Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[jk1980]

That serve, the toss is pretty backwards (more than 30 from vertical). Very hard to see in a match from the opponent's side but I need to figure out how to see it because the spin is usually underestimated by me lol...

Yes, i definitely know that these is not a legal serve even though from ghe opponents view its hard to judge because i seve straight at his backhand. This exact serve i usually do if i underestimate players or i want to use the match to get accustomed to win fancy, because it get's me straight into the 3rd ball attack. This is a low backspin serve which often enough gets returned to mid or backhand where i actually would like to backhand loop, but it is just to ingrained for me to use forehand from that position, but i try to change that. The only spin imparted on that serve is because i kinda throw it into the racket but the acceleration is all arm and no wrist. I only would increase spin i the opponent would backhand loop these down the line.

You might think that my aim would be to make that serve more legal, but i am thinking in the opposite direction actually. There are incredibly many people serving out of their hand and i am active thinking about finding an even more illegal and obnoxious serve that would really annoy the opponent, so that i can show theses guys how cool it is to be on the receiving end of it. Then it is my turn to say "we are just hobby players and we always did it like this".

The spin underestimation comes more often by being lazy and not watching every serve in its own space. Once i receive a serve and the opponent kinda serves with roughly the same motion i wont really check the accurate ball contact and just expect a similar ball like before. I am definitely guilty of that.

 

[Archosaurus]

I get that from the video, but that's not what I get from your forum posts. From what I read, I think you have ambitions but can't find the resources (coaching, partners etc) to get any further.
If that's not the case and you just want to remain the level you're at now, then sure, don't change your rubber, clothes, training attitude and whatnot.

Me too, but that's for a cooldown or warmup sessions. When shit gets serious, those trackies come off.

These clothes will start to restrict once you're dripping in sweat. You can't make full and swift use of your legs, knees will experience dragging on the trousers. It's harder to get to that deeper posture quickly because of that.

Maybe our idea of serious is different. The highest ambition I have is to not get crushed in Division 7 next year and I'll see from there. In all likelihood I will lose 90% of my games but it's just how it is.

Everyone "serious" already has established partners and our level is too different to train. The only reason they accommodate me at all is because they can't return my serves, so they can get some practice against serves which are closer to the high division ones. So we will do an hour or two sometimes if the time is right. I will occasionally take sets off these guys but I think they overestimate me a bit sometimes, so it's unclear if they will keep training with me at all once they can figure out how to return my serve lol...

That could be true about the sweat, I think I've felt them dragging a little really late into a tough session. I need to get some shorts anyway some time so I'll start training in them at some point.

 

[jk1980]

EDIT: Video stabilization was on automatically. If I understood it right that might mean a variable shutter speed to reduce motion blur, which might be interacting badly with the lighting in the venue because of a rate mismatch. I can't guarantee that'll fix the strobing effect, I feel like it won't fix it because the framerate is desynced from the power grid frequency anyway but I'll try it anyway.

Dude, as an fellow engineer i would have expected you to solve this issue by yourself. Depending on the camera quality these tips might or might not be needed, but in general: make your recording fps the Hz/frequency according to your country power grid properties. I germany we got 50Hz, so if you get that flickering, set the recording fps to 50 fps instead of 60fps. You might also use a multiple of your frequency. Your cam is probably set to 30 or 60fps. Just set it to 50 fps and you will be fine.

 

[Archosaurus]

Dude, as an fellow engineer i would have expected you to solve this issue by yourself. Depending on the camera quality these tips might or might not be needed, but in general: make your recording fps the Hz/frequency according to your country power grid properties. I germany we got 50Hz, so if you get that flickering, set the recording fps to 50 fps instead of 60fps. You might also use a multiple of your frequency. Your cam is probably set to 30 or 60fps. Just set it to 50 fps and you will be fine.

You have a habit of assuming. Not great when engineering. Take it from someone who learned the hard way.

