Technique correction - Trying to Fix my FH backstroke + hitting through the sponge

[sebi]

So in yesterdays training session I tried to do it.
I cut the video super short so everyone can watch the full video (its under 3min) I took like 30-40sec of each video.

I feel like without opening the arm(the video previous to this one) I achieved the same "quality" or not?

Maybe you can share your video because even when filming pros and watching them live (watching them live feels faster than on video)

I definitely think I am not 100% efficiently transferring my energy into the ball. But I think it got better. And overall training like this makes me go for these shots in trainingsmatches aswell. I do make more unforced mistakes compared to before 2-3months when I started to work on hitting harder but that's also part of the long term progression.

The question now is do I work more on this form or like this

The advantage of the above is that I can hit the ball closer to my body and I feel more control.

The advantage of the other one is it's a bit less control and also a bit longer motion. Spin wise I can't really tell the difference but speed wise it looks the same to me.

In both cases I need to keep telling myself to open up my wrist when accelerating forwards more. Thinking about that actively is a bit tough. I guess everyone else figured that out naturally except me .

And you are right when I do the shadowstroke my next strokes become really good. And then I have to adjust for the incoming ball and then the focus is lost a bit. Today I might train at a slower pace with the roboter.

My main goal is basically to get rid of this backstroke. I attached the picture.
I just watched my stroke at 1:54 in slowmo

this one. And if I compare it to ma longs:

it looks like I start my backstroke good. And then depending on the incomings ball speed I try to get "more" swing by opening the distance between my elbow and body BACKWARDS. This is important to note because when accelerating forwards you can open your arms and make a bigger circle motion but the way I do it I fuck up my swingpath at the beginning because I pull my elbow backwards more. And that makes my acceleration slower? jerkier? because when going forwards I am now trying to close the gap I pulled initially back and then I start swinging forwards.

Tell me if I am wrong but I think there lies the problem why my stroke becomes unreliably and is consistent when I don't pull my elbow that far back.

So in short dont let the elbow go that much back but keep it closer to the body and open the elbow(armpit) when the elbow has reached same line as hips.

You slap a little bit trough the ball.
You should try to stay in on plane woth your arm.
Try to rotate you hip more. When your hip rotates foreward your right knees has to drop.
Try to find a pressure point on the right foot press from there and simultaneously rotate your right hip forward.
Your body follows the hip

Back swin just try to not let you hand fall to far down which you do good already. An open elbow and hand up.
But dont open the angle just do a slight pretension

 

[Zezima]

You slap a little bit trough the ball.
You should try to stay in on plane woth your arm.
Try to rotate you hip more. When your hip rotates foreward your right knees has to drop.
Try to find a pressure point on the right foot press from there and simultaneously rotate your right hip forward.
Your body follows the hip

Back swin just try to not let you hand fall to far down which you do good already. An open elbow and hand up.
But dont open the angle just do a slight pretension

This is from Timo. He even advocates for it. I seem to do it aswell but maybe too much. His elbow isn't going that far back from this angle atleast.

I also do whatever you wrote clearly to be seen at this timestamp:

So I wonder if you actually watched the 3min video.
Not sure what you mean by rotate hip more.

That the results of your two approaches feels similar is not surprising because it is in my opinion limited by your trainings partner, since you limit yourself to match his capabilities to get repetitions.
AND your are limited also by your recovery. This also something that I experience with my own FH. I could go a lot faster. Good when it is the finish stroke to win the point. Bad when it comes back and my recovery is to slow.

But you have not mentioned, which of two approaches felt better (more natural). I personally think that the second video looks a lot more effortless than the first one and therefore has more potential for the future.
Change the drill and don't focus on many repetitions. My coach an I train, serve open up and then follow through with the winner (by place and/or speed). If you don't want the serve part. Just hit two medium TS and then go all in for the winner and see how consistent you can achieve this with different place (diagonal, mid table and long line).

BTW: Swing path (up and/or forward) needs to be adapted depending on your distance to the table. The closer the more forward, further away the additional up component is needed to clear the net).

