My Butterfly Dignics 09C Review: Why I think that most amateur players should avoid it

[Amayzde]

Im a bit late to the party but whether a beginner should avoid it depends on their goal and their envoirement.

If a beginner is just playing for fun and mainly plays against other beginners D09c might feel amazing. All of a sudden their strokes are effortless and they hit shots they never hit before. Almost like the rubber plays by itself. And as long as the beginner has no aspiration to actually master his basic strokes and just wanna play matches the D09c will probably feel like joy to play with.

But once this same beginner starts getting more serious and competitive eventually he will hit a plateau. He will encounter more and more players that play with more quality and more spin. The ball with start jumping everywhere as soon as it hits their rubber, they will have no way of keeping the ball on the table now. And for some beginners this comes sooner, for some it comes later. That all depends on their talent and feeling for racket sports.

I actually have a recent example at my club. I played a practice match against a fellow clubmember that just got a new racket. He couldnt return any of my serves or topspins at all and the ball missed by quite a big margin. When the match was over he told me that he got a new racket. And when I looked at it I stared at it in disbelieve. He got himself a Viscaria Super ALC with Zyre 03 on both sides. He told me it played great when he tested it against his teammates, but when he played against me he could barely return a single ball.

So when a beginner just wants to have fun and doesnt care to much about money D09c can be great fun. But once he becomes more competitive he will eventually hit a wall. And the transition to some equipment more suited to his level will probably be difficult and might even kill all the fun he had before. Possibly it gets so frustrating that he ends up quitting.

 

[riemsesy]

He got himself a Viscaria Super ALC with Zyre 03 on both sides. He told me it played great when he tested it against his teammates, but when he played against me he could barely return a single ball.

That's true. Once you start facing players who can produce decent shots, fast openings, and strong loops, inexperienced players struggle to deal with it, when they've ej-ed into fastest blades and rubbers. Their rubber gets activated by the incoming ball rather than by their own stroke — something they weren't able to generate themselves at their level.

 

[jk1980]

i think for most regular beginners it is true to say that they dont have a real coach. By that i mean somebody that actually takes care that the technique is sound.
We got somebody from youth just coming up to the senior league and he does play chinese rubbers H3 on his blade. Thing is whatever he does when serving it is a nospin serve, because he simply does not have the brushing technique to actually impart any spin on these. He would probably get away with that technique with a softer tensor with which he would at least impart a little spin on his serves, but with that hard tacky chinese rubbers he plays he simply does harm himself.

He is not in an environment without a coach, because in youth training he has two coaches, but still there is not enough time for them to really care to drill him in applying proper chinese technique (the coaches would probably dont even know how, since they play tensors). This all results in him participating in group drills and somehow "winging" it, which leads to him not being able to loop backspin but rather hit at the ball with a big looping motion, but a very open bat face (rubber pointing upwards) so that hopefully the ball will go over the net. If he does not know what is in a serve he will simply try to smash it.
it is really sad to watch, but i am tired of talking to him about it. I think even though we have a coach in the adult team that showed him the right topspin technique, he will simply not be able to apply it because it wont even work in drills, because he is physically too weak to get enough acceleration with this rubber.

His less talented half-brother will surpass him soon, even though that one does play for only a few month, but at least he is not too stubborn and he plays with reguluar tensors (like Vega Pro or something) which give him at least a chance to succeed when he loops.

Having a blade with dig09c and g09c myself i can definitely say that i fell into that trap of thinking "hey i can play this with 1 year of training", but if i am really honest. Playing too fast material made me waste at least a year of progress. It was not that i was having lower consistency with the fast and hard material, but rather that i was not encouraged to learn/try new shot techniques because they all were too overwhelmingly hard with that material, so my progress stalled. Going back to something more manageable just showed how fast one can progress and even improve ones game and shot repertoire, when the equipment is not stiffling.

people do tend to lie to themselves to justify their own equipment choice often. I gave a few of my "faster rubbers" that i tested and discarded to my 60 year old neighbour and sure he thinks that he can manage them. In the past i thought he'd do well enough, but with me paying more attention to my technique i also watch the other peoples technique more carefully. I witnessed that my neighbour basically worsened his technique because of that "too fast" equipment of hits. In the past he would do regular counters, but he has basically changed his play to stand one meter away from the table not even counter- or striking the ball, but rather just standing in the path of the ball trajectory and holding the bat like a stop signing (without swinging at it really) hoping the ball would bounce of his rubber and still land on the other side. He probably adjusted to this "technique" unknowingly simply because that was the only way he could land the ball anymore. its really aweful to see.