You see the issue is that my phone is a very low spec model, so I can't even choose the rate. It's locked to 30Hz LOL. If I could adjust the rate I'd have put it to 50Hz already to match the local grid.

However I'm looking at my first video right now and it looked different; grainy, but not strobing. So something must have changed in the settings, or maybe I toggled something on like an idiot when I was setting it up.

I'll do some A-B testing at the club next time and I bet I can at least restore the original quality.

 

[dingyibvs]

I am a huge believer from my years of practice is that it is best to learn to just hit the ball somewhat cleanly and then add to spin to the ball with subtle use of the fingers and larger swing paths. So contact is more important for me than "wrist usage" and "wrist usage" is more finger usage to increase the rotational or speed effect on the ball, especially the rotational effect. For me, the difference between a hit and a spin are subtle, so you could call me a hit/drive spinner especially on the backhand. The forehand is a bit more all over the place since I don't have the footwork to precisely control it so I tend to just accept whatever ball I am given.

With my BH I was trying to actively use my wrist, definitely learned my lesson there. With my FH I wasn't trying to use my wrist at all, it kind of just happened, and then with more efficient power transfer the looseness of my wrist unexpectedly became an issue. I'm definitely gonna try to keep my wrist movement much more limited in an intentional way going forward.

Speaking of fingers, I've only recently just come into position to use it actually. My coach noticed that my index finger was kind of hovering over the rubber, and he told me I needed to keep it pressed up against it. That's something I've only recently (past month) started working on.

Gotta be careful with the wrist and take it easy. You've already improved so much in such a short span.

When i last injured it it was horrible to deal with and i had to rehab for a really long time.

With FH i also changed my brushing method to almost pure forearm pronation + using my 2nd joint (1st being the knuckle) of the index finger to press onto the blade. My wrist itself doesnt move all that much and stays relatively stable in a neutral position.

i found out that the really important part is the braking of the stroke (ie how the momentum is absorbed). If it goes to the wrist then it would really mess up the wrist. If it goes to the shoulder it is the same. Best to use the bending at the left hip joint to absorb the momentum imo and let the rest of the stroke decelerate naturally.

Yes, I think the issue is that I just let my wrist loose, and it ended up being the wrist joint absorbing the momentum in the end rather than the muscles. Interestingly, I just tried out the more restrained wrist technique, and it added more power? Like, not a little, but a lot! Basically I just tighten all my arm muscles sequentially at contact, upper arm (controls the elbow/lower arm) then lower arm (controls the wrist/hand), actively bringing my arm/wrist from a dragging position to a neutral position and keeping it from over-rotating.

I think what's happening is that while my goal was to use the active tightening of my muscles to absorb the momentum and prevent trauma to my joints, what also happened was that power transfer became even more efficient. I'm gonna try to add some finger use to at the end as well once I get the rest more coordinated.

 

[NDH]

All the coaches for my level do around here is block and feed multi. I already do that for free with some of the better players. Many players even at a decently higher level come to the same conclusion and just stop paying them after a few sessions. I won't completely knock it before I try it, but for now I'm not so fussed. If I can play in Division 7 next year and maybe 6 the year after that I'm ahead of my schedule already!

Hey Arch,

Firstly - Great to see you posting videos. It really helps when people are commenting to be able to see what they are commenting on!

I think the "feedback" you've received has been primarily because your words/advice/comments portray an experienced player who has played (or is currently playing) at a high level - Whether you intended that or not is anyone's guess.

I've always said that feedback and comments are incredibly valuable across a wide range of levels - A *very* good player may have forgotten what it was like to be at the earlier stages of their journey, and actually, someone in a similar position to you may be able to offer more relevant advice on certain things.

However, level is important, and from a technique (tried and tested) point of view, skill and experience matter.

Regarding your comment above.... Having watched some of your videos, I actually think "block and feed multi" is absolutely what you need.

It's not everything, of course, but I think you'd be surprised at just how much you'd improve if you were doing that much more than you do now.

I don't know what your "schedule" is, in terms of where you want to be.... But I'd take a guess and say that spending a few hours each week doing multi ball training and having someone block (well) for you would improve you dramatically.