Another aspect. For your multi ball training, tell your partner to get lower, when serving the balls. If he want to get top spin into the ball and keep it low over table and net (similar to an active block), he standing way to upright to do this. He needs to be behind the table and hit the ball spin a topspin motion at about net height.

I don't think my form should fall apart against weaker opponents even. Especially not if I am using more slower and consistent shots.
We also have to differentiate between point ending strokes and just high quality topspins pressuring them hard. Point ending ones you don't care about if they bring the ball back or not.

the closer to the table and the more forwards you go the higher likelyhood of hitting it out if you don't give the ball enough spin. So I wouldn't make that a big in stone set formula. This is also too shallow since we don't know what kind of ball we are talking about and what our timing at contact will be.

Anyway let's talk about the points I wrote in my last comment instead.

 

[vossi39]

We also have to differentiate between point ending strokes and just high quality topspins pressuring them hard. Point ending ones you don't care about if they bring the ball back or not.

No. Because your goal is to play faster and harder, which means it is a final shot for current (limited) practicing partner and will become repetitive with your higher level practicing partners.
So you will never find out, what technique changes will allow you for more consistent harder top spins until you practicing them. Your forearm snap needs to become quicker and more explosive, which you can not "feel" if you limit the speed because of repetitions.

You did not answer the question, which "form" feels better during your exercises.

 

[Zezima]

No. Because your goal is to play faster and harder, which means it is a final shot for current (limited) practicing partner and will become repetitive with your higher level practicing partners.
So you will never find out, what technique changes will allow you for more consistent harder top spins until you practicing them. Your forearm snap needs to become quicker and more explosive, which you can not "feel" if you limit the speed because of repetitions.

You did not answer the question, which "form" feels better during your exercises.

I need repetition aswell. Unless I do multiball training there I go try harder.
It also makes no sense to go really hard on FH vs Block. Especially at the beginning of the training session its about having control and get a feel for the new technique and see if I do the weight transfer correctly without having to go 80-100%. Later on I can switch to drills where I do serve then 3rd ball attack or some sort of open up and then go hard on the following ball. Even though I do that the focus right now are still on the basics.

And I wrote down my thoughts on the main comment here not sure if the link works as expected:

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/technique-correction-trying-to-fix-my-fh-backstroke-hitting-through-the-sponge.38547/post-561166

I also wrote with which technique I have more control (the one without straightening the arm).I also do too many balls over 3min atleast to hit consistently winners on each shot. Thats very draining on my body. Also the stroke gets sloppy towards the end which I don't want my body to memorize.

Also about the straightening arm I saw a video of samsonov who topspins without straightening his arm and keeps the angle at 90° throughout.

When I do shadowstroke I seem to feel the extra energy and my arm runs through more natural similiar what you saw me doing in the videos and then hitting good after. This alone shows that I am doing very different techniques throughout.

Right now I am going to practise not throwing my elbow too far back and focus more on forwards acceleration. Today I am very limited with not having a good trainingspartner and my brother will also not come for multiballs so will see.

I will just try try aspect more with the elbow part. I feel like I am very close to the technique I am happy with.

Edit: Seeing I have even more powerful loops than samsonov and yet he got this far just with control also tells me that I will not dwell for too long on static high powerful loops and will incooperate more footwork. Having a shorter efficient Loop with maybe losing 10-20% speed is still better when done consistently than having those percentages and maybe 5-10% more straight winners but 20%-30% more errors in games and also which works on a specific ball and only if I am in position which lets be honest rarely ever happens where you also have time for that kind of backstroke. Thats why I will only work on the elbow aspect now since for my taste its too much thrown back still and be done with it from the technical aspect.

Will report back my findings

 

[kindof99]

Your form is getting better. But still, it is quite obvious that your hand and body/leg do not work quite together very well. Many people suggested learning drive first, but it seems that it is not an option to you.

Watch more tutorial videos might help. For adults without coaching, the understanding of the game will be the ceiling of how you can play.

 

[dingyibvs]

This is from Timo. He even advocates for it. I seem to do it aswell but maybe too much. His elbow isn't going that far back from this angle atleast.

I also do whatever you wrote clearly to be seen at this timestamp:

So I wonder if you actually watched the 3min video.
Not sure what you mean by rotate hip more.