 

[belllfador]

First of all, what is a beginner? A person that is learning for the first time how to hold a racket? A person with TTR below 1000? Or someone that has 10 years experience with "office" play style?

IMO, D09C is advanced rubber for competitive players. It is not recommended for people that are learning the basics with the intention of progressing. Of course, if the goal is just to enjoy the game, every equipment choice is good.

I played with Stradivarius and Omega V DF on both sides for more than a year. Fast and unforgiving, my level dropped, but I was confident that I would learn this setup. I don't. Lesson learned. But it was a necessary lesson that helped me a lot in my understanding of TT equipment.

 

[victormanriquey]

Im a bit late to the party but whether a beginner should avoid it depends on their goal and their envoirement.

If a beginner is just playing for fun and mainly plays against other beginners D09c might feel amazing. All of a sudden their strokes are effortless and they hit shots they never hit before. Almost like the rubber plays by itself. And as long as the beginner has no aspiration to actually master his basic strokes and just wanna play matches the D09c will probably feel like joy to play with.

But once this same beginner starts getting more serious and competitive eventually he will hit a plateau. He will encounter more and more players that play with more quality and more spin. The ball with start jumping everywhere as soon as it hits their rubber, they will have no way of keeping the ball on the table now. And for some beginners this comes sooner, for some it comes later. That all depends on their talent and feeling for racket sports.

I actually have a recent example at my club. I played a practice match against a fellow clubmember that just got a new racket. He couldnt return any of my serves or topspins at all and the ball missed by quite a big margin. When the match was over he told me that he got a new racket. And when I looked at it I stared at it in disbelieve. He got himself a Viscaria Super ALC with Zyre 03 on both sides. He told me it played great when he tested it against his teammates, but when he played against me he could barely return a single ball.

So when a beginner just wants to have fun and doesnt care to much about money D09c can be great fun. But once he becomes more competitive he will eventually hit a wall. And the transition to some equipment more suited to his level will probably be difficult and might even kill all the fun he had before. Possibly it gets so frustrating that he ends up quitting.

I very much agree to this @Amayzde , this is also the reason why I mentioned in my blogpost that for me an amateur ir already a club player that is training and trying to improve regularly. And I have seen the same example countless of times, even more, I keep seeing it weekly, which is sad for the player's time and money.

But if fun is the goal, then anything works

 

[victormanriquey]

I really agree with your last comments @riemsesy @jk1980 and @belllfador, this is also my philosophy/experience and what I have see in others. Not saying is the correct way of looking at things but it's the way I'd like to look at it.

Ps. I was (and still am, but more rational today) an EJ but indeed it taught me good things as @belllfador said. Sometimes its good to experiment and experience new things if you have the time and money for it!

 

[Tyce]

First of all, what is a beginner? A person that is learning for the first time how to hold a racket? A person with TTR below 1000? Or someone that has 10 years experience with "office" play style?

Excellent point. I have played in clubs with coaches, mostly certified ones, since 1997. But on many levels I can still say I'm a beginner.

Usually, people who play the level of league I'm in, they stay there and don't improve. It's not until you demonstrate being capable of playing two to three levels higher that anyone will take you seriously. The catch-22 is, how do you get to those levels when there is no support system to help you actually improve? The answer seems to be luck. You have to be given a shot, maybe two, to make it stick on the next level.

But I digress. You made an excellent point challenging the definition of a beginner.

 

[victormanriquey]

Excellent point. I have played in clubs with coaches, mostly certified ones, since 1997. But on many levels I can still say I'm a beginner.

