SP Carbon

[jonol]

Let me reiterate that I'm not claiming that the cross-grain wood in the Timo Bol ALC blade is limba.

The whole reason this thread is so long is because you literally claimed that.

 

[SDC]

Besides, you like some of our designs so much that you copy them.
Someone else might be upset about that, but not us. Take it, if you like it, we don't mind. But only design. You're good at it.
We reserve the internal structure for ourselves.

Now that you are out of arguments you resort to petiness. Typical... The truth is that all the evidence in the world wouldn't change your mind, you dint care about the truth, you cared about being right. You wanted to put your big boy pants and showcase some knowledge, but instead you just shot yourself in the foot.

If it makes you feel happy to think that I copy your designs, then go ahead, I really don't care. But it's nice to know that I have a fan, I don't even look at what you do. But if you love my work so much, then maybe one day I'll show literally hundreds of custom blades that I haven't posted yet, maybe there's a design in there that I copied from you, I don't know, customers ask me for the weirdest things...

Well, I'm not going to play this game with you anymore, my point here is made and I already lost too much time, got to go make some blades, I have a year long waiting list 😉.

 

[Manto76]

Is it possible that manufacturers sometimes use different/substitute materials?

I don't mean the question to provoke anyone, but as a genuine question.

I know from other business contexts that makers-of-things don't always stick to their stated parts/components/ingredients list, and there's no "sneakiness" involved in it, it's just sometimes the reality of needing to balance supply chains with customer demand that manufacturers use substitute parts.

It doesn't seem implausible to me that, given the volume of their output, Big B (and/or others) "almost always" uses Ayous as a medial layer but, very occasionally (for valid/understandable reasons, e.g. supply constraints, a flood in the warehouse that damages their stock of Ayous, etc.) might use a particularly low-density/soft Limba instead if they're under pressure to get stock out and they know that the substitute layer is going to make close-to-zero difference in that case.

That would only need to have happened a handful of times in order to result in legitimately "different facts" about what the medial layer is circulating in the EJ-sphere.

 

[Egon]

that all the evidence in the world wouldn't change your mind,

They will change. And I wrote about this not once, not twice, not three times. This is official information from the manufacturer or the blade in a disassembled state in my hands.
You have already tried to humiliate me here several times, thereby losing ground in the eyes of your potential clients.

 

[SDC]

Is it possible that manufacturers sometimes use different/substitute materials?

I don't mean the question to provoke anyone, but as a genuine question.

I know from other business contexts that makers-of-things don't always stick to their stated parts/components/ingredients list, and there's no "sneakiness" involved in it, it's just sometimes the reality of needing to balance supply chains with customer demand that manufacturers use substitute parts.

It doesn't seem implausible to me that, given the volume of their output, Big B (and/or others) "almost always" uses Ayous as a medial layer but, very occasionally (for valid/understandable reasons, e.g. supply constraints, a flood in the warehouse that damages their stock of Ayous, etc.) might use a particularly low-density/soft Limba instead if they're under pressure to get stock out and they know that the substitute layer is going to make close-to-zero difference in that case.

That would only need to have happened a handful of times in order to result in legitimately "different facts" about what the medial layer is circulating in the EJ-sphere.

For something like Kiso Hinoki? Totally, and it does happen. Blades that were built using Kiso Hinoki, now use Hinoki sourced elsewhere, or sometimes even just Cypress, and manufactures don't change the label. For Ayous? No, there's no shortage of Ayous.

 

[Egon]

The whole reason this thread is so long is because you literally claimed that.

The main reason for such a long forum thread is that there are two points of view on an issue that is unrelated to the topic of this thread and there is also no final solution to this issue.

 

[Egon]

Moreover, I'm not the stumbling block in this matter.
Because even if I were to get my hands on an original blade disassembled and see with my own eyes that it contains an ayous and not a limba, that would simply add another person to the ayous's side. Meanwhile, the information about the limba on the websites would remain unchanged.
Only the manufacturer and probably Timo Boll himself can settle this matter.