And I don't mean someone blocking like your partner in the videos - You are both a similar level and both far too inconsistent to really get much out of heavy practice with each other.

You'd both improve naturally, but it would be slow progress.

Finally, to put this whole "level" thing into perspective.... The person (@latej) who won the round robin in Dusseldorf a few weeks ago, considers himself to be a very average player in his home country.

He'd be in the top divisions in the UK - So bear that in mind when you think about the overall level and trying to compare across countries.

 

[Archosaurus]

Hey Arch,

Firstly - Great to see you posting videos. It really helps when people are commenting to be able to see what they are commenting on!

I think the "feedback" you've received has been primarily because your words/advice/comments portray an experienced player who has played (or is currently playing) at a high level - Whether you intended that or not is anyone's guess.

I've always said that feedback and comments are incredibly valuable across a wide range of levels - A *very* good player may have forgotten what it was like to be at the earlier stages of their journey, and actually, someone in a similar position to you may be able to offer more relevant advice on certain things.

However, level is important, and from a technique (tried and tested) point of view, skill and experience matter.

Regarding your comment above.... Having watched some of your videos, I actually think "block and feed multi" is absolutely what you need.

It's not everything, of course, but I think you'd be surprised at just how much you'd improve if you were doing that much more than you do now.

I don't know what your "schedule" is, in terms of where you want to be.... But I'd take a guess and say that spending a few hours each week doing multi ball training and having someone block (well) for you would improve you dramatically.

And I don't mean someone blocking like your partner in the videos - You are both a similar level and both far too inconsistent to really get much out of heavy practice with each other.

You'd both improve naturally, but it would be slow progress.

Finally, to put this whole "level" thing into perspective.... The person (@latej) who won the round robin in Dusseldorf a few weeks ago, considers himself to be a very average player in his home country.

He'd be in the top divisions in the UK - So bear that in mind when you think about the overall level and trying to compare across countries.

I don't disagree, but I'm also not paying someone 70aud/hour to block for me and not give any advice or otherwise do anything else. There's plenty of people who will do that for free who won't make a mistake after 30, 40 shots. It might be a better investment to just get a table and robot at that point and hit a bit every day.

The multi is very useful and I've started adding it into my normal training. I don't need a very complicated or fast feed, so almost anyone can do it.

It's hard to compare Australian level to other countries because many people are severely under or over-rated. It's not uncommon to see someone 2 or 3 divisions too high or low. It seems like in stronger countries like Germany or South Korea, they're much more accurate regarding someone's actual play level.

FWIW kids from China who got trained professionally in the system but only made it onto a city team and not a provincial one seem to be the ones coming to Australia, and they usually get put into Division 2~ and they're winning most of their games. I don't know where they plateau, but the difference between even Division 1 and the better State players is immense, despite just a few hundred rating points.

 

[Haito]

There's plenty of people who will do that for free who won't make a mistake after 30, 40 shots. It might be a better investment to just get a table and robot at that point and hit a bit every day.

Robot helps, but only if someone explains basics to your first. If you don't find someone with deep understanding of body mechanics, you are just going to enforce bad habits.

 

[Tyce]

Last night we took our third 1-4 defeat. The majority went to decider, the rest went to 8-9 points at least. Feels like we're up to the level but just not managing to close it yet.
My BH was lacking confidence, and my FH was too wild for too many points. When I did manage to relax the BH motion, or play a fluid, 40% FH loop, it was 80% my point.
But as I said to my teammate, I have to keep in mind that I come from playing too large and wild on *everything* FH, and the fact that I am capable of restraint and sensible, technical play, even if I don't pull it off consistently yet, is definitely sign of progress.

I do keep getting happier and happier with the Glayzer/Glayzer combo. The combination of the controlled and super grippy topsheet, and the action that the sponge can unleash is just excellent. In a way, it reminds me of the "harder feeling" that I always liked on my BH. Control levels feel very close to classic rubbers, pushing is so easy to get right, but there's also a fair amount of spin and power.

