ALC vs ZLC

[deepanmania]

I've recently talked with a TT veteran who played nationals during his prime and currently selling TT equipments and has a very good knowledge of the equipments.
During the conversation, he told me that ZLC is slower than ALC and ZLC has a much better sweet spot than ALC. Till now I was under the impression that in terms of speed in Butterfly terms ALC < SALC < ZLC < SZLC < T5000. But he said that ZLC has a much better sweet spot, so it feels like ZLC is faster than ALC. But in terms of raw speed ZLC is faster. Then I checked the butterfly blade matrix and the reaction property for all the ALC and ZLC blades is 11.8 and 11.7 and the vibration is 10.3 and 10.8. I know that ZLCs are hard and ALC tends to sink in the vibration.
But in terms of raw speed ZLCs are slower than ALC which means ZLCs have more controllable speed, more sweet spot and more feedback. So ideally ZLCs are easy to control and have a better feeling/feedback than ALCs?
Butterfly blade matrix source: https://butterflyonline.com/Templates/BladeSpecifications.pdf
FYI: I'm using FZD ALC and have never tried ZLCs.

 

[Creek]

You forgot, that zlc blades get a similar speed with less thickness. So if the thickness would be the same, zlc would be faster

-> zlc is harder and faster than alc (+ has more catapult)

 

[TensorBackhand]

I've recently talked with a TT veteran who played nationals during his prime and currently selling TT equipments and has a very good knowledge of the equipments.
During the conversation, he told me that ZLC is slower than ALC and ZLC has a much better sweet spot than ALC. Till now I was under the impression that in terms of speed in Butterfly terms ALC < SALC < ZLC < SZLC < T5000. But he said that ZLC has a much better sweet spot, so it feels like ZLC is faster than ALC. But in terms of raw speed ZLC is faster. Then I checked the butterfly blade matrix and the reaction property for all the ALC and ZLC blades is 11.8 and 11.7 and the vibration is 10.3 and 10.8. I know that ZLCs are hard and ALC tends to sink in the vibration.
But in terms of raw speed ZLCs are slower than ALC which means ZLCs have more controllable speed, more sweet spot and more feedback. So ideally ZLCs are easy to control and have a better feeling/feedback than ALCs?
Butterfly blade matrix source: https://butterflyonline.com/Templates/BladeSpecifications.pdf
FYI: I'm using FZD ALC and have never tried ZLCs.
View attachment 29340

My impression is that ZLC is faster than ALC, but Butterfly compensates for this difference by making ZLC blades thinner in general. I used to have TB ZLC and it felt a little faster than Viscaria, but also thinner and airyer.

I think Harimoto SZLC is one of the major exceptions to being thinner.

 

[deepanmania]

You forgot, that zlc blades get a similar speed with less thickness. So if the thickness would be the same, zlc would be faster

-> zlc is harder and faster than alc (+ has more catapult)

My impression is that ZLC is faster than ALC, but Butterfly compensates for this difference by making ZLC blades thinner in general. I used to have TB ZLC and it felt a little faster than Viscaria, but also thinner and airyer.

I think Harimoto SZLC is one of the major exceptions to being thinner.

Got it, I missed the fact that ZLC blades have thinner cores.
But still in this case also as per butterfly FZD ZLC has a lesser reaction rating than FZD ALC (very small 0.1) and again because ZLCs have a great sweet spot and more feedback, Does FZD ZLC feel and play better(control, forgiving, I don't care about speed at this point) than FZD ALC?
I'm not gonna change it right away, I'm so comfortable with my current racket. But Just out of curiosity, I'm asking this, I might buy one as an EJ

 

[TensorBackhand]

Got it, I missed the fact that ZLC blades have thinner cores.
But still in this case also as per butterfly FZD ZLC has a lesser reaction rating than FZD ALC (very small 0.1) and again because ZLCs have a great sweet spot and more feedback, Does FZD ZLC feel and play better(control, forgiving, I don't care about speed at this point) than FZD ALC?
I'm not gonna change it right away, I'm so comfortable with my current racket. But Just out of curiosity, I'm asking this, I might buy one as an EJ

I'm not the most experienced person with butterfly blades, but my impression is that the ALC blades feel more solid and linear.

