No umpires in USATT tournaments

[Sp8e00]

For context, I’ve been watching many videos of USATT tournaments from ratings of 1500-2500 and I’ve noticed that in 90% of the games, there is no umpire. This really surprises me as someone from England who’s been playing almost 7 years and never had a game that didn’t have an umpire.

I feel like it’s a normal thing to have one because when I watch videos in Germany, Sweden and France etc, every games has an umpire!

If anyone plays in the US, I want to know how you go about mix ups in scoring, let serves, edge balls and things without causing arguments?

 

[NextLevel]

For context, I’ve been watching many videos of USATT tournaments from ratings of 1500-2500 and I’ve noticed that in 90% of the games, there is no umpire. This really surprises me as someone from England who’s been playing almost 7 years and never had a game that didn’t have an umpire.

I feel like it’s a normal thing to have one because when I watch videos in Germany, Sweden and France etc, every games has an umpire!

If anyone plays in the US, I want to know how you go about mix ups in scoring, let serves, edge balls and things without causing arguments?

Umpire or scorekeeper?

Most of the time, players rarely fight over scores. The biggest issue is serve legality and that you can often get an umpire to come and resolve disputes if necessary. While it would be cool to have a scorekeeping culture, I don't think the US not having it is the end of the world. And most of the matches I watch in Europe have score keepers, not umpires. The players serve dubiously and the person keeping the score has never intervened in the matches I have observed unless it is a true umpire.

 

[Sp8e00]

Umpire or scorekeeper?

Most of the time, players rarely fight over scores. The biggest issue is serve legality and that you can often get an umpire to come and resolve disputes if necessary. While it would be cool to have a scorekeeping culture, I don't think the US not having it is the end of the world. And most of the matches I watch in Europe have score keepers, not umpires. The players serve dubiously and the person keeping the score has never intervened in the matches I have observed unless it is a true umpire.

Scorekeepers/umpires are the same thing in European culture, if you are a scorekeeper then you have the ability to call someone up on an illegal serve, net, time wasting and the score.

 

[NextLevel]

Scorekeepers/umpires are the same thing in European culture, if you are a scorekeeper then you have the ability to call someone up on an illegal serve, net, time wasting and the score.

Interesting. Can you show me an amateur or league level match when a scorekeeper has used this ability? And how are they qualified to exercise it? Are all players trained on umpiring matches and do they have to pass exams to apply the rules? Just curious, not saying they have to or have to be.

 

[Sp8e00]

Interesting. Can you show me an amateur or league level match when a scorekeeper has used this ability? And how are they qualified to exercise it? Are all players trained on umpiring matches and do they have to pass exams to apply the rules? Just curious, not saying they have to or have to be.

I have lots of videos where this happens but due to my age, it’s probs not responsible, I’ll try my best to find this in a local league match from someone else but there’s few people in England who actually record

 

[Sp8e00]

Interesting. Can you show me an amateur or league level match when a scorekeeper has used this ability? And how are they qualified to exercise it? Are all players trained on umpiring matches and do they have to pass exams to apply the rules? Just curious, not saying they have to or have to be.

Also many people just get taught how to umpire and it’s passed on, everyone knows it’s necessary and so you can’t complain by doing it. Respect is a big thing in Europe around tt therefore everyone does what they are told and tries to make the game as fun and fair as possible. I love this side of tt!

 

[NextLevel]

I have lots of videos where this happens but due to my age, it’s probs not responsible, I’ll try my best to find this in a local league match from someone else but there’s few people in England who actually record

I watch a lot of table tennis, I cannot remember a single instance of a match I watched having the scorekeeper actually make a call on the legality of the service. Very often, the scorekeepers often forget the score and need to be corrected by the players. They are also often members of at least one league team or in the same group as the other players and therefore are not completely impartial to the result. Maybe @vvk1 who has a good channel can present some examples of umpiring by scorekeepers?

I play in the US So I am biased. But I am just trying to make sure that these statements have context. Usually, in the US, you can get a certified umpire on demand if your match needs it. But it is not as big a deal not to have a scorekeeper/uncertified umpire as someone who is used to having a scorekeeper might think it is.

