can get me off balance before. Then it doesn't matter how much I practise fh loops.
I also feel like anyone 1500+ has some sort of weapon. Atleast one combination that they constantly try to achieve and win the points with. When I look my points won I don't really have one way of winning the points. It's all over the place. The weaker players I practise with give me the false sense of that I make progress. But in truth I can choose whatever way I want to beat them.
In terms of self reflecting in training I got much better in the last months. I know atleast 70% why the stroke failed or atleast how I need to hit the ball next time. Usually in the videos I posted you can see me doing the "right" shadow stroke after I failed some and the next balls I hit with more quality even.
I also need to practise more matchspecific serve return drills. Another problem I have here at the beginning my consistency is maybe 30-50% for example on serving sidebackspin to their bh they chop it back to my bh and then I try to open up. The longer I play the drill the more consistency I get up to lets say 70% (just bringing it on the table).
Next Training I train the same since that seems the most predictable return. It starts again at 30-50% and goes up to 70% so I don't know how I can get the consistency base level up the next session. Maybe I am not training this drill often or long enough (5min 1x-2x a week each time) also playing with 5 different trainingsballs with a mix of new and old balls. Different hall different tables etc. Different players pushing that serve with different motion etc.

I never said my consistency in training is 90%. I was talking about the young player who never trains. He just played league matches this season thats being in the hall 1x a week to play 2-3 matches and be done with it.
Yes about the consistency part being lower in tournaments I agree..

Not sure what you mean by basic shots, but I also filmed my fh and bh drives and warmup fh loops. I refuse to believe I am too stiff because I think I am too loose atm with the entire body and need to be more stiff or more tight is the better word I believe. I used to think about tightening my core during drills 2months ago and since then I have no capacity left to remind myself of it for example.
Also if I do less with arm (I do think I do too less with the hand at contact) I am just hitting the ball flat or how I would say driving the ball with no spin.

I do try to remember the feeling but it's quickly forgotten after the training session. Right now I rely more on how the stroke needs to look like and then hope the feeling of hitting right will come...
You described it well. I am very hesitant right now because non textbook shots can feel really good aswell but I keep telling myself this is wrong, I had to start with a more open racket and not hit with closed to open racket which I want to get rid off. Still can't get it right especially in matches with the full racket open motion that I should stop hitting the ball at the back (3 o clock) The ball have either light backspin or light topspin but if my racket is fully open on the backswing and then I swing forwards sometimes I am too late and hit at the back of the ball and can swing only upwards. It's frustrating. In yesterdays tournament I sometimes hit too early on the rising point aswell because I saw my opp out of position deep into their backhand lobbying a half highish ball and I just wanted to end the point hitting to their open fh before they can get back to the table. Like this happened a lot I basically stressed myself out that I need to hit the ball as soon as it hits on my side.


About consistency part. I got told to hit really by some people. Basically I should smash and then I should add a little topspin just enough to get it over the net. I thought alright it makes sense since I am too passive with my fh topspins. So let's train at close to 100% power since in matchplay I will automatically go down to 60-80% anyway, because I am a controlled offensive player. I do have to admit especially in doubles games yesterday and some points in the singles that I got these shots off which I wouldn't have gone for before last 2 months. But that was only a few you can count with 1 hand.
1 Day before this tournament I trained at 60% topspinning with a shortened stroke but my hand and hips are not aligned yet. My hand + forearm spin is enough to topspin the ball to the whiteline and if I use my hips aswell it just flys out. Then I try to make the stroke go more forwards since I learned if I swing the elbow more forwards the arc gets lower. But then the consistency drops. Then I start with my hand a bit more lower than the ball and cut off on power.

I also have a different idea to track my "BASELINE" progress. I warmup for 5 or 10min with only fh drive and topspins. After those 5-10min I track for 5min how many topspins I do and how many went into the net or out. And compare that to my following training sessions if it gets better or not. But I feel like this might have too many different variables. Like blocking partner, different balls and tables, how I feel on that day etc.

Also suggest me some specific drills I can practise with even weaker partners (as easy as possible for them) for me it can be hard. Keep in mind they struggle to block my "weaker topspins" we are talking about 800-1200 players. So nothing complicated. Let's say 1h systemtraining and then matchplay. So drills for atleast 40min

Find the skill the weaker player does best (push, block, serve, smash etc.) Then find good drills that let them challenge you with that skill.

The alternative is to have them serve/feed various spins as best they can and practice playing topspin against all of them.