The ZLC blades feel thinner and flexier, but also springier.

So it's a bit like D05 vs T05. D05 is harder and more solid, T05 is more elastic.

 

[ander999]

Also worth mentioning ZLC is more direct compared to ALC, ALC has more arc and the directness of ZLC make them feel faster.

 

[deepanmania]

I'm not the most experienced person with butterfly blades, but my impression is that the ALC blades feel more solid and linear.

The ZLC blades feel thinner and flexier, but also springier.

So it's a bit like D05 vs T05. D05 is harder and more solid, T05 is more elastic.

Also worth mentioning ZLC is more direct compared to ALC, ALC has more arc and the directness of ZLC make them feel faster.

Gotcha, so it will be a completely different feel than ALC. Then I put my EJing purchase into something else 😅

 

[TensorBackhand]

Gotcha, so it will be a completely different feel than ALC. Then I put my EJing purchase into something else 😅

Well I personally think that the overall construction/thickness of the blade plays a much bigger part than the specific wood-type or the carbon type.

 

[deepanmania]

Well I personally think that the overall construction/thickness of the blade plays a much bigger part than the specific wood-type or the carbon type.

I like my FZD ALC so much. Its weight balance, vibration, and crisp feel are almost perfect for me. So I thought of buying one more blade on the same series to try with other rubbers. But from the above discussions I've concluded that ZLC will give an entirely different feel than ALC blades. So I might go with one more FZD ALC.

 

[hclnnkhg]

My impression is that ZLC is faster than ALC, but Butterfly compensates for this difference by making ZLC blades thinner in general. I used to have TB ZLC and it felt a little faster than Viscaria, but also thinner and airyer.

I think Harimoto SZLC is one of the major exceptions to being thinner.

Aren't all Harimoto blades inner-fibre? Yet another variable!

 

[deepanmania]

Aren't all Harimoto blades inner-fibre? Yet another variable!

Franziska innerforce zlc too with the same composition

 

[turbozed]

I don't know the exact physics behind all of this stuff, but it seems a bit meaningless to say one is "faster" or "slower" without specifying what the input force is. What we perceive as a fast or slow ball might be unreliable to begin with.

A straight ball with less arc may reach the other side of the table 'faster' but it might be slower in absolute terms than a ball that has an arc and is covering more distance.

There are other factors like ball gaining or at least maintaining more speed due to more spin. Balls with little to no spin might leave the racket fast but lose momentum by the time it hits the other side of the table. So even though it may have more absolute speed initially, it may be easier for the opponent deal with because it's losing speed at a predictable rate. To the opponent, the kick from a spinny ball will seem 'faster' because it's harder to deal with.

IMO the biggest problem wish saying this blade or rubber is "faster" than another is that you have to consider the type and input power of the shot itself. We all know that softer sponged tensor rubbers can generate more and spin speed on soft and medium power, but it'll bottom out with high power input. Compare that to harder sponge rubbers that are more direct at low power but can store and release more potential energy at the high end.

So we know it's more reasonable to talk about 'speed' (the output) as it relates to the input power range when it comes to rubbers. When we talk about something like ZLC and ALC, the same concept should work to maybe a lesser extent. If a material is harder, it's going to have more initial rebound since there's less absorption perpendicular to the blade. So if you're blocking or flat hitting then the shots should result in a faster output ball.

ALC being softer means that it should have less initial rebound but more ability to absorb and 'collect' input power, since the ball just doesn't shoot off the blade it can deform and release the power. Again, just in theory.

Then you add into this mix the different properties of the wood plies and how the system interacts with the rubbers attached, and the different angular inputs produce spin and lengthen/shorten the time of contact, and you have a whole mess of physics that will be impossible to parse through.