I don't think my form should fall apart against weaker opponents even. Especially not if I am using more slower and consistent shots.
We also have to differentiate between point ending strokes and just high quality topspins pressuring them hard. Point ending ones you don't care about if they bring the ball back or not.

the closer to the table and the more forwards you go the higher likelyhood of hitting it out if you don't give the ball enough spin. So I wouldn't make that a big in stone set formula. This is also too shallow since we don't know what kind of ball we are talking about and what our timing at contact will be.

Anyway let's talk about the points I wrote in my last comment instead.

I've watched some segments of all your videos and this one has the best technique. I think having a little time in between shots really helps you maintain the technique. Next step is to be able to execute it in loops vs block, where you'll have far less time in between shots and have to adjust more for each shot.

The issue with the other video (focus on sponge activation one) isn't that you're keeping the elbow closer to the body, it's that in doing so you're tightening up your entire arm and you're losing the looseness in both the elbow and the wrist. You can absolutely keep the elbow closer and get a more compact swing, you lose a bit of power but even some pros do it to gain speed and accuracy, but you can't lose your looseness everywhere else. It's a delicate balance, keeping yourself loose enough but not flappy like a noodle.

I've PM'd you on how to train for that, I think you need to go back to it and explore it again. I'll PM you on that.

 

[vossi39]

@dingyibvs : so you also agree that it looks better and more fluent when he tried to opening the forearm? Glad I'm not alone with my view.

However he doesn't feel good with it.

 

[dingyibvs]

@dingyibvs : so you also agree that it looks better and more fluent when he tried to opening the forearm? Glad I'm not alone with my view.

However he doesn't feel good with it.

He does, but it sounds like he thinks it has to do with his elbow positioning relative to the body (i.e. farther vs closer), but it's more because he was keeping the shoulder looser (i.e. opening up the forearm more) during one and tighter during the other, along with keeping the wrist bit looser as well.

The following is more for @Zezima: The shoulder is the most flexible joint in the body, and its motion in TT is complicated. In biomechanical terms, you need to limit the shoulder range of motion in the flexion/extension direction (think of the arm motion in walking), so the arm doesn't fall behind the body too much during the forward swing. However, you need to keep it loose in the internal/external rotation direction (think of the arm motion when clapping hands). The FH stroke is more like clapping hands than tossing a ball.

 

[vossi39]

He does, but it sounds like he thinks it has to do with his elbow positioning relative to the body (i.e. farther vs closer), but it's more because he was keeping the shoulder looser (i.e. opening up the forearm more) during one and tighter during the other, along with keeping the wrist bit looser as well.

On my question which form (static forearm angle or opening up) he prefers (feels better with), he stated:

"I also wrote with which technique I have more control (the one without straightening the arm)" and "will just try try aspect more with the elbow part. I feel like I am very close to the technique I am happy with." Then he also quoted that Samsonov does not required it to get to world class.

 

[dingyibvs]

On my question which form (static forearm angle or opening up) he prefers (feels better with), he stated:

"I also wrote with which technique I have more control (the one without straightening the arm)" and "will just try try aspect more with the elbow part. I feel like I am very close to the technique I am happy with." Then he also quoted that Samsonov does not required it to get to world class.

But I think he and perhaps you as well are missing what's different and what stayed the same with Samsonov's motion. Samsonov kept his elbow close to the body (i.e. adducted at the shoulder more), but he did not tighten up in the internal/external rotation aspect (i.e. the clapping motion). Again, I want to make it clear that what made his 2nd video's motion look tighter is not because his elbow is closer to his body, but because everything else became tighter (wrist, internal/external rotation).

 

[Zezima]

Your form is getting better. But still, it is quite obvious that your hand and body/leg do not work quite together very well. Many people suggested learning drive first, but it seems that it is not an option to you.

Watch more tutorial videos might help. For adults without coaching, the understanding of the game will be the ceiling of how you can play.