Finally usually if taught, weaker players can feed good multiball. If you find someone who likes to train, spend the hour feeding each other in sets of 5 minutes. It is something they will get better at with practice so it is more ablut developing the right kind of relationship. Multiball is more about trying to repeat the right thing, even at a tempo that might be slow, so avoid trying to be physical to the point you lose your form. You are allowed to go slower and build up speed with time.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

also compared to his fh stroke, which part is longer in my video? I feel like the difference might be the distance to the table since thats a bit harder to compare to me. He might be a tad further away for me. In matches I don't get to loop from that far ever. the fh balls I get would sink down(be under the table) just behind(10cm) the white line. Thats also the length I need to put quality on the ball when receiving those sidespin serves.

Right now I can only do the slow spinny one and hope its not too high over the net and not just that I don't even dare to receive it parallel. So I am very predictable. Part of me not being able to constantly be aggressive is that I am more predictable than them so they can get me off balance before. Then it doesn't matter how much I practise fh loops.
I also feel like anyone 1500+ has some sort of weapon. Atleast one combination that they constantly try to achieve and win the points with. When I look my points won I don't really have one way of winning the points. It's all over the place. The weaker players I practise with give me the false sense of that I make progress. But in truth I can choose whatever way I want to beat them.
In terms of self reflecting in training I got much better in the last months. I know atleast 70% why the stroke failed or atleast how I need to hit the ball next time. Usually in the videos I posted you can see me doing the "right" shadow stroke after I failed some and the next balls I hit with more quality even.
I also need to practise more matchspecific serve return drills. Another problem I have here at the beginning my consistency is maybe 30-50% for example on serving sidebackspin to their bh they chop it back to my bh and then I try to open up. The longer I play the drill the more consistency I get up to lets say 70% (just bringing it on the table).
Next Training I train the same since that seems the most predictable return. It starts again at 30-50% and goes up to 70% so I don't know how I can get the consistency base level up the next session. Maybe I am not training this drill often or long enough (5min 1x-2x a week each time) also playing with 5 different trainingsballs with a mix of new and old balls. Different hall different tables etc. Different players pushing that serve with different motion etc.

I never said my consistency in training is 90%. I was talking about the young player who never trains. He just played league matches this season thats being in the hall 1x a week to play 2-3 matches and be done with it.
Yes about the consistency part being lower in tournaments I agree..

Not sure what you mean by basic shots, but I also filmed my fh and bh drives and warmup fh loops. I refuse to believe I am too stiff because I think I am too loose atm with the entire body and need to be more stiff or more tight is the better word I believe. I used to think about tightening my core during drills 2months ago and since then I have no capacity left to remind myself of it for example.
Also if I do less with arm (I do think I do too less with the hand at contact) I am just hitting the ball flat or how I would say driving the ball with no spin.

I do try to remember the feeling but it's quickly forgotten after the training session. Right now I rely more on how the stroke needs to look like and then hope the feeling of hitting right will come...
You described it well. I am very hesitant right now because non textbook shots can feel really good aswell but I keep telling myself this is wrong, I had to start with a more open racket and not hit with closed to open racket which I want to get rid off. Still can't get it right especially in matches with the full racket open motion that I should stop hitting the ball at the back (3 o clock) The ball have either light backspin or light topspin but if my racket is fully open on the backswing and then I swing forwards sometimes I am too late and hit at the back of the ball and can swing only upwards. It's frustrating. In yesterdays tournament I sometimes hit too early on the rising point aswell because I saw my opp out of position deep into their backhand lobbying a half highish ball and I just wanted to end the point hitting to their open fh before they can get back to the table. Like this happened a lot I basically stressed myself out that I need to hit the ball as soon as it hits on my side.


About consistency part. I got told to hit really by some people. Basically I should smash and then I should add a little topspin just enough to get it over the net. I thought alright it makes sense since I am too passive with my fh topspins. So let's train at close to 100% power since in matchplay I will automatically go down to 60-80% anyway, because I am a controlled offensive player. I do have to admit especially in doubles games yesterday and some points in the singles that I got these shots off which I wouldn't have gone for before last 2 months. But that was only a few you can count with 1 hand.
1 Day before this tournament I trained at 60% topspinning with a shortened stroke but my hand and hips are not aligned yet. My hand + forearm spin is enough to topspin the ball to the whiteline and if I use my hips aswell it just flys out. Then I try to make the stroke go more forwards since I learned if I swing the elbow more forwards the arc gets lower. But then the consistency drops. Then I start with my hand a bit more lower than the ball and cut off on power.

I also have a different idea to track my "BASELINE" progress. I warmup for 5 or 10min with only fh drive and topspins. After those 5-10min I track for 5min how many topspins I do and how many went into the net or out. And compare that to my following training sessions if it gets better or not. But I feel like this might have too many different variables. Like blocking partner, different balls and tables, how I feel on that day etc.

