Reading Spin + Tactics

[Zezima]

This is a long video since we played 2 matches in a row. 1-3 and 2-3 (we didn't change sides in the last set because I thought I am 2-1 up and he didn't want to disturb me because I was focused on serving)

Anyway win or lose doesn't matter here.

He pressured me hard with his serves even though they were 99% long serves. I just can't read his backspin and topspin serves maybe he was even doing no spin ones aswell. The short no spin serves I had no problems with.

It just annoyed me that even though more than half of the times I was attacking the serve somehow by guessing the spin on the ball and praying that I am somewhat overwriting the spin on the ball to bring it okeish on the table.
It's also crazy to me that I can't read his serves because it's a backhand serve so I should be able to know what spin is on the ball (I feel like it's easier to disguise the spin with the fh pendulum serves)
And the fact he served it long and made me guess (my chances being 1/3 to guess is right) meant he was ahead just by serves 2/3 of the time.
The sets I won were mostly due to me guessing the spin right.
31:37 is a good example. Even in slowmo I don't understand why this ball doesn't go over. It looks like its just sidespin on the ball.
The fact I can't even guess the spin right when looking frame by frame makes it really annoying to get better at this aspect. I struggle a lot when people serve with open racket face and can serve backspin and topspin too. Maybe there is a good video about explaining these type of serves. Because the obvious once are when the elbow goes up or racket chops below after contact..

I also feel like my distance to the table during game is just wrong even though I seem to be doing the right stroke sometimes like here:

Good backhand topspin receive in my book. Then he takes it super early close to the white line. And I just don't realize that this ball will come shorter back? Usually when I topspin I should be doublejumping backwards a bit and then play from half distance only moving sideways and maybe just a tiny bit double jump again.
How can I get better at this? Is stuff like this just knowledge that I should memorize (eg. I loop long to the white line and they block at the rising phase that I have to already move forwards? How can I aquire this skill of knowing where I need to move instead of brainlesly playing and doing the same positional mistakes?

I could go on and go on but it would get too confusing talking about 100 different mistakes I am doing in this match. So let's focus only on the most important ones and maybe easiest to fix (and how to).

I also don't know his rating he comes from germany to train here very rarely but I would assume he is around 1700. He can fh smash fh spinny loop fh sidespin loop, bh chop (in a way like truls changing pace and spin short/long) and a very good serve (everyone else also struggles with his serves).

 

[NextLevel]

The serves are so long, and he never serves to bring you in, so you could step a foot or two back and make a quality return. You are trying to take the ball too early in the trajectory to read it because you are too close to the table. Whenever I am struggling with someone's serve like that, I get lower and take a step or two back from the table. Because when you are too close to the table, you are so focused on touching the ball you might not read it. But when you are far back and have to move in, you can't rush to touch the ball, you need to read it and prepare a stroke. Makes the short balls slightly harder, but since his short serve also comes fairly deep, it shouldn't be a big issue.

In and out footwork is something people train as well as side to side. You just haven't trained it so you will do it using your own natural athleticism on most points. but if you train it, your response to short blocks and serves will be better.

 

[Metaxa]

You serve and immediately retreat. Why do you do that? Force yourself to stay closer to the table and play aggressively. You are still young, so you need to use more speed and agility to put pressure on your opponent.

 

[merlin el mago]

It all depends the other player skills...

Mastering serve & receive it's an art.

 

[NextLevel]

You serve and immediately retreat. Why do you do that? Force yourself to stay closer to the table and play aggressively. You are still young, so you need to use more speed and agility to put pressure on your opponent.

It is because he has been told to find a good rallying distance so he takes this advice without assessing the quality and nature of the opponent.

 

[ajtatosmano2]

You serve and immediately retreat. Why do you do that? Force yourself to stay closer to the table and play aggressively. You are still young, so you need to use more speed and agility to put pressure

Playing with half power won't work against those long serves against backspin. If you don't know much much sidespin or backspin is on the ball, either step back and loop it bravely, or just contact it right after the bounce, without moving your racket (like a short touch/push). Looping is better, but you might miss more, just putting it over the net is safer, but it will pop up a little.

 

[Zezima]

The serves are so long, and he never serves to bring you in, so you could step a foot or two back and make a quality return. You are trying to take the ball too early in the trajectory to read it because you are too close to the table. Whenever I am struggling with someone's serve like that, I get lower and take a step or two back from the table. Because when you are too close to the table, you are so focused on touching the ball you might not read it. But when you are far back and have to move in, you can't rush to touch the ball, you need to read it and prepare a stroke. Makes the short balls slightly harder, but since his short serve also comes fairly deep, it shouldn't be a big issue.