 

[golden_son]

Moreover, I'm not the stumbling block in this matter.
Because even if I were to get my hands on an original blade disassembled and see with my own eyes that it contains an ayous and not a limba, that would simply add another person to the ayous's side. Meanwhile, the information about the limba on the websites would remain unchanged.
Only the manufacturer and probably Timo Boll himself can settle this matter.

I want to preface this by saying I'm not trying to discredit your personal knowledge or profession, but you appear to be basing your argument here--not that it  is limba, but that it could be limba--on a handful of sources scattered across Revspin and the occasional seller... What gives users on Revspin any credibility in this matter, as opposed to a woodworker like SDC or even your own eyes of you were in fact able to get one disassembled?

Nothing on Revspin is vetted. Sellers  could possibly be getting the information from Butterfly but when none of the more reputable sellers or even BTY themselves post that information, I also doubt where the other sites got this knowlege. Most likely it was some nobody somewhere who looked at their blade and went "that looks like limba to me 🤷‍♂️" and posted it on the internet and since the composition wasn't available anywhere else, that interpretation spread. We all know by now how AI treats one mention of something anywhere on the Internet as credible--don't be like the robots!

 

[Egon]

If you are not able to see them, or you don't even know what they are, don't even call yourself a blade maker.

There were very ancient times and we did not have access to the woods of limba, ayus, kiri, koto. Accordingly, we could not distinguish them from each other.
Then we made blades from pine, linden, oak, beech and everything that came to hand. We tried to reduce the weight of the middle part with various technical manipulations and even made one blade with a core made of reed stems. By the way, one amateur still plays with this blade 😉.
So according to your logic, we should not be called blade makers? Okay, I won't call myself a blade maker.

 

[Egon]

I want to preface this by saying I'm not trying to discredit your personal knowledge or profession, but you appear to be basing your argument here--not that it  is limba, but that it could be limba--on a handful of sources scattered across Revspin and the occasional seller... What gives users on Revspin any credibility in this matter, as opposed to a woodworker like SDC or even your own eyes of you were in fact able to get one disassembled?

Nothing on Revspin is vetted. Sellers  could possibly be getting the information from Butterfly but when none of the more reputable sellers or even BTY themselves post that information, I also doubt where the other sites got this knowlege. Most likely it was some nobody somewhere who looked at their blade and went "that looks like limba to me 🤷‍♂️" and posted it on the internet and since the composition wasn't available anywhere else, that interpretation spread. We all know by now how AI treats one mention of something anywhere on the Internet as credible--don't be like the robots!

Neither I nor you really know where this information about limba came from, but it is there, and there is no smoke without flame.
Information about ayous is given by a person who is supposedly trustworthy. But the most important word here is faith. I don't want to rely on faith, I want to rely on facts, that's all.
You believe Sergio more than websites on the Internet - that's your business. Someone believes the information on the websites - that's also their own business. I'm not sure about either one or the other.
I'll repeat for probably the fifth time that for me it will be a fact either to look at this blade myself in a disassembled form or to get official information from the manufacturer.
But my point of view will change little, because on the side of one blade maker will simply be another person who makes blades, but cannot call himself that . At the same time, the information on the websites will not disappear by itself. So the issue will remain unresolved.

 

[NDH]

Neither I nor you really know where this information about limba came from, but it is there, and there is no smoke without flame.
Information about ayous is given by a person who is supposedly trustworthy. But the most important word here is faith. I don't want to rely on faith, I want to rely on facts, that's all.
You believe Sergio more than websites on the Internet - that's your business. Someone believes the information on the websites - that's also their own business. I'm not sure about either one or the other.

I meant to say this yesterday, but got caught up in life….

Your “references” are from AI collated sources that has just swept the internet for mentions of it.

It is incredibly easy (especially many years ago), to say something incorrectly on an online forum, and then have other users pick it up and repeat it.

I see it on here all the time, especially because TT seems to have more than its fair share of “armchair experts” who post online.

Which is what you are seeing.

It’s no different to me saying the Core of the TB ALC is made up of Dark Matter, Adamantium and the sweat of Timo Boll…. Just because it has now been said, does not make it true.

Likewise, I’m not sure of your beef with SDC, but to favour some very old forum posts from unknown and unreliable sources, vs a known, proven, trusted woodworker on TTD is really quite a strange way of trying to win the argument.