So maybe you can say that your friend, given his specific ZLC blade, combinined with his rubbers of choice, and with his specific execution of shots, with his specific input power, that ZLC may be slower *for him.* But 100 different players will have 100 different impressions.

So if you want to see which one is faster or slower, then the only option for you is to play with both and see for yourself. At that point you will say "well I personally think ALC is faster" and that'd be a valid impression. But maybe over time your shot selection, execution, or the rubbers you use will change and then you might change your mind and find ZLC faster. At that point, it might be reasonable to conclude that the question itself is either too vague or meaningless to bother considering in the first place.

 

[Tinykin]

The term you are looking for is 'flash to bang'.
That's why a ball from a simple push from an lp ox player can arrive so much quicker than your boosted whatever.

 

[deepanmania]

So we know it's more reasonable to talk about 'speed' (the output) as it relates to the input power range when it comes to rubbers. When we talk about something like ZLC and ALC, the same concept should work to maybe a lesser extent. If a material is harder, it's going to have more initial rebound since there's less absorption perpendicular to the blade. So if you're blocking or flat hitting then the shots should result in a faster output ball.

ALC being softer means that it should have less initial rebound but more ability to absorb and 'collect' input power, since the ball just doesn't shoot off the blade it can deform and release the power. Again, just in theory.

Then you add into this mix the different properties of the wood plies and how the system interacts with the rubbers attached, and the different angular inputs produce spin and lengthen/shorten the time of contact, and you have a whole mess of physics that will be impossible to parse through.

So maybe you can say that your friend, given his specific ZLC blade, combinined with his rubbers of choice, and with his specific execution of shots, with his specific input power, that ZLC may be slower *for him.* But 100 different players will have 100 different impressions.

So if you want to see which one is faster or slower, then the only option for you is to play with both and see for yourself. At that point you will say "well I personally think ALC is faster" and that'd be a valid impression. But maybe over time your shot selection, execution, or the rubbers you use will change and then you might change your mind and find ZLC faster. At that point, it might be reasonable to conclude that the question itself is either too vague or meaningless to bother considering in the first place.

Such a nice explanation. Now I have some clarity. Just with the carbon material we cannot judge a blade's behaviour, which differs from person to person based on their playing style.
At this point, I completely agree with you.

 

[jackywongtt]

I don't know the exact physics behind all of this stuff, but it seems a bit meaningless to say one is "faster" or "slower" without specifying what the input force is. What we perceive as a fast or slow ball might be unreliable to begin with.

A straight ball with less arc may reach the other side of the table 'faster' but it might be slower in absolute terms than a ball that has an arc and is covering more distance.

There are other factors like ball gaining or at least maintaining more speed due to more spin. Balls with little to no spin might leave the racket fast but lose momentum by the time it hits the other side of the table. So even though it may have more absolute speed initially, it may be easier for the opponent deal with because it's losing speed at a predictable rate. To the opponent, the kick from a spinny ball will seem 'faster' because it's harder to deal with.

IMO the biggest problem wish saying this blade or rubber is "faster" than another is that you have to consider the type and input power of the shot itself. We all know that softer sponged tensor rubbers can generate more and spin speed on soft and medium power, but it'll bottom out with high power input. Compare that to harder sponge rubbers that are more direct at low power but can store and release more potential energy at the high end.

So we know it's more reasonable to talk about 'speed' (the output) as it relates to the input power range when it comes to rubbers. When we talk about something like ZLC and ALC, the same concept should work to maybe a lesser extent. If a material is harder, it's going to have more initial rebound since there's less absorption perpendicular to the blade. So if you're blocking or flat hitting then the shots should result in a faster output ball.

ALC being softer means that it should have less initial rebound but more ability to absorb and 'collect' input power, since the ball just doesn't shoot off the blade it can deform and release the power. Again, just in theory.

Then you add into this mix the different properties of the wood plies and how the system interacts with the rubbers attached, and the different angular inputs produce spin and lengthen/shorten the time of contact, and you have a whole mess of physics that will be impossible to parse through.