In and out footwork is something people train as well as side to side. You just haven't trained it so you will do it using your own natural athleticism on most points. but if you train it, your response to short blocks and serves will be better.

One of you say I go immediately back and the other says stay close to the table.

In the last few sets or in the last set atleast I stood even further back where I couldnt reach the table with a stretched arm even. You might not be able to see in the video. Since I was on the opposite side.

Both topspin and backspin / no spin or pure sidespin balls travel about same speed. Topspin kicks a bit faster but by the time I see the kick I already decided what stroke I am going for (what swingpath more upwards or forwards)

I would need to watch again if I did more receive mistakes in the last set but I assume nothing changed since I lost the last set and won 2 sets staying at my normal receive position.

Ye havent trained in and out really only when looping I did it a bit but not against shorter and then longer blocks or chop blocks. My partner needs to have that skill otherwise only possible with multiball. My partner is just learning to feed multiballs.

I still need to understand his motion when he serves top only side and with backspin. I couldnt figure it out just by seeing the trajectory and change of balls speed. He can serve backspin that is also fast. Same speed with topspin too... its difficult...

 

[Zezima]

Playing with half power won't work against those long serves against backspin. If you don't know much much sidespin or backspin is on the ball, either step back and loop it bravely, or just contact it right after the bounce, without moving your racket (like a short touch/push). Looping is better, but you might miss more, just putting it over the net is safer, but it will pop up a little.

I wouldnt mind if the ball had higher arc. He seems to block and chop it anyway. So I felt like if I survived his serve and reset my stance I was favored in the rally.

This is also how I tried when looping. I didnt go for full power but I wanted to overwrite the inc spin whatever it was. But thats just a stupid guessing game. Is there no pattern he does with his racket contact?

Just holding the racket (you still need to know what angle) is just bad. I would rather loop

 

[NextLevel]

One of you say I go immediately back and the other says stay close to the table.

In the last few sets or in the last set atleast I stood even further back where I couldnt reach the table with a stretched arm even. You might not be able to see in the video. Since I was on the opposite side.

Both topspin and backspin / no spin or pure sidespin balls travel about same speed. Topspin kicks a bit faster but by the time I see the kick I already decided what stroke I am going for (what swingpath more upwards or forwards)

I would need to watch again if I did more receive mistakes in the last set but I assume nothing changed since I lost the last set and won 2 sets staying at my normal receive position.

Ye havent trained in and out really only when looping I did it a bit but not against shorter and then longer blocks or chop blocks. My partner needs to have that skill otherwise only possible with multiball. My partner is just learning to feed multiballs.

I still need to understand his motion when he serves top only side and with backspin. I couldnt figure it out just by seeing the trajectory and change of balls speed. He can serve backspin that is also fast. Same speed with topspin too... its difficult...

To return serve, it can help to wait to see the ball. Going back doesn't mean running back, it means giving yourself a chance to see the return before hitting the ball. Even just standing with one leg slightly back and then moving it in on serve can keep you active while tracking the serve.

That said, I wouldn't say you lost the match because of serve return but since you don't care about the result, it doesn't matter. His serves are clearly illegal. My point though is that you are not misreading the spin per se, it is more that the quality on the ball is enough that you can't generate enough over a short distance to match it because it is a long serve.

There are also ways to address the sidespin he is generating to be somewhat safter with your return, but they may create higher and attackable balls.

 

[Zezima]

To return serve, it can help to wait to see the ball. Going back doesn't mean running back, it means giving yourself a chance to see the return before hitting the ball. Even just standing with one leg slightly back and then moving it in on serve can keep you active while tracking the serve.

That said, I wouldn't say you lost the match because of serve return but since you don't care about the result, it doesn't matter. His serves are clearly illegal. My point though is that you are not misreading the spin per se, it is more that the quality on the ball is enough that you can't generate enough over a short distance to match it because it is a long serve.

There are also ways to address the sidespin he is generating to be somewhat safter with your return, but they may create higher and attackable balls.

This is the thing I just don't see it. Again I can't even tell when watching the serves in slowmo. It's not that illegal imo. I think he just throws it a bit towards him thats it. Technically that should make it harder for him to put quality on the ball. Idk maybe I am smoking and he served 80% no spin /slight sidespin.