Usually, people who play the level of league I'm in, they stay there and don't improve. It's not until you demonstrate being capable of playing two to three levels higher that anyone will take you seriously. The catch-22 is, how do you get to those levels when there is no support system to help you actually improve? The answer seems to be luck. You have to be given a shot, maybe two, to make it stick on the next level.

But I digress. You made an excellent point challenging the definition of a beginner.

I have seen the same in the netherlands for years now, most people who join the club and have no coach or training, do not improve much because the foundation is missing. I have seen enough people quit after a while due to this.

My second (current) club did not have a proper training structure when I joined, so I came with a lot of bad habits from my first club (things like 'backhand is for those with slow feet' or plenty of wrong body mechanics), and it was not until I decided to take on private coaching and practice at home while watching daily videos that I improved. This is why later I decided to help the club (as a volunteer ofc) and become the trainer for the beginners. I really enjoy it and results are good so far, we have many more new members that stick with us and they also win more. I'm sure this is the same for all other clubs with a trainer, probably better because I'm not a professional full time coach

In any case, I still learn daily, and I think many of us are still a beginner in certain areas, for example when you need to learn a new technique!

Sorry long text, but to answer the question: For us, a beginner is somebody who played recreationally before, and just came to the club with no basic foundation (and a premade racket with dead rubbers) or in other words, a lot of bad habits and without much understanding of spin and tactics. In the netherlands they will not play competition yet, since most cannot serve or receive or even tackle a backspin ball.

 

[mamedium]

life is short - mostly with underspin

why waste your time using shitty rubber? why suffer?

 

[NextLevel]

A few different things are being discussed here at the same time.

This is my position: coaching and mentoring is by far the most important thing on the road to developing good technique. The thing is that some have argued that D09 by itself makes beginners play worse. What i said as my original position (and some have disputed this) is that the benefirs and limitations of hard-sponged tacky rubbers and hybrids are broadly the same from a beginner perspective. It doesn't mean that the beginner will play his best with that equipment. Something like this is also true for pros. Some of the people using Hurricane could actually develop more dynamic games with non-tacky rubbers (Kou Lei was one example) or play better after a switch from wood to carbon (Gauzy).

All equipment has advantages and disadvantages. The biggest ones for D09c are price.and sponge hardness. Even if a player might play worse with D09c, especially in matches, I struggle to think it is so detrimental to the *development* of a player in some way that is unique to it. And what often happens when these players switch away from these rubbers is rarely that they play worse, it is that they find other rubbers easier to use. Which begs the question: should they have always used the other rubbers or was ther something they picked up with them rubbers that helped them play better when they switched?

In the end, coaching and adaptation reigns supreme. Don't use level differences to put down olayers and equipment choices. Look at the player's game and make your honest assessment. And remeber, how you develop a player is not quite the same thing as what makes them play their best at the current moment.

 

[Amayzde]

i think for most regular beginners it is true to say that they dont have a real coach. By that i mean somebody that actually takes care that the technique is sound.
We got somebody from youth just coming up to the senior league and he does play chinese rubbers H3 on his blade. Thing is whatever he does when serving it is a nospin serve, because he simply does not have the brushing technique to actually impart any spin on these. He would probably get away with that technique with a softer tensor with which he would at least impart a little spin on his serves, but with that hard tacky chinese rubbers he plays he simply does harm himself.

He is not in an environment without a coach, because in youth training he has two coaches, but still there is not enough time for them to really care to drill him in applying proper chinese technique (the coaches would probably dont even know how, since they play tensors). This all results in him participating in group drills and somehow "winging" it, which leads to him not being able to loop backspin but rather hit at the ball with a big looping motion, but a very open bat face (rubber pointing upwards) so that hopefully the ball will go over the net. If he does not know what is in a serve he will simply try to smash it.
it is really sad to watch, but i am tired of talking to him about it. I think even though we have a coach in the adult team that showed him the right topspin technique, he will simply not be able to apply it because it wont even work in drills, because he is physically too weak to get enough acceleration with this rubber.

This sounds exactly like me when I was that age. I remember at the time I just started learning about different rubbers and blades. I played with some allround Joola blade and Yasaka Mark V on both sides. I bought a Hurricane 3 Neo (unboosted) and Tenergy 05 because Ma Long played with it at the time. I also developed this long forehand motion which I was trying to copy from Ma Long, but without understanding the principles behind it, it was not effective at all. I had some decent succes but eventually I got rid of the H3 because it was too demanding.