So maybe you can say that your friend, given his specific ZLC blade, combinined with his rubbers of choice, and with his specific execution of shots, with his specific input power, that ZLC may be slower *for him.* But 100 different players will have 100 different impressions.

So if you want to see which one is faster or slower, then the only option for you is to play with both and see for yourself. At that point you will say "well I personally think ALC is faster" and that'd be a valid impression. But maybe over time your shot selection, execution, or the rubbers you use will change and then you might change your mind and find ZLC faster. At that point, it might be reasonable to conclude that the question itself is either too vague or meaningless to bother considering in the first place.

Definitely having much more clarity on the subject, thanks a lot🙇🏻‍♂️ Having that said, maybe the discussion and go on by everyone sharing their setup used and personal/opponent feedback on speed, roughly in terms of low/med/high forces and spinning/flat hit? Sometimes incomprehensive or even vague comments can be contributive when all opinions are statistically collected.

(Saw a custom Harimoto FH + Viscaria BH at very good price, that's why I'm looking at as much info as possible and hoping there are more insightful sharings around)

 

[Rinforzando]

I think you should look for feel before looking for anything else. Don't bother with speed, control, etc. You can improve speed with a better technique, or the same blade but heavier. Very often, if you like your blade a lot because you have a good feel with it, every thing else will come: control, power, etc.

I have tested the 2 fibers and I prefer zlc. The feel is more woody compared to alc, which is quite likeable, and the arc is straighter which I also like. Perhaps ALC or ZLC is faster, I don't know because it is not by much so at the end it is pretty irrelevant.

 

[deepanmania]

I think you should look for feel before looking for anything else. Don't bother with speed, control, etc. You can improve speed with a better technique, or the same blade but heavier. Very often, if you like your blade a lot because you have a good feel with it, every thing else will come: control, power, etc.

I have tested the 2 fibers and I prefer zlc. The feel is more woody compared to alc, which is quite likeable, and the arc is straighter which I also like. Perhaps ALC or ZLC is faster, I don't know because it is not by much so at the end it is pretty irrelevant.

Yes irrespective of the fibers, feel is important. I tried the Amultart(ZLC) + MX-P of my clubmate last week. It felt more softer than my FZD ALC. Maybe it's because of the Hinoki vs Koto in my FZD outer layer. Amultart felt softer and FZD ALC has that crisp feel. And I didn't feel any increase in speed or stiffness. I need to try out more ZLCs.

 

[Rinforzando]

Yes irrespective of the fibers, feel is important. I tried the Amultart(ZLC) + MX-P of my clubmate last week. It felt more softer than my FZD ALC. Maybe it's because of the Hinoki vs Koto in my FZD outer layer. Amultart felt softer and FZD ALC has that crisp feel. And I didn't feel any increase in speed or stiffness. I need to try out more ZLCs.

It's like F1 cars. For us, amateurs, racing with the RB car or Williams car won't change a thing despite having some differences at pro level. Those little tinies adjustments they make on their cars making it faster or slower in corners or straight are irrelevant for us, it is only relevant when you use the maximum possibilty of the car.

Same goes for ZLC and ALC, maybe when you exploit the blade fully you can expect a little bit more speed on a fiber, a little more spin. What is truly relevant is the feel, because even us at the amateur level can feel the difference in the touch. More woody, more curved arc, crispier, etc. It is something we can experiment even though we don't exploit fully the blade.

At the end, just enjoy and play with something you like, everything else will came eventually.

On a side note (and do not take it too seriously), it is important to play with a blade you like for its characteristic AND its aesthetic. There is a psychological factor that when you're play with a beautiful blade, feeling, control, speed... are enhanced. Some people don't care about aesthetic at all, so they are not concerned by this.
From my personal experience, I am to a certain extend. That's why I play now with custom blade 95% of the time, because quality, craftmanship, customization is above everything else a TT brand can offer.