What Are Hybrid Table Tennis Rubbers and Why Are They So Popular Nowadays?

[Archosaurus]

Cool I will check @Archosaurus thanks! And agreed, it's always a bit of a puzzle with Chinese products, naming of versions and subversions goes a bit left and right haha

Sellers seem to suggest that the packaging changes are just branding changes and the product is the same. Maybe they've changed it, but at least it's not a separate version.

So there's Training, Pro, Classic Pro and Professional.

 

[victormanriquey]

None of this is scientifically verified, but:

The different National versions are more or less dense formulations of Seamoon with a dye. The order should be something like Black > White > Yellow > Seamoon. I don't know where Red, Brown, 2017 or any other obscure versions fall.

The peak effect lasts a day or two or so, then a stable high effect for 1 to 2 weeks (Haifu claims +8.5% for 1 week for Black), then drop off to nothing after about 3 to 4 weeks.

They all soften the sponge maximally as much (Maxing out at around 9deg softening for many sponges I've boosted 4-6 times to see where it reaches asymptote) although the stronger national boosters soften it faster, and denser sponges soften more per layer.

Black softens the sponge the easiest and Seamoon the hardest. However you need less of Black to get a similar elasticity effect as with Seamoon, so maybe there's a breakpoint where you get more elasticity than you get softening. I have no clue where the idea that Black softens the sponge less comes from; I find on average 1deg more per layer (2ml or so) than with Seamoon.

I've found on less dense sponges with Seamoon it can be as little as 1deg per layer, while on dense sponges with Black it can be as much as 3deg per layer.

In practical use I haven't noticed a real difference other than National boosters are stronger so you can get less added racket mass for the same softening and elasticity. Black and White are a lot stickier and much harder to evenly apply than Seamoon, and harder to drain back into the bottle. I haven't tried Yellow but under spectrometry it's identical to Seamoon so it's probably just a denser variant as well.

Yeah its really hard to find something scientifical on this, it's just tests of people doing their best
But indeed I agree my new national yellow is thicker than the commercial I have, that I can tell you.
There is indeed a peak period of 1-2 weeks in the commercial, then it's back to like semi boosted, then after around 1-2 months its pretty much dead again with a slight feeling of being boosted, it does play easier then.
For the national they claim that it lasts longer, let's see, it would make sense if its more concentrated.
I haven't tested black so I trust you on that @Archosaurus , need to test more in future the different colors to say

 

[Archosaurus]

Yeah its really hard to find something scientifical on this, it's just tests of people doing their best
But indeed I agree my new national yellow is thicker than the commercial I have, that I can tell you.
There is indeed a peak period of 1-2 weeks in the commercial, then it's back to like semi boosted, then after around 1-2 months its pretty much dead again with a slight feeling of being boosted, it does play easier then.
For the national they claim that it lasts longer, let's see, it would make sense if its more concentrated.
I haven't tested black so I trust you on that @Archosaurus , need to test more in future the different colors to say

The top end speed and hardness reduction does go away quickly. In fact most of the hardness reduction probably reverts towards the unboosted level just from gluing, because the hardness goes way up as soon as I glue then measure topsheet when it's attached to the blade. I don't remember how much it is because I never wrote it down, but most of it comes back after gluing. I would expect hardness to go down further because there's more stuff in series with the rubber.

I should check some time if it also goes up a bit more after removing from the blade right after. I didn't confirm when I measured one time if it was an effect of the gluing or the removing, I only measured it after removing. Hardness on a Battle 2 Gold went from 44.0 O to 47.0 O from gluing then removing. Unboosted was 49.0 O.

So most of the effect you will lose is the top end speed. However I feel like the bottom speed lasts somewhat permanently, until you've boosted around 6-8 layers after which that starts to reduce as well.
Although so much boosting in my case has always been coupled with use over a couple months, so it might just be the trauma from impacts destroying the sponge and topsheet.
If you boost a sheet once or twice even infrequently, it will become a bit more hybrid-like somewhat permanently. Maybe not for months and months, but longer than a few weeks. Until you overdo it and then it seems to become worse overall.

The thing you need to be careful with here is that:
A: It's really difficult to measure things like elasticity without destroying the sponge, so forming a curve of measurements with reliable parameters is very difficult/costly
B: It's really difficult to make useful inferences from lab data because practical use often isn't normalized to what you'd normalize the lab data to
C: Finding what to normalize the lab data to is very difficult because a lot of parameters are inherently tied to eachother

So us tabletennis equipment sickos will probably never actually find a definitive answer to the physics aspect of it which is why I stick to very practical-normalized things like "layers" and not masses or volumes.