Why not an option to me? I start every session by driving the ball first for 2min or so. I actually lowered the time doing drives because I want the looping feeling to remember and found out the longer I warm up drives the longer it takes me after to loop the ball. 2 years ago I couldn't drive but could loop from the first ball get go. Now it's the opposite. Drive works super easy but not Loops. It was worse though for over a year (needed like 10-30min to loop consistently). I can loop almost from the get go now aswell.

I don't think anyone else has watched more videos than me. Which comes with the downsides of having mismatched information and nothing specific to my body structure and my personal problems.

 

[Zezima]

I've watched some segments of all your videos and this one has the best technique. I think having a little time in between shots really helps you maintain the technique. Next step is to be able to execute it in loops vs block, where you'll have far less time in between shots and have to adjust more for each shot.

The issue with the other video (focus on sponge activation one) isn't that you're keeping the elbow closer to the body, it's that in doing so you're tightening up your entire arm and you're losing the looseness in both the elbow and the wrist. You can absolutely keep the elbow closer and get a more compact swing, you lose a bit of power but even some pros do it to gain speed and accuracy, but you can't lose your looseness everywhere else. It's a delicate balance, keeping yourself loose enough but not flappy like a noodle.

I've PM'd you on how to train for that, I think you need to go back to it and explore it again. I'll PM you on that.

after 1:56 I do it vs block aswell. Have you watched it? It was definetly harder for me to keep the consistency without rushing and shortening the stroke.

Edit:
It's a delicate balance, keeping yourself loose enough but not flappy like a noodle.
This is how it feels with the last video with the more open arm. Before with the 90° angle I was "loose- tighter" I would say compact. If I were too tight I don't think I could produce that same quality. I actually like the quality of those balls aswell but didn't like the backstroke "motion".

With the more open arm version I do feel like a flappy noodle thats why It doesn't feel that "good" (yet). That 10-20% beginning when accelerating forwards feels super uncontrolled since I am super loose there. And after the initial 20% of the swingpath (forwards) I feel I got control of my arm again.
It's a bit complicated to explain I think

 

[sebi]

So in yesterdays training session I tried to do it.
I cut the video super short so everyone can watch the full video (its under 3min) I took like 30-40sec of each video.

I feel like without opening the arm(the video previous to this one) I achieved the same "quality" or not?

Maybe you can share your video because even when filming pros and watching them live (watching them live feels faster than on video)

I definitely think I am not 100% efficiently transferring my energy into the ball. But I think it got better. And overall training like this makes me go for these shots in trainingsmatches aswell. I do make more unforced mistakes compared to before 2-3months when I started to work on hitting harder but that's also part of the long term progression.

The question now is do I work more on this form or like this

The advantage of the above is that I can hit the ball closer to my body and I feel more control.

The advantage of the other one is it's a bit less control and also a bit longer motion. Spin wise I can't really tell the difference but speed wise it looks the same to me.

In both cases I need to keep telling myself to open up my wrist when accelerating forwards more. Thinking about that actively is a bit tough. I guess everyone else figured that out naturally except me .

And you are right when I do the shadowstroke my next strokes become really good. And then I have to adjust for the incoming ball and then the focus is lost a bit. Today I might train at a slower pace with the roboter.

My main goal is basically to get rid of this backstroke. I attached the picture.
I just watched my stroke at 1:54 in slowmo

this one. And if I compare it to ma longs:

it looks like I start my backstroke good. And then depending on the incomings ball speed I try to get "more" swing by opening the distance between my elbow and body BACKWARDS. This is important to note because when accelerating forwards you can open your arms and make a bigger circle motion but the way I do it I fuck up my swingpath at the beginning because I pull my elbow backwards more. And that makes my acceleration slower? jerkier? because when going forwards I am now trying to close the gap I pulled initially back and then I start swinging forwards.

Tell me if I am wrong but I think there lies the problem why my stroke becomes unreliably and is consistent when I don't pull my elbow that far back.

So in short dont let the elbow go that much back but keep it closer to the body and open the elbow(armpit) when the elbow has reached same line as hips.

You slap a little bit trough the ball.
You should try to stay in on plane woth your arm.
Try to rotate you hip more. When your hip rotates foreward your right knees has to drop.
Try to find a pressure point on the right foot press from there and simultaneously rotate your right hip forward.
Your body follows the hip

Back swin just try to not let you hand fall to far down which is good in your back swing
Also open up your elbow and your wrist
But only slightly back and pre tension it to snap with your elbow and wrist.