I don't disagree, but I'm also not paying someone 70aud/hour to block for me and not give any advice or otherwise do anything else. There's plenty of people who will do that for free who won't make a mistake after 30, 40 shots. It might be a better investment to just get a table and robot at that point and hit a bit every day.

The multi is very useful and I've started adding it into my normal training. I don't need a very complicated or fast feed, so almost anyone can do it.

It's hard to compare Australian level to other countries because many people are severely under or over-rated. It's not uncommon to see someone 2 or 3 divisions too high or low. It seems like in stronger countries like Germany or South Korea, they're much more accurate regarding someone's actual play level.

FWIW kids from China who got trained professionally in the system but only made it onto a city team and not a provincial one seem to be the ones coming to Australia, and they usually get put into Division 2~ and they're winning most of their games. I don't know where they plateau, but the difference between even Division 1 and the better State players is immense, despite just a few hundred rating points.

I was thinking, a return board might be awesome in this case. Cheap, effective, direct feedback and it will block as good as you set it up to.

 

[NDH]

I don't disagree, but I'm also not paying someone 70aud/hour to block for me and not give any advice or otherwise do anything else.

No "coach" should do this.

I appreciate coaching in different parts of the world can be disproportionately expensive, but if you can find an actual coach, it would be the best investment in yourself that you could do.

 

[Haito]

A bit more footage for context. This is my partner blocking what I consider a "30%" shot. It's about the highest shot I can do for him which will have more than one come back. I am not making excuses when I say that he can't actually block my real shot. It's just literally how it is. I can film some footage next time of him blocking a real shot if it makes the schizos happier.

If you want some friendly feedback

• when playing against newbie don't play the spin, no power loop. Put minimal amount of pace on it. Its easier to block. You can also provide some basic instruction on how to block. Teaching basic block shouldn't take longer than 30 minutes provided you can play a stable top spin. You are throwing the ball high, it might look easier, but since it has no pace it will have a tendency to pop up when contacted. If you put any pace on it it dig dipper in the opponents rubber and it will be easier to block.
• your fit are concreted in the depth direction, your timing is all over the place, the guy returns the first ball shallow, you play late-ish, second ball is on the line you play on time, third ball never lands on the table
• your core rotation is weird, your legs do look like rotating, but the core is cemented in place, majority of arc and spin comes from your forearm. Its easy to get exhasted and loose control that way

Something I am not sure if it makes sense, but helped me. When I play with amateurs I open up my racket angle and brush up-forward, instead of closed racket full forward typical for Chinese rubbers. Its easier for me to not overwhelm them with spin that way. Either way.

 

[Archosaurus]

Coaching here seems like a complete waste of time unless you can find someone who has some achievements and pedagogical understanding and is willing to work with you long-term. Most "coaches" are amateurs who play in the club divisions and all I've seen them do is drills without really any kind of guidance or advice. I've talked with a few pro coaches and the guidance isn't terrible, but it's not anything I couldn't just get here either. NextLevel is basically saying the same things they are.

@Tyce
Yeah, return board might work. It's not gonna be a super realistic ball, but it doesn't really matter, I just need *a* ball to hit.

@Haito
I don't really know how to teach blocking to beginners honestly. I find it easier to block if there's some spin and it's low and fast. I tried that but they seem too difficult. Maybe blocker is holding the bat too stiff?

I dunno what "your fit are concreted in the depth direction" means. If you mean I'm on my heels then a little bit. I have some issues with my ankles and shins that make them gas out very quickly so I've always been a bit more heel-loaded than I'd like. It's improving with age (conditioning?) though, so I can probably add a little bit every day.

I'm not really rotating into the ball, just opening up for the backswing. I'll rotate for real and open up the angle more to add more speed and take off most of the spin and see how that goes.