Also suggest me some specific drills I can practise with even weaker partners (as easy as possible for them) for me it can be hard. Keep in mind they struggle to block my "weaker topspins" we are talking about 800-1200 players. So nothing complicated. Let's say 1h systemtraining and then matchplay. So drills for atleast 40min

If your weaker partners can’t block well not gonna lie it will be difficult to make a 5 point drill rally… best thing is to help them get better at blocking so they can become your blocking partner in 2-3 months
And then you practice something else . Like you serve they push and you try to attack 90% of the balls without any mistake and kill any weak receive/chance ball…

I still repeat my point about consistency . Try to be consistent at slower speed/power and then you’ll get better at high speed power. There is no point being able to make 50 in a row in an exercise such like 2bh 2fh but at least get to 12 to be able to make 5-6 in match. When you get 12 either increase quality (speed spin and/or power)

Doesn’t mean anything if you can make one new super point in a match. It’s only one point. If it costs you 4 mistakes to make that shot it isn’t worth it.

 

[Zezima]

@NextLevel
"You train because of you not because of someone else" yeah I agree I guess I just got jealous he aquired that skill "naturally" I was working for a month..

Match wise my weakness is definetly my position at the table. Recovery after the shot and everything can be better sure but really the biggest thing I just don't seem to learn is the positional awareness.
The 18y old is not waiting for me to give him the ball in his hitzone but I do. And until then I try to cover entire table and just react with the survive first mindset. I basically want the ball to land in my hitzone or atleast close to my hitzone but then with medium pace. Until then I try to cover entire table. Obviously when I would return the ball wide to their bh or wide to their fh I am not waiting in the middle of the table but even then I don't shift my position enough to cover the wide fh/bh.
Even against him I got many oppurtunities hell he even made fun of me and served long sidespin serves to my fh. He didn't care about my opening loop yes I was looping it but it was not dangerous. He could block it off the bounce. Then I had to move forwards and loop again or my opening loop was so weak he got me off balance immediately with the block. Had many opportunites to attack half highish balls on my fh shorter but I was busy covering entire table at half distance that by the time I realized the ball is going shorter on my fh side I could just barely get the ball back too late to react and to kill or loop it. Basically he gives me the initiative back and I don't take it. I let many opportunities go to waste like that. This is also one aspect I seem to not get better because I play with the survive first mentality.

I also got higher rank because I was playing more with the mentality of just bring one more ball back let them also do mistakes. And weaker players are not patient. But 1500 seems to be the threshhold. If I want to get higher from here I need a strong weapon. This is why I opened this thread and will still work hard on my fh to make everyone fear my fh. The more they will play to my bh the more I know my fh is getting better and better.

here at 1:08 is one example of a good fh topspin by me. I am super relaxed this is from the first 3min I was saying the other day that you can watch to give me feedback on. Because here I know 100% I was relaxed and got in some good shots.

This is how the 18y was hitting his fh also (not technique wise but power and speed wise) He didn't care about the spin of the ball he just whipped through fully trusting his technique and he was so confident that he played with attacking mindset unlike me who played with surviving first mindset till I get a good ball to attack. His positional awareness was also so much higher level than me. Otherwise he wouldn't be able to block off the bounce aswell. Always passive like a drop shot block. Something I really admired and want to work on aswell.

 

[blahness]

Imo against weaker players it is not that useful to do topspin vs block since their block is terrible anyway - and it is fundamentally useless for them and not enjoyable - it just feels like bullying. Just ask them to serve and then you loop their serves and then they can attempt to block it - play out the point like that. Ask them to serve a particular spin archetype (for eg fast long sideunderspin) until that you can get like 90+% success rates looping when you know the spin. You shouldnt brute force loop these balls, it should be a medium paced loop which is super guaranteed to land. Make sure to move well. Then upgrade to whole table (can be short or long but still with same spin), then change to different spins and then after that challenge yourself with random spin (you need to identify them).

You can also ask them to receive your serves, and then loop 3rd ball. Against, same thing, you need to be super aware of what spin you served and what is coming towards you on the 3rd ball. Dont base it on 'feeling' because that is inconsistent af and makes you not precise. Table tennis is a precision sport and it pays dividends to learn to be precise especially in the art of spin reading and adapting to different spins.

 

[NextLevel]

@NextLevel
"You train because of you not because of someone else" yeah I agree I guess I just got jealous he aquired that skill "naturally" I was working for a month..