A simulation would help a lot, but rubber is one of the more complicated materials to model and small errors can really skew the outputs of the simulation a lot due to the relatively high volatility of the structures, so you might even make the wrong conclusions from a sim unless it's very expertly made.

 

[victormanriquey]

The top end speed and hardness reduction does go away quickly. In fact most of the hardness reduction probably reverts towards the unboosted level just from gluing, because the hardness goes way up as soon as I glue then measure topsheet when it's attached to the blade. I don't remember how much it is because I never wrote it down, but most of it comes back after gluing. I would expect hardness to go down further because there's more stuff in series with the rubber.

I should check some time if it also goes up a bit more after removing from the blade right after. I didn't confirm when I measured one time if it was an effect of the gluing or the removing, I only measured it after removing. Hardness on a Battle 2 Gold went from 44.0 O to 47.0 O from gluing then removing. Unboosted was 49.0 O.

So most of the effect you will lose is the top end speed. However I feel like the bottom speed lasts somewhat permanently, until you've boosted around 6-8 layers after which that starts to reduce as well.
Although so much boosting in my case has always been coupled with use over a couple months, so it might just be the trauma from impacts destroying the sponge and topsheet.
If you boost a sheet once or twice even infrequently, it will become a bit more hybrid-like somewhat permanently. Maybe not for months and months, but longer than a few weeks. Until you overdo it and then it seems to become worse overall.

The thing you need to be careful with here is that:
A: It's really difficult to measure things like elasticity without destroying the sponge, so forming a curve of measurements with reliable parameters is very difficult/costly
B: It's really difficult to make useful inferences from lab data because practical use often isn't normalized to what you'd normalize the lab data to
C: Finding what to normalize the lab data to is very difficult because a lot of parameters are inherently tied to eachother

So us tabletennis equipment sickos will probably never actually find a definitive answer to the physics aspect of it which is why I stick to very practical-normalized things like "layers" and not masses or volumes.

A simulation would help a lot, but rubber is one of the more complicated materials to model and small errors can really skew the outputs of the simulation a lot due to the relatively high volatility of the structures, so you might even make the wrong conclusions from a sim unless it's very expertly made.

Thanks for the details you mentioned here

And yeah, for me usually hardness goes back to normal after a bit, it is a bit softer and it will remain a bit softer, but the deadness is often almost purely back after 1 month or so, with national maybe 6 weeks, let's see now when I test with that.

6-8 layers is a lot haha my chinese contact said max 4 for blue sponge, I've never boosted more than 4 times but with month intervals so I cannot say 6 or 8 what happens, sponge will be indeed in a bad shape, maybe too mushy?

Yeah agreed, normalized data is super hard and maybe even just too much hassle, I think we can get close to the reality since a lot of people boost so mostly experiences are similar. Trick is to find how much you like to boost, how long without reboost etc (or even never reboost and remove sheet after 3-4 months to new one).

 

[Archosaurus]

Thanks for the details you mentioned here

And yeah, for me usually hardness goes back to normal after a bit, it is a bit softer and it will remain a bit softer, but the deadness is often almost purely back after 1 month or so, with national maybe 6 weeks, let's see now when I test with that.

6-8 layers is a lot haha my chinese contact said max 4 for blue sponge, I've never boosted more than 4 times but with month intervals so I cannot say 6 or 8 what happens, sponge will be indeed in a bad shape, maybe too mushy?

Yeah agreed, normalized data is super hard and maybe even just too much hassle, I think we can get close to the reality since a lot of people boost so mostly experiences are similar. Trick is to find how much you like to boost, how long without reboost etc (or even never reboost and remove sheet after 3-4 months to new one).

I did 6 layers of National White and 2 layers of National Black over about 2 months. That's total layers over time, not at one time. Blue sponge costs a bit too much to kill it by trying to shove 20ml into it LOL.

I don't know what's the proper CNT wanker boosting method or whatever but I personally do 1, maybe 2 if it's a particularly stubborn one like Battle 2. Speed isn't a premium at any club level around here so I prefer the less hassle and more control from 1 layer. Blue sponge curls up like crazy even from 2.

I think it's silly to boost with 3, 4 layers then spend a week waiting for the curl to die down, and by then you've lost the peak elasticity anyway, so boosting with 1-2 layer would have been better anyway. There's a reason Haifu instructions say 1-2. I know some CNT guys advocate boosting more, up to 5 layers, over like a week, and hell, they're the pros and not me so who am I to say they're wrong, but I think it's silly. It's weird they don't seem to have a chemist who just understands what exactly is going on and has made guidelines for them.