 

[Haito]

I dunno what "your fit are concreted in the depth direction" means. If you mean I'm on my heels then a little bit. I have some issues with my ankles and shins that make them gas out very quickly so I've always been a bit more heel-loaded than I'd like. It's improving with age (conditioning?) though, so I can probably add a little bit every day.

You are not adjusting for the depth of the ball. Your position for handling half long and long ball was the same.

 

[NDH]

Coaching here seems like a complete waste of time unless you can find someone who has some achievements and pedagogical understanding and is willing to work with you long-term. Most "coaches" are amateurs who play in the club divisions and all I've seen them do is drills without really any kind of guidance or advice. I've talked with a few pro coaches and the guidance isn't terrible, but it's not anything I couldn't just get here either. NextLevel is basically saying the same things they are.

I'll try and be direct without being blunt.

Not every good player can coach or pass on *relevant* advice to others.

Fan Zhendong telling me to get as low as he does on his forehand counters might sound like great advice.... But he's 5 foot nothing and I'm 6 foot 4 (the years of CNT training probably helps him as well..... 😂)

However, you've been posting on this forum for 10 years and I you've been playing for just as long if not longer - Regardless of any breaks you may have had in that time, if you truly WANT to improve, you need to change something up.

Your level right now is around a brand new player who has had good coaching for about 4-6 months (having never played before).

I don't mean that to be disrespectful - I just mean it in a way to show how important consistent coaching/drilling/practice with someone who can help you is.

Listening and learning from people online is one thing, and I'm not saying you should ignore it.

But.... Finding someone (or a group of people) who can train with you (who are MUCH higher in level than you are), to be able to drill, offer advice on your technique and work on things one at a time (rather than huge changes to every stroke) will very clearly benefit you immeasurably.

When you get to a certain level, you can start analysing your own play, strokes, footwork and ask for advice online AND be able to act upon it.

But right now, you are still a long way from being able to do that.

You have the foundations and passion of someone who could be a good player - But if you think you can improve enough based on feedback here, and your desire to analyse your own game and improve.... I think you'll be very disappointed with where you end up.

 

[latej]

But.... Finding someone (or a group of people) who can train with you (who are MUCH higher in level than you are), to be able to drill, offer advice on your technique and work on things one at a time (rather than huge changes to every stroke) will very clearly benefit you immeasurably.

+1 to that. I have an opportunity to train with better players, the ones the Badgers played their 2nd match with, when they visited us in CR. I very rarely win, sometimes I get heavy beating. At the same time I don't feel completely overplayed, well sometimes I do, but mostly not, and often we have good exchanges and sets can get very tight. So this opportunity is like a god-sent to me, obviously. 100% recommend.

Speaking of ranking - because @NDH mentioned I consider myself average - I know that if I take all registered players in CR then I am close to being in top 5%. However, when I see what the better players do, and when I see what the abs. top-players in CR and do, and then what the WTT profis do, I truly feel like average skill-wise. Cheers.

 

[Haito]

You have the foundations and passion of someone who could be a good player - But if you think you can improve enough based on feedback here, and your desire to analyse your own game and improve.... I think you'll be very disappointed with where you end up.

I would like to highlight this paragraph. Sometimes people don't grasp thinks, even when you show them in real life next to you. Getting better based on text feedback is even harder.

 

[Archosaurus]

You are not adjusting for the depth of the ball. Your position for handling half long and long ball was the same.

Oh, okay. Yeah. I'm not paying much attention to that, and in games the depth of the ball is my biggest issue most likely. I often get caught with a high ball flying at my face, or a low ball going for the ankles.

I think part of it is laziness on the footwork side ("I can probably reach it from here so why move a few cm") but I'm not really paying attention so much to the depth and height of the incoming ball and actively making a decision based on that. It's mostly vibes-based, which is not great if your vibes are off.

Do you know some specific drill for this?

@NDH

I took an 8~ year long break and I'm back for a few months now. So I definitely haven't been playing for 10 years. You could say maybe 3 years with some rounding. All of that is gone; though, I had to start from completely scratch. Couldn't do anything basically at all. I think I'd still lose to my 2018 self if we played.