Anyway even if I waited and waited I couldn't understand the spin

 

[dingyibvs]

You're right that his serves are primarily sidespin, the top/back spin variations only have a little bit of top/back in each. The sidespin is what messes up your timing. You messed up the service receive at 31:37 because the ball was farther away than you expected, so you contacted the ball when your racket is more closed than you intended.

Against players who serve a lot of sidespin you need to get your racket closer to the ball and brush forward. It's a bit different from the usual BH technique, which is a bit more left to right. The usual BH technique has more power, but if you really send your arm forward it'll 1) help your timing a lot as a sidespin ball's curving to the left or right makes timing more difficult, and 2) make your own forward going spin more dominant over the sidespin so it goes where you want it to go rather than eating your opponent's sidespin.

 

[Zezima]

You're right that his serves are primarily sidespin, the top/back spin variations only have a little bit of top/back in each. The sidespin is what messes up your timing. You messed up the service receive at 31:37 because the ball was farther away than you expected, so you contacted the ball when your racket is more closed than you intended.

Against players who serve a lot of sidespin you need to get your racket closer to the ball and brush forward. It's a bit different from the usual BH technique, which is a bit more left to right. The usual BH technique has more power, but if you really send your arm forward it'll 1) help your timing a lot as a sidespin ball's curving to the left or right makes timing more difficult, and 2) make your own forward going spin more dominant over the sidespin so it goes where you want it to go rather than eating your opponent's sidespin.

Since it was his backhand serve and the sidespin makes it curve to my fh side.

Should my stroke be a bit snappier and more upwards so in case of its being backspin it has a good low arc and if its topspin it will be higher but wont fly out?

The sidespin was only annoying to hit the ball I agree but not to place it back on the table. Whenever I looped it it was comfortable with no danger of going to the sides of the table

 

[dingyibvs]

Since it was his backhand serve and the sidespin makes it curve to my fh side.

Should my stroke be a bit snappier and more upwards so in case of its being backspin it has a good low arc and if its topspin it will be higher but wont fly out?

The sidespin was only annoying to hit the ball I agree but not to place it back on the table. Whenever I looped it it was comfortable with no danger of going to the sides of the table

No, you should brush forward, think of a very backward to forward kind of stroke. If you're having trouble with that, you can start by sending your whole arm forward. Ideally once you get a hang of it you should shorten the motion. Your issue right now doesn't strike me as a spin misread issue as much as a technique issue. At the very least, try to fix the technique first, or else you may misdiagnose your error and consequently continue to make the same mistakes again and again.

 

[ajtatosmano2]

I wouldnt mind if the ball had higher arc. He seems to block and chop it anyway. So I felt like if I survived his serve and reset my stance I was favored in the rally.

This is also how I tried when looping. I didnt go for full power but I wanted to overwrite the inc spin whatever it was. But thats just a stupid guessing game. Is there no pattern he does with his racket contact?

Just holding the racket (you still need to know what angle) is just bad. I would rather loop

Right now you try to hit it too early. Maybe you can try to read the spin based off how it bounces from your side. Just let it go out a little further. When looping personally I would use more power to help override the spin.
There is no real shortcut to reading the spin, it's trying actively all the time and failing until your brain learns it.

 

[jk1980]

He pressured me hard with his serves even though they were 99% long serves. I just can't read his backspin and topspin serves maybe he was even doing no spin ones aswell. The short no spin serves I had no problems with.

It just annoyed me that even though more than half of the times I was attacking the serve somehow by guessing the spin on the ball and praying that I am somewhat overwriting the spin on the ball to bring it okeish on the table.
It's also crazy to me that I can't read his serves because it's a backhand serve so I should be able to know what spin is on the ball (I feel like it's easier to disguise the spin with the fh pendulum serves)
And the fact he served it long and made me guess (my chances being 1/3 to guess is right) meant he was ahead just by serves 2/3 of the time.
The sets I won were mostly due to me guessing the spin right.
31:37 is a good example. Even in slowmo I don't understand why this ball doesn't go over. It looks like its just sidespin on the ball.

You are making it harder for you than it really is. With the motion of your opponent when serving he can not simply create noticable backspin. My quite "high" class coach(played 1st leage from when he was 16 in east europe and still has >1900 TTR even though >50 yo) told me that you simply can ignore the backspin that is imparted by any serve when the blade surface does not point to the ceiling on ball contact. This fast motion of your opponent is basically to be treated like a slight sidespin no(back)spin or slight topspin ball. The fact that you dump it into the net is not because the ball has backspin, but that you dont brush the ball (which is of course difficult when it comes at you at a pace) and more or less slap it. Tospinning it is very feasable if you brush it.