Match wise my weakness is definetly my position at the table. Recovery after the shot and everything can be better sure but really the biggest thing I just don't seem to learn is the positional awareness.
The 18y old is not waiting for me to give him the ball in his hitzone but I do. And until then I try to cover entire table and just react with the survive first mindset. I basically want the ball to land in my hitzone or atleast close to my hitzone but then with medium pace. Until then I try to cover entire table. Obviously when I would return the ball wide to their bh or wide to their fh I am not waiting in the middle of the table but even then I don't shift my position enough to cover the wide fh/bh.
Even against him I got many oppurtunities hell he even made fun of me and served long sidespin serves to my fh. He didn't care about my opening loop yes I was looping it but it was not dangerous. He could block it off the bounce. Then I had to move forwards and loop again or my opening loop was so weak he got me off balance immediately with the block. Had many opportunites to attack half highish balls on my fh shorter but I was busy covering entire table at half distance that by the time I realized the ball is going shorter on my fh side I could just barely get the ball back too late to react and to kill or loop it. Basically he gives me the initiative back and I don't take it. I let many opportunities go to waste like that. This is also one aspect I seem to not get better because I play with the survive first mentality.

I also got higher rank because I was playing more with the mentality of just bring one more ball back let them also do mistakes. And weaker players are not patient. But 1500 seems to be the threshhold. If I want to get higher from here I need a strong weapon. This is why I opened this thread and will still work hard on my fh to make everyone fear my fh. The more they will play to my bh the more I know my fh is getting better and better.

here at 1:08 is one example of a good fh topspin by me. I am super relaxed this is from the first 3min I was saying the other day that you can watch to give me feedback on. Because here I know 100% I was relaxed and got in some good shots.

This is how the 18y was hitting his fh also (not technique wise but power and speed wise) He didn't care about the spin of the ball he just whipped through fully trusting his technique and he was so confident that he played with attacking mindset unlike me who played with surviving first mindset till I get a good ball to attack. His positional awareness was also so much higher level than me. Otherwise he wouldn't be able to block off the bounce aswell. Always passive like a drop shot block. Something I really admired and want to work on aswell.

I have tried to explain this before but you don't believe me. Those are high risk topspins that require perfect timing to execute. No one plays such topspin all the time even professionals. They happen when you time the forward motion and the upward follow through relatively perfectly qith the incoming ball and they won't get the ball on the table all the time and they won't be great when tou are further from the table. Trying to belive you can consistently produce them is IMHO a fool's errand but I can be wrong, keep trying to get them if you think you can time the ball perfectly all the time and can find the right timing read the ball perfectly enough to make it work.

The thing about the 18 year old os that hr is not a world champion. You dont have footage of the match but the truth is that in reality, most players look good when you don't know how to defuse them. A player can look good hitting topspins on balls that are float, or can have a serve strategy that relies upon him getting balls that in a certain range or in certain positions ans you juat dont have the skill level currently to decommissioned them. But as your serve receive game expands, you start realizing that if you just flicked the ball or pushed the ball with sidespin or moved them to the wide forehand, their play would fall apart.

Moreover you unfortunately don't have a higher quality player to play against but it is not a bad idea to train against players who are attacking you hard and you learn to block as close to the table as you can (if i remember you back up a lot and give the opponent time with yoir defense). If you learn to block one powerful shot, then the opponent has to recover and hit two or three and then some od that power is contained.

In any case, table tennis is a very mental game and I have learned while playing it that defining any problem you have in a way that yields no solution will stagnate your game. If your opponent was 2200, then what you are saying is understandable. But if your opponent is 1500 like you, he is a good player, but he has weaknesses, you couldn't find them but they are there, in a few years you might play him again and things you couldn't do then, you might be able to do and see that things were not what you thought when you first played him. He exployed your movement but maybe it was because you couldn't frustrate his anticipation. And you do like to back off the table but from being back you dont use your extra time to increase your quality and variety. More time should mean more spin but you go for more speed which is the first thing the ball will lose when it hits the table.

For me, I have played long enough to know the strengths and weakness of my game and to accept certain things. So when I play an opponent, my goal is to put in enough effort that they have to earn victory. I am looking for where they like the ball, trying to find serve and return that works for me, testing whether they read push vs float etc. Do they move well when pulled wide? If I serve fast and long into the wide backhand, do they have the skill to spin that ball? If they push every time back to my backhand I have an attack. Ig they push long every time, I have an attack. If they serve long where are they waiting for the ball. If they serve long, I back off the able a little give myself time to attack any long ball and challenge them to serve short.

Having a good forehand is cool but it is not table tennis!