The hardness was *exactly* the same as the day I opened it, but the elasticity was gone. It had become very slow even for H3. Spin was still there but it was just too physical to play with anymore, being a 41A sponge. Maybe if it was 37A it'd still be usable easily. The rubber wasn't slow per-se but it felt unboosted and not much softer either despite just having been hit with a few layers of national booster. Probably if I had been boosting it once a month 1 layer it'd have been overall faster after 2 months, and probably a few more months after that too. So the hardness might not get impacted but the elasticity really seems to.

I had the same experience for a 2 years old almost unused but opened orange sponge; it wouldn't curl and it was hard and inflexible. I boosted it a bit and it just removed a lot of the reverse dome, and I kept adding booster but it didn't get any faster. I think I did 10 layers and it just stopped changing after 5 or so.

 

[victormanriquey]

I did 6 layers of National White and 2 layers of National Black over about 2 months. That's total layers over time, not at one time. Blue sponge costs a bit too much to kill it by trying to shove 20ml into it LOL.

I don't know what's the proper CNT wanker boosting method or whatever but I personally do 1, maybe 2 if it's a particularly stubborn one like Battle 2. Speed isn't a premium at any club level around here so I prefer the less hassle and more control from 1 layer. Blue sponge curls up like crazy even from 2.

I think it's silly to boost with 3, 4 layers then spend a week waiting for the curl to die down, and by then you've lost the peak elasticity anyway, so boosting with 1-2 layer would have been better anyway. There's a reason Haifu instructions say 1-2. I know some CNT guys advocate boosting more, up to 5 layers, over like a week, and hell, they're the pros and not me so who am I to say they're wrong, but I think it's silly. It's weird they don't seem to have a chemist who just understands what exactly is going on and has made guidelines for them.

The hardness was *exactly* the same as the day I opened it, but the elasticity was gone. It had become very slow even for H3. Spin was still there but it was just too physical to play with anymore, being a 41A sponge. Maybe if it was 37A it'd still be usable easily. The rubber wasn't slow per-se but it felt unboosted and not much softer either despite just having been hit with a few layers of national booster. Probably if I had been boosting it once a month 1 layer it'd have been overall faster after 2 months, and probably a few more months after that too. So the hardness might not get impacted but the elasticity really seems to.

I had the same experience for a 2 years old almost unused but opened orange sponge; it wouldn't curl and it was hard and inflexible. I boosted it a bit and it just removed a lot of the reverse dome, and I kept adding booster but it didn't get any faster. I think I did 10 layers and it just stopped changing after 5 or so.

haha all good, yeah what china CNT does is not often what we amateurs need to do, contol over speed for us

And yes I always do 1 or 2 thats all, usually blue 2, orange 1

 

[Crillo]

Because anyone who trains seriously seems to say it looses performance in about 3 weeks, or 6 weeks for casual play, so for non-sponsored players its insanity to recommend. For performance when fresh people have nothing but praise.

I completely agree that K3 loses its grip and becomes almost unusable after just two weeks. In my experience, though, many other modern hybrids suffer from the same problem. I know of several ESN hybrids that lose their tackiness after only 20–30 hours of play. I think we’ll start seeing more rubbers like Tibhar’s Infinity range, with durable, grippy top sheets and hard sponge.

 

[Archosaurus]

I completely agree that K3 loses its grip and becomes almost unusable after just two weeks. In my experience, though, many other modern hybrids suffer from the same problem. I know of several ESN hybrids that lose their tackiness after only 20–30 hours of play. I think we’ll start seeing more rubbers like Tibhar’s Infinity range, with durable, grippy top sheets and hard sponge.

Isn't Infinity super boosted like Evolution was? AFAIK the problem is the sponge changes a ton and can't be brought back to how it was.

It's really great if that's not an issue anymore.

 

[victormanriquey]

Yes many of the new hybrid tensors have a better topsheet and a harder sponge indeed, that trend is here to stay, even rakza 7 has now a harder version

 

[Archosaurus]

I played a bit more today with Dianchi D Classic Pro and I gotta say that in most things it's a great alternative to H3, but in the big cracking shots the quality just isn't there to the same severity. I think the sponge is softer in higher deflections than H3 is for the same shore stiffness.

I measured it again with no factory glue and it's still harder than even H3 41A blue sponge, but I feel like that's a bit misleading.