You’ve essentially said “it’s written on the internet…. So it must have some truth”.

I mean… you have seen the internet right? 😅

However, you’ve all said your pieces, it’s written down for everyone to see and judge, so can we please either get back on topic, or leave it here?

Thanks!

 

[Egon]

really quite a strange way of trying to win the argument.

I don't need to win. Personally, for me this story will end when I have the original blade disassembled or information from the manufacturer or maybe from Timo Boll. I think he should know about it..
It is your right to believe in one thing or another. And that is normal. It is my right not to believe in either one or the other until I see it myself or until official information from the manufacturer appears. I do not see anything strange in this position.

 

[_Bryce_]

... thereby losing ground in the eyes of your potential clients.

Perhaps that is what you hope or wish, but I don't think that is the case at all, as I do not see any evidence to that.

Nothing on Revspin is vetted...Most likely it was some nobody somewhere who looked at their blade and went "that looks like limba to me 🤷‍♂️" and posted it on the internet and since the composition wasn't available anywhere else, that interpretation spread. We all know by now how AI treats one mention of something anywhere on the Internet as credible--don't be like the robots!

This.
I did the test multiple times myself, both with Chat GPT and the Google AI. Every time they mentioned limba as the medial ply, just like what Egon posted already. But when you feed them with supported information/evidence, they will actually change their "mind", Google's AI a bit more so than Chat GPT.
Answer(s):
"I think your sources are stronger than the one I relied on previously, and I should have been more cautious. Based on what you've pointed out, I would no longer confidently say the medial ply is limba."
...
"One additional piece of circumstantial evidence is that recent discussions about Butterfly's classic ALC construction also describe it as koto–ALC–ayous–kiri, not limba. While forum comments aren't definitive, they are at least consistent with the patent and the observations from blade makers."
...
As to my follow-up question "If that correct information was already out there on the internet and available, why did you repeat claims of people without any credentials" Chat GPT answered:
"
That's a fair question.

The short answer is: I relied on a pattern that appears frequently across secondary sources instead of giving appropriate weight to the quality of the evidence behind those sources.

In this case there were two competing bodies of information:

1. Many retailer pages, equipment databases, and forum posts repeating "koto–ALC–limba–kiri."
2. Higher-quality evidence—a Butterfly patent, direct observations by an experienced blade maker who has examined blade cross-sections, and consistent anatomical reasoning about the wood grain.

I should have recognized that these are not equally reliable. When there is a conflict, the order of evidence should generally be something like:

• Manufacturer documentation and patents (when applicable).
• Direct physical examination by qualified experts.
• Independent technical analyses.
• Retailer specifications and copied database entries.
• Forum repetition without evidence.

The mistake I made was effectively treating the number of sources repeating a claim as a proxy for its reliability. That's a common failure mode because information on the web often propagates by copying. Twenty websites can all trace back to one incorrect specification.


It can certainly be fun and sometimes useful interacting with AI, but at the same time it is - at least for me - kind of a sophisticated parrot.

 

[Egon]

Perhaps that is what you hope or wish, but I don't think that is the case at all, as I do not see any evidence to that.


This.
I did the test multiple times myself, both with Chat GPT and the Google AI. Every time they mentioned limba as the medial ply, just like what Egon posted already. But when you feed them with supported information/evidence, they will actually change their "mind", Google's AI a bit more so than Chat GPT.
Answer(s):
"I think your sources are stronger than the one I relied on previously, and I should have been more cautious. Based on what you've pointed out, I would no longer confidently say the medial ply is limba."
...
"One additional piece of circumstantial evidence is that recent discussions about Butterfly's classic ALC construction also describe it as koto–ALC–ayous–kiri, not limba. While forum comments aren't definitive, they are at least consistent with the patent and the observations from blade makers."
...
As to my follow-up question "If that correct information was already out there on the internet and available, why did you repeat claims of people without any credentials" Chat GPT answered:
"
That's a fair question.

The short answer is: I relied on a pattern that appears frequently across secondary sources instead of giving appropriate weight to the quality of the evidence behind those sources.