Fan Zehndongs forehand is a bit to far if you look at it from a scientific point of view. If you open up a bit less like 170, 165 degrees your muscles can excelerate faster and your initial movement can also be faster

 

[Zezima]

He does, but it sounds like he thinks it has to do with his elbow positioning relative to the body (i.e. farther vs closer), but it's more because he was keeping the shoulder looser (i.e. opening up the forearm more) during one and tighter during the other, along with keeping the wrist bit looser as well.

The following is more for @Zezima: The shoulder is the most flexible joint in the body, and its motion in TT is complicated. In biomechanical terms, you need to limit the shoulder range of motion in the flexion/extension direction (think of the arm motion in walking), so the arm doesn't fall behind the body too much during the forward swing. However, you need to keep it loose in the internal/external rotation direction (think of the arm motion when clapping hands). The FH stroke is more like clapping hands than tossing a ball.

sorry I had to read this comment many times and yet still not sure if I understood correctly.
When I said elbow positioning I mean exactly that the arm "shouldnt" fall that far behind in my case with the new vid. I just used elbow but I guess you could say I rotate the shoulder back too much aswell. I just thought elbow thing is easier to visualize what I am trying to explain its not the cause obviously.

so basically it feels like I am pulling my arm further back and then when accelerating forwards again it becomes a bit off. For me the cue is having the elbow not too far back (same as not pulling shoulder back) only turn sideways and when accelerating the forearm opens automatically anyway the wrist (the hand claps a bit behind backstroke of clapping hands basically) so the only other thing I have to remind myself is rotating my wrist so the inside of the wrist shows more to the table than to the floor (racket angle)

 

[dingyibvs]

after 1:56 I do it vs block aswell. Have you watched it? It was definetly harder for me to keep the consistency without rushing and shortening the stroke.

Edit:
It's a delicate balance, keeping yourself loose enough but not flappy like a noodle.
This is how it feels with the last video with the more open arm. Before with the 90° angle I was "loose- tighter" I would say compact. If I were too tight I don't think I could produce that same quality. I actually like the quality of those balls aswell but didn't like the backstroke "motion".

With the more open arm version I do feel like a flappy noodle thats why It doesn't feel that "good" (yet). That 10-20% beginning when accelerating forwards feels super uncontrolled since I am super loose there. And after the initial 20% of the swingpath (forwards) I feel I got control of my arm again.
It's a bit complicated to explain I think

Yeah I saw it, and generally it looked good. Don't worry about shortening the stroke, it's natural when the pace picks up. So long as you don't lose the essence of the stroke you'll be fine.

As for the feel, everyone is different. I think what you define as flappy noodle is actually good. You want to get that feel that with the elbow closer to the body motion as well, assuming that's the direction you want to go.

 

[jk1980]

So after reviewing the old footage against that Theo young guy that never trains: If the match is anything similar to the old one, than you made it the most easy for him to attack. in the old footage he just powerloops open balls without any noticable spin. You just lob the balls over and these are basically the most easy balls to attack because even the most amateur youngsters do train exactly that. Looping long balls without underspin from afar. If your recent encounter with him was similar, than i can understand how he had such a "high" percentage for winners.

Now trying to emulate this and working on a killer forehand against easy balls is not what will make you any better in games, because on your level there will be nobody who would be so stupid to give you these easy balls to attack. The will either push with backspin or loop themselves. Both of these resulting in 5 times harder balls to attack. You wont encounter an opponent that will only lob the ball over to you to finish, hoping you would not be consistent enough to put them away.
If you really want to develop a killer forehand you should rather develop a good strong opening loop kill against decent backspin. The main challenge here for you will be to actually stand low (your recent videos of topspin show you standing quite upright) and use a good acceleration to use a forward stroke not an upward one.

Receiving a backspin ball to your forehand will happen 10 times more in a match than somebody lobbying over an easy ball for you to attack.