This is a quite low skill and low spin serve that only troubles opponents due to pace and positioning.

I had a player use that serve against me yesterday and note that regardless of the blade angle it is always no-(back)-spin with a little side spin that can be guided easily.

Remember that a fast serve has quite some energy so you basically dont need to put much if any energy into the ball by yourself. I demonstrate how not to do it by applying too much power in the very last scene of the video.

just apply the spin with a short motion or you can even just "guide" the ball over without the use of spin like an active "block".

 

[Zezima]

Right now you try to hit it too early. Maybe you can try to read the spin based off how it bounces from your side. Just let it go out a little further. When looping personally I would use more power to help override the spin.
There is no real shortcut to reading the spin, it's trying actively all the time and failing until your brain learns it.

I tried that. Not understanding what it was I was just chopping it back. Maybe I am also not used to receiving no spin serves. But it is still rotating. And if I take it late the ball is falling down too or it kicks into me or it kicks sideways meaning I miss the contact alltogether.

From what else you guys wrote I will treat it more as a nospin ball. I just got confused when I hit it into the net. I will work on my contact point. Goal is just to bring it back on the table he is not that aggressive anyway.

Another point I will do if I face him in the yearly club tournament on this saturday is that I will stay closer to the table during the rally. From what I have seen he likes to passively block or chop the balls back.

 

[golden_son]

If he's your training partner -- and you don't have a coach who can be a little more consistent -- just ask him to practice serve/serve return with you. Have him repeat the same serve over and over until you grasp what's coming to you and can return it. (Important: with quality. You don't want to stop once you've simply learned to get it back on the table, or you'll still lose points to it.) Obviously it's not a be-all end-all solution for learning all kinds of serve returns, but it can help you get familiar with at least those types of serves.

 

[blahness]

These fast long serves to the BH and elbow are also my bread and butter point winner serves - i serve them with the hook serve movement which imo is even worse to read than the guy's BH serve.

That guy's BH long serve is good, it is fast, long, deep, and with plenty of spin and placement variation. The backspin variation slows down quite a bit so the backspin in fact looks heavy.

The safest way to control the receive is by FH hook looping it. Because the BH sidespin will always make it drift more rightwards, he cannot physically create a long fast serve with wide angle to the BH corner exiting the sides of the table so it is way easier to take it with the FH rather than the BH (you need to pivot for some BH balls but it is not a difficult pivot to execute). By hook looping it you ride the incoming sidespin (and add to it yourself). If you sense the ball slowing then go more upwards, if you sense the ball not slowing or even accelerating go more forward.

It seems like he is defending very well on the BH, so I would definitely target my loop towards his wide FH.

To receive it with BH is also OK but harder - you need to cancel out the spin brute force (because of the sidespin nature) and it is very jamming due to its speed. Unless you learn how to use the wrist/fingers alone to create massive topspin without much backswing - with your current long stroke it would be very difficult to receive this well with a BH early off the bounce loop. And of course if you push or do anything passive with this fast long serve, he then takes the initiative and you're in trouble. And if you take a step back and slow loop it, it is also much less aggressive and you are also in trouble if he blocks your loop short or wide to your FH.

If you watch the pros with good BH serve (for eg Ovtcharov) you will see that BH dominant players struggle to receive his fast long serves (see how even ZJK lost quite a few times to Ovtcharov), whereas the FH dominant players just destroy these fast long serves outright by their FH pivot loop (for eg Ma Long) thus removing it from the equation completely

 

[blahness]

By the way, open angle can also mean heavy sidetopspin if the force is upwards. Closed angle (or more perpendicular to the ball contact) can be heavy backspin if the force is directed downwards.

Ppl need to get over such stereotypes of 'open racket angle = backspin, closed racket angle = topspin'.

 

[Zezima]

If he's your training partner -- and you don't have a coach who can be a little more consistent -- just ask him to practice serve/serve return with you. Have him repeat the same serve over and over until you grasp what's coming to you and can return it. (Important: with quality. You don't want to stop once you've simply learned to get it back on the table, or you'll still lose points to it.) Obviously it's not a be-all end-all solution for learning all kinds of serve returns, but it can help you get familiar with at least those types of serves.

No he very rarely comes. Also they play with the mindset of having those serves as an advantage and not to teach you how to return their big weapon.
Also I can return any type of long serve. I also dont mind missing a few. Its just that they all look the same pace and spin wise.
I guess what he said is right I should not be afraid the ball having tons of backspin. It just confused me when I looped it into the net. I will treat it more as a pure sidespin ball