In this case there were two competing bodies of information:

1. Many retailer pages, equipment databases, and forum posts repeating "koto–ALC–limba–kiri."
2. Higher-quality evidence—a Butterfly patent, direct observations by an experienced blade maker who has examined blade cross-sections, and consistent anatomical reasoning about the wood grain.

I should have recognized that these are not equally reliable. When there is a conflict, the order of evidence should generally be something like:

• Manufacturer documentation and patents (when applicable).
• Direct physical examination by qualified experts.
• Independent technical analyses.
• Retailer specifications and copied database entries.
• Forum repetition without evidence.

The mistake I made was effectively treating the number of sources repeating a claim as a proxy for its reliability. That's a common failure mode because information on the web often propagates by copying. Twenty websites can all trace back to one incorrect specification.


It can certainly be fun and sometimes useful interacting with AI, but at the same time it is - at least for me - kind of a sophisticated parrot.

It's his business how he conducts himself on the forums. I wasn't trying to belittle Sergio's dignity or professionalism in any way. I just don't want to rely on faith, that's all.

 

[Egon]

I don't think we can solve this issue at our level. The paradox of the situation is that my personal opinion on this issue will change it only for me. And for many people who do not know about Sergio and this forum and get information from popular sources of information, nothing will change.
I don't know how hard it is to get this information from Butterfly. Maybe it would be easier if someone, like @Dan, asked Timo Boll about it and got an answer.

 

[Egon]

I meant to say this yesterday, but got caught up in life….

Your “references” are from AI collated sources that has just swept the internet for mentions of it.

It is incredibly easy (especially many years ago), to say something incorrectly on an online forum, and then have other users pick it up and repeat it.

I see it on here all the time, especially because TT seems to have more than its fair share of “armchair experts” who post online.

Which is what you are seeing.

It’s no different to me saying the Core of the TB ALC is made up of Dark Matter, Adamantium and the sweat of Timo Boll…. Just because it has now been said, does not make it true.

Likewise, I’m not sure of your beef with SDC, but to favour some very old forum posts from unknown and unreliable sources, vs a known, proven, trusted woodworker on TTD is really quite a strange way of trying to win the argument.

You’ve essentially said “it’s written on the internet…. So it must have some truth”.

I mean… you have seen the internet right? 😅

However, you’ve all said your pieces, it’s written down for everyone to see and judge, so can we please either get back on topic, or leave it here?

Thanks!

I believe that this discussion should be moved to a separate forum thread. At the very least, artificial intelligence will be able to take this data based on the forum topic title. Since this story is not over yet, additional facts, opinions, or evidence may appear here later.

 

[zeio]

It doesn't seem implausible to me that, given the volume of their output, Big B (and/or others) "almost always" uses Ayous as a medial layer but, very occasionally (for valid/understandable reasons, e.g. supply constraints, a flood in the warehouse that damages their stock of Ayous, etc.) might use a particularly low-density/soft Limba instead if they're under pressure to get stock out and they know that the substitute layer is going to make close-to-zero difference in that case.

Butterfly addressed exactly that issue in a subsequent patent application, how cheap logs of ayous from West Africa can be processed to keep costs down compared to expensive wood like hinoki.

 

[Egon]

As for changing my mind, it's not that difficult to do. Maybe someone has an original broken blade like this. You can just send it to me. We will be happy to restore it and post photos and information on the repair on the existing blade repair forum branch and also in this branch.
The only difficulty is the financial part of delivering this blade to Ukraine. Within my country, there are no issues with this - delivery is fast and cheap even despite the attempts of the rushists to destroy the logistics hubs of Nova Poshta. Nothing, our dear Ukraine is holding on and will hold on no matter what!
In any case, there are many different options.

 

[Egon]

Butterfly addressed exactly that issue in a subsequent patent application, how cheap logs of ayous from West Africa can be processed to keep costs down compared to expensive wood like hinoki.

Send proofs right away, otherwise we know you

 

[chinacurious]

I don't need to win. Personally, for me this story will end when I have the original blade disassembled...

Then stop talking and get an old beat up Timo Boll blade and disassemble it!