All the worry about hitting through the sponge is futile if you use easy to activate tensors like the G-1 or the like. That is something to worry about with rubbers where there is a distinct difference between engaging sponge and not, but G1 surely is not one of them. We are talking about rubbers with more than 39° DHS scale hardness and not your "easy to play" G-1. This is also what makes the G-1 that great. you really dont need to worry about activating the sponge, because you will activate it most of the time.

 

[sebi]

This is from Timo. He even advocates for it. I seem to do it aswell but maybe too much. His elbow isn't going that far back from this angle atleast.

I also do whatever you wrote clearly to be seen at this timestamp:

So I wonder if you actually watched the 3min video.
Not sure what you mean by rotate hip more.


I don't think my form should fall apart against weaker opponents even. Especially not if I am using more slower and consistent shots.
We also have to differentiate between point ending strokes and just high quality topspins pressuring them hard. Point ending ones you don't care about if they bring the ball back or not.

the closer to the table and the more forwards you go the higher likelyhood of hitting it out if you don't give the ball enough spin. So I wouldn't make that a big in stone set formula. This is also too shallow since we don't know what kind of ball we are talking about and what our timing at contact will be.

Anyway let's talk about the points I wrote in my last comment instead.

sometimes you do sometimes you don´t drop your knee,
look at ma long look at fan zehndong none of them slap.
Also sometimes your follow trough is off you hit the ball and then rotate, your hip and body rotates so you don´t have to slap and arm can concentrate to stay in on plane, looks like your blad and elbow are not in the same plane.
It might be that you stand to tall.
But all in all your forehand looks very good but for this kind of training there is a lot of different movement going on from on top spin to the next.

timo is old school technique so i ma long fzd and so on, modern game look at harimoto, xue fei, xiang peng, Zhou Qihao even yunger look at benyamin faraji. none of them slap.

I think a good example for a slapping player is Annet Kaufmann, and she struggls against better players lost to Shin Yubin, and everytime she tried to top spin and couldn´t just counter spin she made a lot of mistakes that way

When your knee doesn´t drop but stays up, so you don´t roll over your foot, you don´t rotate your hip but you push your bum to the other side. it´s importent to rotate and to do the weight transfer.

As is said your techique is already pretty good, but some fine details might hold you back. Biomechanically you can´t generate as much spin as someone who stays in on plane with their whole arm, and who has a good initiation of impulses so when to activate elbow when wrist when shoulder.
Sometimes you elbow is to early while you didn´t even bring your elbow up you generate force a lot with your bicep. I think thats because you hit the ball to close to the body and your elbow should be bit further away and you need to stay lower.

 

[Zezima]

So after reviewing the old footage against that Theo young guy that never trains: If the match is anything similar to the old one, than you made it the most easy for him to attack. in the old footage he just powerloops open balls without any noticable spin. You just lob the balls over and these are basically the most easy balls to attack because even the most amateur youngsters do train exactly that. Looping long balls without underspin from afar. If your recent encounter with him was similar, than i can understand how he had such a "high" percentage for winners.

Now trying to emulate this and working on a killer forehand against easy balls is not what will make you any better in games, because on your level there will be nobody who would be so stupid to give you these easy balls to attack. The will either push with backspin or loop themselves. Both of these resulting in 5 times harder balls to attack. You wont encounter an opponent that will only lob the ball over to you to finish, hoping you would not be consistent enough to put them away.
If you really want to develop a killer forehand you should rather develop a good strong opening loop kill against decent backspin. The main challenge here for you will be to actually stand low (your recent videos of topspin show you standing quite upright) and use a good acceleration to use a forward stroke not an upward one.

Receiving a backspin ball to your forehand will happen 10 times more in a match than somebody lobbying over an easy ball for you to attack.

All the worry about hitting through the sponge is futile if you use easy to activate tensors like the G-1 or the like. That is something to worry about with rubbers where there is a distinct difference between engaging sponge and not, but G1 surely is not one of them. We are talking about rubbers with more than 39° DHS scale hardness and not your "easy to play" G-1. This is also what makes the G-1 that great. you really dont need to worry about activating the sponge, because you will activate it most of the time.