Dianchi D Pro blue packet 40A 2.20 BLACK glue removed
Topsheet 29.0 - 29.5 A / 52.5 - 53.5 O
Sponge 42.0 - 42.5 A / 57.5 - 58.5 O

I think if you're a higher level player this difference will be amplified, because most of the time I'm not making a huge cracking shot.

That being said it's still the closest thing to H3 I've tried and I like it a lot and will keep it on my blade for a while. I just won't buy more unless they stop making H3 LOL.

EDIT: Or not, it had peeled majorly at a point where I hit a bunch of edges, so the H3 is going back.

 

[Crillo]

Isn't Infinity super boosted like Evolution was? AFAIK the problem is the sponge changes a ton and can't be brought back to how it was.

It's really great if that's not an issue anymore.

Correct! Infinity top sheet and K3 sponge would be a winner. MX-S Infinity sponge is not very good. Top sheet is amazing.

 

[Archosaurus]

Correct! Infinity top sheet and K3 sponge would be a winner. MX-S Infinity sponge is not very good. Top sheet is amazing.

Paying 100aud~ for something that lasts a few weeks to a month doesn't sound like a great value proposition to me. At that point I'd rather buy Tenergy or Dignics and get 3 out of them.

 

[Crillo]

Paying 100aud~ for something that lasts a few weeks to a month doesn't sound like a great value proposition to me. At that point I'd rather buy Tenergy or Dignics and get 3 out of them.

Infinity last longer than ESN hybrids. K3 Sponge is one of the very best on the market today. But K3 Infinty don´t exist yet : )

 

[Archosaurus]

Infinity last longer than ESN hybrids. K3 Sponge is one of the very best on the market today. But K3 Infinty don´t exist yet : )

How many hours is longer than ESN hybrids? I don't really even look at anything that keeps performance for less than 100 hours.

 

[victormanriquey]

How many hours is longer than ESN hybrids? I don't really even look at anything that keeps performance for less than 100 hours.

For me 100h is the minimum to at least play one season with it, lower than that I don't go for, but sponsored players or if you can get cheap rubbers is a different storry

 

[jkugin]

Returning to the topic at hand, another thought occurred to me regarding the popularity of hybrid rubbers.

Like most people here, I’m an amateur who plays table tennis for fun. Sometimes I just practice, and I’ve never seen amateurs actually drill service returns—in my view, those are the most tedious drills of all. Yet, tacky Chinese rubbers make returning serves much easier. Hybrid rubbers also facilitate easier service returns but don't require the kind of physical conditioning that professional athletes possess.

Maybe it’s just me, but years ago I sacrificed shot speed for the sake of better service returns. That change made table tennis more enjoyable for me, even though my competitive results suffered as a result.

 

[victormanriquey]

Returning to the topic at hand, another thought occurred to me regarding the popularity of hybrid rubbers.

Like most people here, I’m an amateur who plays table tennis for fun. Sometimes I just practice, and I’ve never seen amateurs actually drill service returns—in my view, those are the most tedious drills of all. Yet, tacky Chinese rubbers make returning serves much easier. Hybrid rubbers also facilitate easier service returns but don't require the kind of physical conditioning that professional athletes possess.

Maybe it’s just me, but years ago I sacrificed shot speed for the sake of better service returns. That change made table tennis more enjoyable for me, even though my competitive results suffered as a result.

Yes agreed and not only returns, serves, soft touches, and difficult shots all benefit from more linearity and a bit of tackiness, same as all other normal shots by the way, especially when you look at it from a control point of view

 

[Tyce]

Yes agreed and not only returns, serves, soft touches, and difficult shots all benefit from more linearity and a bit of tackiness, same as all other normal shots by the way, especially when you look at it from a control point of view

Sometimes it feels like we finally realize grippy, bouncy tensors aren't all that good for anything that isn't continuous fast play...
Exaggerated of course, but I never felt right about giving up so much in short control over the table, compared to classic rubbers.

 

[Crillo]

How many hours is longer than ESN hybrids? I don't really even look at anything that keeps performance for less than 100 hours.

ESN Hybrid has av very short life span if you ask me. One my friends have MX-S Infinity on BH now for over a month and the top sheet looks like new. He trains 10-15 hours a week. But it´s not a Hybrid. MX-P Infinity have a very strong top sheet as well.

 

[Archosaurus]

ESN Hybrid has av very short life span if you ask me. One my friends have MX-S Infinity on BH now for over a month and the top sheet looks like new. He trains 10-15 hours a week. But it´s not a Hybrid. MX-P Infinity have a very strong top sheet as well.

Wow, great. That's about as much as I play so I might have similar results.

What about the sponge? Has it weakened at all?