If he is anything like me he will come around at some point. He will probably ignore all the feedback given to him by his coaches and try to improve his own way. But eventually he wil realise that way has not given much improvement and slowly he will start adopting the things he has been ignoring for years and see much more improvement.

Looking back at it I am still not sure how I would approach my younger/former self if I wanted to guide him. Because unless I asked you for advice, I would ignore all other forms of tips and advice given to me.
I guess 1 important aspect that could have convinced me more is the understanding behind WHY practicing/playing a certain way is more effective at our level. That the pros are playing a completely different game according to their level.
Which 2-3 things I would have to work on to get to the 'next' level which definitely was not counter topspinning away from the table, at least not for a while... haha.

 

[NextLevel]

This sounds exactly like me when I was that age. I remember at the time I just started learning about different rubbers and blades. I played with some allround Joola blade and Yasaka Mark V on both sides. I bought a Hurricane 3 Neo (unboosted) and Tenergy 05 because Ma Long played with it at the time. I also developed this long forehand motion which I was trying to copy from Ma Long, but without understanding the principles behind it, it was not effective at all. I had some decent succes but eventually I got rid of the H3 because it was too demanding.

If he is anything like me he will come around at some point. He will probably ignore all the feedback given to him by his coaches and try to improve his own way. But eventually he wil realise that way has not given much improvement and slowly he will start adopting the things he has been ignoring for years and see much more improvement.

Looking back at it I am still not sure how I would approach my younger/former self if I wanted to guide him. Because unless I asked you for advice, I would ignore all other forms of tips and advice given to me.
I guess 1 important aspect that could have convinced me more is the understanding behind WHY practicing/playing a certain way is more effective at our level. That the pros are playing a completely different game according to their level.
Which 2-3 things I would have to work on to get to the 'next' level which definitely was not counter topspinning away from the table, at least not for a while... haha.

Coaches and mentors go a long way. So does "talent" and "feeling" but that is often impossible to describe or measure so let's just focus on coaching and mentoring.

 

[chinacurious]

i was not encouraged to learn/try new shot techniques because they all were too overwhelmingly hard with that material

What new techniques did you learn after switching to slower equipment?

 

[victormanriquey]

This is my position: coaching and mentoring is by far the most important thing on the road to developing good technique.

Yes to this I fully agree. The problem is when that is not available, but if it's available, always the best option. And technique is more important than gear, gear is about 20%-ish (give or take) of the end result. Hence why coaching matters so much.

The thing is that some have argued that D09 by itself makes beginners play worse.

Yes here is where we do not agree. I believe and have experienced that this is the case. But with coaching, time and some talent/feeling, all can be overcome as we discussed before in the other thread of 'fast gear for amateurs'.

Some of the people using Hurricane could actually develop more dynamic games with non-tacky rubbers (Kou Lei was one example) or play better after a switch from wood to carbon (Gauzy).

Fully agree, Hurricane is not for all, not all people should use it. Depends on many factors and it all comes down to case by case, I also state this on my blog

All equipment has advantages and disadvantages. The biggest ones for D09c are price.and sponge hardness

Correct, and for me throw and catapult too, but we dont have to agree on those last two

I struggle to think it is so detrimental to the *development* of a player in some way that is unique to it.

Here we disagree but it's okey. I do agree about the usage of the word 'unique', hurricane or any other hard to use rubber can have the same effect

Which begs the question: should they have always used the other rubbers or was ther something they picked up with them rubbers that helped them play better when they switched?

Yes that is a good Q.

In the end, coaching and adaptation reigns supreme. Don't use level differences to put down olayers and equipment choices. Look at the player's game and make your honest assessment. And remeber, how you develop a player is not quite the same thing as what makes them play their best at the current moment.

Personalised gear advice is of course always the best way, just like coaching, generalisations suck but they are a way to convey a message. That's why I said 'most' not 'all'. But I agree on coaching reigns supreme and also that each player is their own world, what works for you and me, doesnt need to work for them.

