Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Archosaurus]

I think you're overcomplicating it really.

1. Transfer weight by rotating hips from right leg to left leg
2. Try to hit the ball at its peak
3. Aim to hit through/brush the top of the ball (or top+back if you want more lift against heavy backspin)

Then practice it against block/slower paced multiball.

Fine tuning comes after you can consistently land shots with good power. When you do those 3 things correctly and get a feel for it, it also starts to become a lot easier to adjust in match to more awkward angle, height or length.

I think there is a lot more to even doing step 1 than you appreciate.

 

[jonol]

There really isn't.

You do it in multiball/against someone with a reliable block and it will slowly start to feel natural.

Which is actually the solution to most of the problems you seem to have right now.

You barely get any rotation in your body on your shots. No matter how many other fine details you work on (even if they are technically 'correct') you won't be able to consistently generate power.

 

[Archosaurus]

You barely get any rotation in your body on your shots. No matter how many other fine details you work on (even if they are technically 'correct') you won't be able to consistently generate power.

Really? I'm usually told I over-rotate.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/attachments/loop1-png.43461/

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/attachments/loop4-png.43464/

That looks like about 70deg or more to me. Do I need to rotate 90deg or what?

I think the only shots I don't rotate on basically at all are almost all the backhands and very very wide forehand balls that I swing on much too early.

EDIT: I looked at the mistakes too, and I rotate on the net balls as well. The forehand shots I don't really rotate on are those stabby block things I do, really wide balls, and if I get completely jammed up in my elbow and don't move.

I will say the net balls look more rushed than the ones which go in, so it's probably at least mis-timed.

 

[blahness]

@Archosaurus the main issue is that you are always trying a brute force overly tangential brush and there is not enough normal force to engage the sponge. These are stuff that is quite obvious when you look at video but if you take out just screenshots you wouldnt know. The more you try to brute force brush the more the ball will drop to the net because of the underspin. If you dont have the concept right, it doesnt matter if your stroke looks like Ma Long, you will still net the ball.

The best way to think about it is an angled hit upwards. So imagine your blade being 90 deg (perpendicular to ground) with force directed say 45 deg upwards. If your force is directed 0 deg forward it is a pure hit and you will always net it because there is no lifting force, and if your force is directed also at 90 deg, that is pure brushing and you will also still net it because there simply isnt enough normal force to sink the ball into the sponge and force it to be lifted upwards. On heavier underspin balls this will simply fail regardless of how much you try to brute force brush.

In fact, the more underspin the ball has the more you have to go forward to sink the ball into the sponge because the ball slows down even more and becomes shorter than what you think. And this is also where the footwork is super important, you need to know how to position against different lengths of balls. A deep underspin push is completely different from a floating half long underspin push or even a short high one. The short ones you actually need to step forward with the foot first, if your body is too far away you have no chance of even making the correct contact (try it yourself without a ball and you will understand)

I literally see people with way uglier strokes be way more consistent opening against underspin than you, and that is simply because they understand the concept. Body use is nice and all but is useless until you grasp the contact concept.

You might need to do a training phase of simply open angle contact and being able to lift any underspin ball without fear first. You fear netting it so you brush even more, and that causes you to net it even more - it is a vicious cycle. It looks simple but i also did this until i had 90% landing rates, then looping underspin was just easy peasy and is nothing to be feared. You dont need any fancy body usage, this will work even when you are super out of position, as long as you get the correct contact.

See below:

 

[blahness]

Honestly im willing to bet that currently, against a reasonably heavy underspin ball, @Archosaurus cant actually topspin the ball with the hand only (no body use) with decent spin. Until this can be done at 90+% accuracy, any talk about body usage or stroke trajectory is incredibly premature. You gotta learn how to walk before you can run.

 

[Archosaurus]

@blahness

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I've been told the same, especially by H3 users at my club. "Hit more!".
To me it feels like I'm always barely missing the ball and just grazing it with the topsheet. I think I can do it better when I hit a ball I fed to myself, but not against a real ball. Sometimes I might be accidentally making a better contact when playing vs higher division players who rush me on every shot, but I don't know. They feel pretty flat but sometimes they'll get blocked out with a big arc or fly into the rafters, so I'm not sure they're an actual flat hit.

I think I have an easier time opening up against really heavy backspin, as in from a chopper. I can hit 2, maybe 3 strong loops vs choppers before I feel like I need to touch it to reset. Whenever they lighten the spin the ball tends to go out.