It was similar but higher quality obviously. I was rated 1300 something back then and now I am rated a few points higher than him although after this tournament he might be slightly ahead now.
This time he could counter topspin aswell. If I gave him a harder ball he would set up with a setup fh TS until I give him a weak enough ball for him to finish.
Against backspin I still loop too "safe" in Training I do try to be more aggressive with my open ups but I realize I am too focused on lifting the ball and forget to rotate my hips forwards. If I have an opponent who just slaps my opening balls only then I would feel forced to use hips and loop forwards. Right now the safer loop feels better to use.

"Receiving a backspin ball to your forehand will happen 10 times more in a match than somebody lobbying over an easy ball for you to attack."
I mean you saw that game I just posted. I do seem to get quite a bit of those fh balls. Some shorter higher, some longer etc. Lots of opportunities. Tbh unless I force it with a short BS serve to their fh they almost always push to my bh mostly.

I have been playing with G1 for over a year before d09c and I am pretty sure I didn't active the sponge back then. But that was just my technique. I was almost always brushing the ball and being scared of hitting it out I was also not hitting hard.

Todays training session went great. I had a weaker player who struggled with blocking even though I didn't go that fast. Eventually he got bored with doing block mistakes and wanted to do something active where he was doing mistakes aswell. So no long rallys. I then started to train with the youth player (the one with glasses and slim) He was blocking much much better. Then we did drills like short serve I push long he opens up (he is pretty good at this) and idk one of those rare days where I countered his open ups which were not even that high most of the time with a 90%. Even he got mad at himself and went like: "how is that possible". So that was a big confidence boost for me atleast.
Also beat the youth coach 3-0 or 3-1.
What I found out was I need to do more drills where I have to loop parallel. Somehow my loops gets better for the entire training session. I think that has to do with me being forced to open up my wrist. I also told him to serve me half long/long tomahawk service to my backhand and fh and I open up. Which worked quite well aswell. I just can't powerloop them yet. I always go slight spinny just above the net with low to medium pace. But thats enough for now I think. Backhand receive seems better and more active especially if I know its sidebackspin tomahawk.

So in short training felt good I won't upload footage this time since my battery ran out and the footage with the first dude is not worth watching.
One thing I need to decide from now on is the opening the arm part. If I purely focus on getting quality topspin I don't seem to open up my arm or only 5-10°. I am also almost never late to the ball since I have to mainly focus on accelearting forwards and not closing the forearm aswell(only talking about block balls vs backspin balls I open my arm automatically) With the open arm I do struggle against fast blocks especially if I am close to the table.
But I do think opening arm is better for long term. I just need to work on faster recovery I think.

 

[blahness]

@dingyibvs : so you also agree that it looks better and more fluent when he tried to opening the forearm? Glad I'm not alone with my view.

However he doesn't feel good with it.

I would be the 3rd person to agree with that - it actually looks pro-like with that video.

 

[NakiMaki]

This is from Timo. He even advocates for it. I seem to do it aswell but maybe too much. His elbow isn't going that far back from this angle atleast.

I also do whatever you wrote clearly to be seen at this timestamp:

So I wonder if you actually watched the 3min video.
Not sure what you mean by rotate hip more.


I don't think my form should fall apart against weaker opponents even. Especially not if I am using more slower and consistent shots.
We also have to differentiate between point ending strokes and just high quality topspins pressuring them hard. Point ending ones you don't care about if they bring the ball back or not.

the closer to the table and the more forwards you go the higher likelyhood of hitting it out if you don't give the ball enough spin. So I wouldn't make that a big in stone set formula. This is also too shallow since we don't know what kind of ball we are talking about and what our timing at contact will be.

Anyway let's talk about the points I wrote in my last comment instead.

Looks better. The high quality loops are good, and i wouldn't comment on that. Looks good to me. Its noticable when you have to move tightness in the should and upper arm sets in, try being mindful of that.

When you have little time, for example when you have someone blocking for you. Engage hips first and then swing arm. It has to be short due to the little amount of time you have. But its important that when you attack turn hips first. Even if the arm can't complete the "correct" swing, then adequete power will come from the hip rotation.