 

[MOJOJOJO-74]

For context, I’ve been watching many videos of USATT tournaments from ratings of 1500-2500 and I’ve noticed that in 90% of the games, there is no umpire. This really surprises me as someone from England who’s been playing almost 7 years and never had a game that didn’t have an umpire.

I feel like it’s a normal thing to have one because when I watch videos in Germany, Sweden and France etc, every games has an umpire!

If anyone plays in the US, I want to know how you go about mix ups in scoring, let serves, edge balls and things without causing arguments?

I think the Edgeball Tournament in Barrington, Illinois have referees if 1) You make it to quaterfinals, semifinals, and finals 2) You request one 3) You and your opponent fight over edge balls and serve faults (2 of my teammates in 2025 team tournament had referees for their matches as well as this Chinese team when I watched Division 1 due to hiding the ball and low toss). I think they just trust the players enough to be honest with their matches, but any other US players can give better answers for their states since Illinois doesn't have many tournaments like how California or other population table tennis states do.

 

[Grumms]

Interesting. Can you show me an amateur or league level match when a scorekeeper has used this ability? And how are they qualified to exercise it? Are all players trained on umpiring matches and do they have to pass exams to apply the rules? Just curious, not saying they have to or have to be.

In France, even at National not pro level, the score keeper is a player, and he can deliver cards or call illegal serves. In tournament, when it comes after the group stage, there is not even a score keeper, players count the score themselves. Same in double games in team championship, unless some spectator wants to be the score keeper (often the son a player in my team).

 

[NextLevel]

In France, even at National not pro level, the score keeper is a player, and he can deliver cards or call illegal serves. In tournament, when it comes after the group stage, there is not even a score keeper, players count the score themselves. Same in double games in team championship, unless some spectator wants to be the score keeper (often the son a player in my team).

Is National level club level? And can you present examples of a player giving another player cards for illegal serves? I just want to see and understand how it works and how potential conflicts of interests are addressed. If the player is not happy with the scorekeeper/umpire, what is his recourse?

The main point I am trying to make is that many players in Europe make this big deal about many US club matches, mostly amateur ones at smaller tournaments or in the early rounds, not having scorekeepers/umpires and I am trying to understand what the key difference it makes is since the thing that usually needs umpires is not usually addressed by scorekeepers. Yes good scorekeepers can resolve disputes over edges etc. But these are not that big a deal usually. And you can usually demand and get an umpire if it becomes critical in the US.

 

[Grumms]

National club level.

At my level, I never saw a score keeper calling out a serve, because it's impossible for a score keeper to see if a serve is legal.

 

[Der_Echte]

I watch a lot of table tennis, I cannot remember a single instance of a match I watched having the scorekeeper actually make a call on the legality of the service. Very often, the scorekeepers often forget the score and need to be corrected by the players. They are also often members of at least one league team or in the same group as the other players and therefore are not completely impartial to the result. Maybe @vvk1 who has a good channel can present some examples of umpiring by scorekeepers?

I play in the US So I am biased. But I am just trying to make sure that these statements have context. Usually, in the US, you can get a certified umpire on demand if your match needs it. But it is not as big a deal not to have a scorekeeper/uncertified umpire as someone who is used to having a scorekeeper might think it is.

I am a certified Umpire (and certified Coach) and only get called in after the action to clarify things. (because few players rarely make the effort to report to the on site referee (if there actually is one)

In a USA sanctioned tourney, there is SUPPOSED to be an on site RFEREEE who will get involved if a player reports something... often, the referee himself or herself will fill in as umpire as there are might few certified umpires at a sanctioned tourney, unless it is a 4 star tourney.

Korea has a score keeper culture and players generally have enough honor among themselves of the club owners to figure things out without going to the stage.

NL is genuinely asking in good faith how it is in other areas of the world.