I'm definitely not able to get a chop over the net with just my forearm and wrist if that's what you mean. I can get a light backspin feed over with just my forearm and wrist. I've demonstrated it a few times before when some beginner asked me about how to get backspin over the net without pushing it. I can film what I mean next time if I remember.

 

[blahness]

@blahness

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I've been told the same, especially by H3 users at my club. "Hit more!".
To me it feels like I'm always barely missing the ball and just grazing it with the topsheet. I think I can do it better when I hit a ball I fed to myself, but not against a real ball. Sometimes I might be accidentally making a better contact when playing vs higher division players who rush me on every shot, but I don't know. They feel pretty flat but sometimes they'll get blocked out with a big arc or fly into the rafters, so I'm not sure they're an actual flat hit.

I think I have an easier time opening up against really heavy backspin, as in from a chopper. I can hit 2, maybe 3 strong loops vs choppers before I feel like I need to touch it to reset. Whenever they lighten the spin the ball tends to go out.

I'm definitely not able to get a chop over the net with just my forearm and wrist if that's what you mean. I can get a light backspin feed over with just my forearm and wrist. I've demonstrated it a few times before when some beginner asked me about how to get backspin over the net without pushing it. I can film what I mean next time if I remember.

Yes i can tell precisely from the video you shared. If you go through the Ti Long video (esp the latter half where he talks about contact), and do the basic practice of using hand/arm only to topspin a heavy underspin ball). Once you figure out how to do it with ease and it is well practiced, then only you can start adding body power to it.

Even for topspin vs block, you learnt countering before topspin right? Same here against underspin

 

[Archosaurus]

Yes i can tell precisely from the video you shared. If you go through the Ti Long video (esp the latter half where he talks about contact), and do the basic practice of using hand/arm only to topspin a heavy underspin ball). Once you figure out how to do it with ease and it is well practiced, then only you can start adding body power to it.

Even for topspin vs block, you learnt countering before topspin right? Same here against underspin

Would an useful drill be to have my partner push my serve with spin and I just try to get it over the net with my arm only? Then when I can do that in my sleep, slowly add some more backswing and body into it?

 

[Haito]

I have a stupid, but correct reflection. Eating with chopsticks teaches you correct muscle tension for table tennis. If I do not control the hand muscles correctly, holding stuff with chopsticks hurts. If I tension only the thumb and index finger, its fine. 🤔

 

[Tyce]

I literally see people with way uglier strokes be way more consistent opening against underspin than you, and that is simply because they understand the concept. Body use is nice and all but is useless until you grasp the contact concept.

I don't think the problem is in grasping the context in the intellectual sense, in fact I think that might be what's holding back progress. Those people with way uglier strokes have likely learned to find the right feeling, rather than understanding what they are doing.

 

[blahness]

Would an useful drill be to have my partner push my serve with spin and I just try to get it over the net with my arm only? Then when I can do that in my sleep, slowly add some more backswing and body into it?

No, literally ask him to serve a long underspin and you can do this. If you serve then you also need to recover properly and that overcomplicates things. Multiball feeding by a partner is even better if you can buy a box of balls and a ball picker. It is literally the fastest way to improve.

 

[blahness]

I don't think the problem is in grasping the context in the intellectual sense, in fact I think that might be what's holding back progress. Those people with way uglier strokes have likely learned to find the right feeling, rather than understanding what they are doing.

But you see that approach also leads to some people playing for 30 years without getting the 'right' feeling and never getting a good reliable loop against underspin. This is why, being able to describe it precisely can help save some people from that.

 

[blahness]

I have a stupid, but correct reflection. Eating with chopsticks teaches you correct muscle tension for table tennis. If I do not control the hand muscles correctly, holding stuff with chopsticks hurts. If I tension only the thumb and index finger, its fine. 🤔

Yes but there's a lot of people who never hold chopsticks properly xD

 

[Archosaurus]

No, literally ask him to serve a long underspin and you can do this. If you serve then you also need to recover properly and that overcomplicates things. Multiball feeding by a partner is even better if you can buy a box of balls and a ball picker. It is literally the fastest way to improve.

Sure, probably not more inconsistent than his return will be in hindsight. And he gets to practice serving with more spin.

 

[Tyce]

But you see that approach also leads to some people playing for 30 years without getting the 'right' feeling and never getting a good reliable loop against underspin. This is why, being able to describe it precisely can help save some people from that.

Yup, it's best to have a little bit of both (isn't it always?)