 

[victormanriquey]

What new techniques did you learn after switching to slower equipment?

For me, it was about being able to dare to do a full stroke and use my body correctly. Before I was braking and playing scared that the ball would not fly out, which meant it often went into the net, which often reinforced my fear of not daring or swinging too wild. I have seen this also in many others, but perhaps your experience is different, always nice to hear a different perspective

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

You guys just do not understand the mindset of an amateur.

If an amateur uses a cheap or beginner friendly rubber, he hits a poor shot, he will thinks… ahhh, it is my rubber.

If I have top of the line rubber, I would do better. So an amateur will buy the top of the line rubber llke D09C. And he still hit a poor shot.

But this time, he will think…. Ahhhh…. It is my own poor skill.

So, you see, by using an expensive top of the line rubber, an amateur is made to see the truth quicker.

 

[victormanriquey]

You guys just do not understand the mindset of an amateur.

If an amateur uses a cheap or beginner friendly rubber, he hits a poor shot, he will thinks… ahhh, it is my rubber.

If I have top of the line rubber, I would do better. So an amateur will buy the top of the line rubber llke D09C. And he still hit a poor shot.

But this time, he will think…. Ahhhh…. It is my own poor skill.

So, you see, by using an expensive top of the line rubber, an amateur is made to see the truth quicker.

I might as well just make a blogpost with this, LOVED IT @Gozo Calderano , this was me in the past for sure hahahahahahahah

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

I might as well just make a blogpost with this, LOVED IT @Gozo Calderano , this was me in the past for sure hahahahahahahah

You guys are just a bunch
of amateurish amateur. That is why you all phail miserably.

It takes a professional amateur to understand the mindset of amateur.

 

[Tyce]

You guys are just a bunch
of amateurish amateur. That is why you all phail miserably.

It takes a professional amateur to understand the mindset of amateur.

So that's what people mean when they say "advanced beginner"

In which case I am obviously a Pro Beginner

 

[RefereeNumber2]

And technique is more important than gear, gear is about 20%-ish (give or take) of the end result. Hence why coaching matters so much.

20%!? More like 5% at most. Amateurs will log on to this forum and see ~6 pages of thread talking about D09c vs H3N and think getting good at table tennis requires forming an opinion on this.

For the level of amateur we're talking about (<1800 USATT), there are so many glaring technical problems that there is no way equipment is going to make that much of a difference (I'm not talking about giving someone an unfamiliar bat, I'm talking about switching gear and letting them practice and get used to it). The fundamentals of movement and timing are the same for any racket, and these players are almost universally missing huge parts of this technical skillset.

For these players, looking for improvement through changing equipment is a dead end. What's required is an awareness of correct technique, awareness of where their technique is wrong, an openness to the short-term discomfort of experimenting/changing technique, and the opportunity to practice. If changing equipment is a way to jog your mindset in order to achieve these things, then it might be helpful. Usually, it's just a distraction, because it makes you focus on the wrong things. Coaching can help, but it also requires buy-in, open-mindedness, and focus on the part of the player. I've seen players with tons of coaching barely improve at all, and other players with the same coaching improve rapidly, so it's not as if coaching is a cure-all for poor technique. We can talk about "talent," but at the end of the day a big part of talent in table tennis (or in anything, really) is simply the ability to understand what actually matters, and then focusing like crazy on those things. We have limited time and attention to dedicate to improving our games, so try to spend it on stuff that is actually going to make you better.

Equipment is easier to talk about than technique, especially online, which is why I believe this forum always tend to gravitate towards the topic of equipment so easily. That's fine for what this forum is, but it creates a misleading picture for developing players who come here to get advice that is going to help them improve.

If you are one of those players reading this, my advice is: changing equipment is a distraction, just stick with what you have since it's almost certainly fine (maybe avoid this forum if you find it's making you think about equipment too much). If you are making any equipment mistake, it's probably that you're not replacing your rubbers often enough. Get used to gluing rubbers...it might be annoying at first and it's a bit expensive, but fresh rubbers really are better. Focus on your technique, especially whether/how you are moving your feet. Be open-minded about experimenting/trying different approaches.