 

[Kahoy]

In our local leagues we play in teams of three on two tables, so the inactive players get to be the scorekeepers. Only on the national level actual umpires are required. There is a set of guidelines which dictates what a non umpire scorekeeper can and can't do. You can and have to enforce the game rules, including illegal serves, but you can't give out warnings or penalties regarding unsportsmanlike behaviour and such.
I play in a lower league and there are usually no issues. Discussions might only arise due to serve placement in doubles, phantom nets or wether the ball hit the side or the edge. I have personally witnessed and called out time wasting, talking during a point and blatantly illegal serves, like no toss, toss from below the table etc.

The higher up the pyramid up you go, you will encounter more and more dickish teams who make favourable net calls to their team mates, but all in all it's usually fine.

Smaller tournaments also use scorekeepers, larger ones sometimes have an umpire as an overseer and use them for semi-finals and finals.

 

[darucla]

In the English local leagues in which I play, 2 teams of 3, each playing 3 singles, one player will always be the designated score-keeper. This is not a job which is fought over, to put it mildly. By convention, the team that supplies the scorekeeper alternates, beginning with the home team for the first match. But even there, I have called illegal serves and ruled over edge/side balls, armed only with a copy of the rules on my phone. Not often but it does happen. One of my team mates was very put out when his serve was ruled a fault, but put up with it. I must admit that as I get older, (75) I am less bothered by the legality of serves than I used to be. The thing that bothers me most is net calls, on my perfectly good swerving serves. I grin and bear it. Personally, I am more likely to call a let on an illegal serve if the player is a youngster who may want to go on to more serious tournaments at some point, and needs to know what will be expected. Sometimes, we play on two tables to finish early (especially with Kids Teams. In that case we may not have a scorekeeper for all games. I have only witnessed a couple of loud disagreements during a match.

In any sanctioned Table Tennis England or VETTS tournament (not team events) that I have been involved with, there is always a scorekeeper, from a neutral party, and there is a referee on site. Yes, we do call the scorekeeper the umpire, and generally people will accept their rulings. The "office" is respected, if not always the person. Although the scorekeeper does not always have one, a number of people who are in the higher ranks of players do have an umpiring qualification. The most basic level is fairly easy to pass.

From what I gather, the main difference between UK and USA in my level of table tennis is the prevalence of team matches in the UK. I obviously could be wrong, but I get the impression that in most matches in USA amateur levels, the emphasis is on one-to-one encounters. That possible accounts for the difference. We always have someone hanging around who could be employed as a scorekeeper.

 

[vanjr]

How do we do matches? Mature players handle disagreements like adults. I would say in a day tournament where I play 10 singles matches there are one or two points that we disagree about (was it an edge ball or side ball; what the score is). I for one would rather lose than win by cheating, so I almost entirely defer to the other person. I find most players extremely fair and have the same attitude.

 

[Singshasha]

Some times umpires are actually just scorekeepers in the international scene 😂

 

[Sp8e00]

In the English local leagues in which I play, 2 teams of 3, each playing 3 singles, one player will always be the designated score-keeper. This is not a job which is fought over, to put it mildly. By convention, the team that supplies the scorekeeper alternates, beginning with the home team for the first match. But even there, I have called illegal serves and ruled over edge/side balls, armed only with a copy of the rules on my phone. Not often but it does happen. One of my team mates was very put out when his serve was ruled a fault, but put up with it. I must admit that as I get older, (75) I am less bothered by the legality of serves than I used to be. The thing that bothers me most is net calls, on my perfectly good swerving serves. I grin and bear it. Personally, I am more likely to call a let on an illegal serve if the player is a youngster who may want to go on to more serious tournaments at some point, and needs to know what will be expected. Sometimes, we play on two tables to finish early (especially with Kids Teams. In that case we may not have a scorekeeper for all games. I have only witnessed a couple of loud disagreements during a match.

In any sanctioned Table Tennis England or VETTS tournament (not team events) that I have been involved with, there is always a scorekeeper, from a neutral party, and there is a referee on site. Yes, we do call the scorekeeper the umpire, and generally people will accept their rulings. The "office" is respected, if not always the person. Although the scorekeeper does not always have one, a number of people who are in the higher ranks of players do have an umpiring qualification. The most basic level is fairly easy to pass.