I'd love to play this mythical 4-6 months well coached beginner that my play level is equivalent to. I'll pay you 10 quid for every serve they can get onto the table.

The club I'm in has a pretty good atmosphere and we have weekly serious training, so I think I'm halfway there in that regard.

 

[NDH]

I'd love to play this mythical 4-6 months well coached beginner that my play level is equivalent to. I'll pay you 10 quid for every serve they can get onto the table.

This may just be a difference in environment, but even in the UK (which is generally quite poor at Table Tennis in general), a new player who is getting coaching (mostly juniors), for 4-6 months consistently, is likely in a stronger position than you are right now.

And again, that is not meant as an insult, but you seem very averse to changing what you are accustomed to - Which is fine (it's your progress).

But if you want to improve as much as you seem to.... You need to make a change.

At the end of the day, it's your journey and you are invested in it one way or the other.

Progress is progress, and if you are happy doing what you are doing, absolutely carry on! 😊

 

[Archosaurus]

This may just be a difference in environment, but even in the UK (which is generally quite poor at Table Tennis in general), a new player who is getting coaching (mostly juniors), for 4-6 months consistently, is likely in a stronger position than you are right now.

And again, that is not meant as an insult, but you seem very averse to changing what you are accustomed to - Which is fine (it's your progress).

But if you want to improve as much as you seem to.... You need to make a change.

At the end of the day, it's your journey and you are invested in it one way or the other.

Progress is progress, and if you are happy doing what you are doing, absolutely carry on! 😊

The UK must be amazing then, because even Division 1 players here can only return them adequately maybe one serve out of the whole set. I drilled with a Division 5 guy (Severely underrated because he's winning every game) once and his success rate was maybe 2%. I'd serve buckets of random serves and nothing's even coming back on my side. I learned a lot of curse words in his language that day.

That's a bit of crutch, though. I thought I was a little bit higher level player than I really was based on the scoring I get against some opponents (I've convincingly beaten Division 5 players 11-2 in round robins just because of that) but I've decided to leave all that behind for now and don't do anything cheesy and try to play "properly".

It's hitting the ego a little because I do indeed score pretty close to what a beginner would, so in that sense I guess you're right, but it's probably better for the long term. If anything my performance should be less volatile, in both directions.

 

[NextLevel]

[

@NextLevel

I don't know why that feels unsafe now. Logically I know I should just take them off the bounce or at apex and drive them pretty flat (Sometimes I do, like 9:48 in sets A) but I'm not deciding to most of the time. Maybe it's because I tend to default to a low backswing and by then it's just too late? I'll need to make a rule that balls above the net also get a backswing above the table or something and see how that goes.

I've gotten some comments that my hitrate against a popup return against my topspin serve is much better than my hitrate against any other kind of weak return and I thought it had to do with the kind of ball that's coming back (Handling top better than back), but maybe it's better because I know that it's probably not gonna be backspin and I'm just more ready to smack it earlier and higher?

One of the principles I try to work with when I teach adult learners (because their experience makes them have stories that inhibit the learning process - kids haven't had the time to develop those stories) is that everything should feel unsafe when you first do it, but the key is to focus on the motion and learn how to adjust the contact point over time. Don't try to put the ball on the table, swing at the ball see what it does and focus on changing the swing trajectory and contact point before you significantly reduce the power. In fact, I try to encourage adults to smash with a full stroke in the beginning. Throwing mechanics are consistent across offensive strokes for the most part, it is just the nature of the contact and the intensity of the throw that changes (because recovery is important in table tennis, otherwise you could toss the ball into oblivion with the right mechanics but the spin and /or speed that puts the ball on the table can be used against you to bring it back). But when you learn how to go through a ball and make it land on the table, it changes the way you see table tennis. You start looking for more opportunities to go through the ball if you can physically sustain it. When I was less arthritic, my favorite play was serve no spin, and whatever return I get, if it comes long or high enough, windmill the ball.