From what I gather, the main difference between UK and USA in my level of table tennis is the prevalence of team matches in the UK. I obviously could be wrong, but I get the impression that in most matches in USA amateur levels, the emphasis is on one-to-one encounters. That possible accounts for the difference. We always have someone hanging around who could be employed as a scorekeeper.

Yes i totally agree as someone who also plays many local league matches in England. I’m a junior so I they aren’t my favorite thing in the world as sometimes in winter, I end up playing 2 a week plus 10+ hours coaching but progression and playing new players is important.

Anyway, I feel like English table tennis in general is very mature and well thought out. For people in other countries, tournaments are graded as either 1, 2 or 4 stars which differ in the level of play and the amount of points you get for wins. In a 1 star, it’s still expected that if you play in a round robin group, atleast 1 person from the group scores. This is a 1 star, the ‘lowest’ level of English table tennis and still you won’t find a game that isn’t scored by someone.

In a 2 star, there normally will be anywhere from 1-3 official table tennis England umpires but these are normally responsible for organizing the tournament and only scoring the important semis or finals. Otherwise it’s the same where people who are in the group or get knocked out have to score.

In a 4 star, there is some times as many as 15-20 professional table tennis England umpires including someone I know very well who score on their own table. While their position sounds important, as a player there is no difference to a normal scorekeeper / umpire, the expectations is the same, only slightly different with how often they call up a serve.

Maybe the players in England aren’t as competitive as other nations, there is really a lot to learn about English table tennis and it’s professionalism!

 

[Sp8e00]

Another thing to talk about when you don’t have an umpire is whether it plays on your mind or not. In my opinion, I struggle in a local league match when a place doesn’t have a scoreboard and someone just calls the score because I’m always thinking about whether they said the right thing or not. This can affect my mentality and distract myself from the game. I am only young so what do I know. But even still, if your a 23-2400 player in the US I feel that you are too advanced to keep your own score and at that point it should be mandatory to have an umpire or random scorer. In my opinion, there is so reason to not have the players being scorers because it’s not like it saves time due to conflict, writing down scores and things like that when you don’t have one. I think it’s very unprofessional how it works in the US, not calling it bad but it’s definitely unprofessional compared to England.

 

[NextLevel]

Another thing to talk about when you don’t have an umpire is whether it plays on your mind or not. In my opinion, I struggle in a local league match when a place doesn’t have a scoreboard and someone just calls the score because I’m always thinking about whether they said the right thing or not. This can affect my mentality and distract myself from the game. I am only young so what do I know. But even still, if your a 23-2400 player in the US I feel that you are too advanced to keep your own score and at that point it should be mandatory to have an umpire or random scorer. In my opinion, there is so reason to not have the players being scorers because it’s not like it saves time due to conflict, writing down scores and things like that when you don’t have one. I think it’s very unprofessional how it works in the US, not calling it bad but it’s definitely unprofessional compared to England.

It's purely cultural, I have never heard a single player tell me they are too advance to keep their own score even without a scoreboard, and I played many 2500+ and 2600+ and even a few 2700+ players without score keepers, I even never call out the score because I am fairly reliable and I have never disagreed on when to change ends after losing to a strong player (players at my level or lower, it is a very different story). Keeping score is a habit of extremely strong players and I think it is something you might consider working on if you don't do it already. Even professional umpires make mistakes and need to be corrected by the players. The mistakes can be left on the scoreboard for many points if the players are not checking and fortunately get captured later or not at all, because the player wasn't vigilant. Though I find most often that very strong players agree on the score between themselves and it tends to the umpire/score keeper who most often is wrong if anyone is wrong. Of course, there are notably absent-minded or careless players who never consider the score and while I think it is a bad habit, it is understandable not to want to duplicate effort when you trust the authorities. But in real matches even at the professional level, the players often try to correct the umpires/scorekeepers even though technically the umpires are the final decision makers.

Of course, keeping scoreboards for every table requires space and a slight extra cost that some tournaments likely want to avoid. IT would probably be a good thing and I suspect software that facilitates it will be available at some point.

 

[Lula]

In the fourth highest league in Sweden and up there are often educated umpires. Edit: at least pretty often. Have to be a even higher umpire ”överdomare” for all the tables in all tournaments.