Why Do We Let the Returner Control the Pace?

NextLevel · Sep 8, 2015

I have always wondered about this - why does the server always have to wait for the returner to be ready, even if the returner is taking a ridiculous amount of time? Shouldn't there be a maximum time between points for umpired matches at least? Or will that just cause trouble as another unenforceable rule?

Thoughts are welcome. I would prefer that there be a 30 second max between serves as the pace controlled by the server, but the returner can halt the server in the first 20 seconds. So that gives the server the ability to pause for 10 seconds more as part of their advantage. The ITTF could make money by selling a small clock that easily helps enforce this rule, making it a win-win for everyone involved, including the ITTF officials who are unwilling to enforce rules that the manufacturers cannot make money off of if enforced...

UpSideDownCarl · Sep 8, 2015

Isn't there a time restriction between points. I though I remembered Ma Lin getting warned for this a few times towards the end of his career.

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aerial · Sep 8, 2015

Although the server has to wait for the receiver, I think more often than not most servers wait a little bit longer after the receiver has acknowledged readiness, so the server still does control the pace.

fanTT · Sep 8, 2015

Nobody is gonna count time between every point.
Advice: don't wait him - just make a serve (don't waste energy on good serve) then the returner will start irritate. And do that as long as you need and make him feel nervous about that

Eventually even an umpire should notice that something is not ok with returner

anchorschmidt · Sep 8, 2015

Zhang Jike got a yellow card in the World Cup 2014 against Timo Boll as he was taking too much time. You can still take your time after the receiver is ready.

raazzz · Sep 9, 2015

Yes I think there is a rule that says you can't slow down the tempo to much. I have also seen some yellow card becasue of this.

Baal · Sep 9, 2015

Let's not make things more complicated than they are.

raazzz · Sep 9, 2015

Baal said:
Let's not make things more complicated than they are.

Must agree on this one, I don't think it such a big problem. I have played a few matches through my carrer where I have been disturbed becuase of the opponent really slowing the tempo down. I only asked him if he could play a little faster and the problem was solved.

Matt Hetherington · Sep 9, 2015

The rule is really vague, like ; play must be continuous or something like that. It's really vague.

NextLevel · Sep 9, 2015

Matt Hetherington said:
The rule is really vague, like ; play must be continuous or something like that. It's really vague.

Yeah. And by the looks of things, we have built a culture of table tennis players who like this kind of stuff.

Shuki · Sep 9, 2015

interesting subject. i think i like how the rule is, allowing the returner to control the pace. if the returner wasn't controlling the pace, how would the server know they were ready. there would be issues with quick serving to try and serve before the returner got ready. plus why give the server even MORE advantage than they already have?

Tinykin · Sep 9, 2015

English Open 1998. I was there during the women's final. The Chinese player was taking inordinately long to serve. She received a warning then a yellow, then a yellow/red which meant losing a point. She still did not really speed up. She was very lucky as I think the ump gave her a little leeway close to the match's end as another yellow/red would have given the match to her opponent.

Baal · Sep 9, 2015

Shuki said:
Plus why give the server even MORE advantage than they already have?

This is my position. I don't like the hidden serve rules since I think it solved a non-existent problem. But even with that, the server has the entire initiative. This is always true in racket sports. The returner should at least have the right to be ready for whatever happens. I am sure there are rare times this has been abused but I think this is the first time I have ever heard a complaint, or maybe the second, There was not too long ago a thread about Ma Long always going through the same slow routine when he serves.

Can we leave the sport alone for awhile and just play?

NextLevel · Sep 9, 2015

Baal said:
This is my position. I don't like the hidden serve rules since I think it solved a non-existent problem. But even with that, the server has the entire initiative. This is always true in racket sports. The returner should at least have the right to be ready for whatever happens. I am sure there are rare times this has been abused but I think this is the first time I have ever heard a complaint, or maybe the second, There was not too long ago a thread about Ma Long always going through the same slow routine when he serves.

Can we leave the sport alone for awhile and just play?

Yeah, you probably don't watch enough ITTF matches then. Petr Korbel, normally a fellow of sound mind and judgment, was actually pretty pissed at Ma Long at the Austrian Open a few years back. Of course, at the tour level, people can get yellow cards for this kind of stuff.

I've played a couple of players including coaches who abused this rule to the point it almost drove me nuts. And I guess over time, some people might one day consider me an offender as well. But I am just pointing out that it is something that complaining about has no real support from the rule book. Well, at least, the rule book has the expedite rule!

Suga D · Sep 9, 2015

Sorry for offtopic, but this reminds me a little of what happened just lately...
There is this one guy at our club. When his opponent is leading he sometimes starts serving without waiting for the receiver to be ready (which made him actually look a little bit like a sore loser). Many other players just ignored that and kept playing, but last time one of my teammates just told him, if he would mind waiting until one's ready, and that this kind of behaviour isn't very sportsmanlike.
Dude just said ok, but anyone could see that he was really getting angry inside cause he got 'caught', but he still didn't say anything.
Lost the match, broke his racket in half and left without saying anything....

Edit: And came back yesterday as if nothing has happened.

Another reason why i love this sport so much. Some guys are really freaky.

But back to topic, i think Baal is quite right, here. The server's got already so many options, so give the receiver at least a chance to keep up. I've also seen it happen vice versa and the receiver had to wait for the server who kept wiping sweat off his face or neck just to catch their breath or irritate the receiver...

UpSideDownCarl · Sep 9, 2015

Well, Suga D seems to have been thinking along similar lines as me.

For me, I have come across the quick serve guys all too often. Guys who serve before you are even at the table.

But I have seen the other also. Where someone purposely takes so much time over and over to mess with the opponent's head. Some happy medium between rushing and stalling is obviously most sportsmanlike.

I know that I play at two different clubs where there is just too much going on so it is a frequent occurrence that someone not in the match will walk in the way or do something distracting right as the server is tossing. When this happens I will usually walk away from the table with my hand up and apologize to the server while pointing out what I was reacting to. If someone does quick serve the ball and I can realize it before I receive it, I will catch the ball and say something polite to point it out. The receiver should be in a ready stance before the service. But the receiver should get into a ready stance in a timely manner.

So either scenario--too fast or too much stalling--can be annoying.

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Suga D · Sep 10, 2015

UpSideDownCarl said:
The receiver should be in a ready stance before the service. But the receiver should get into a ready stance in a timely manner.

So either scenario--too fast or too much stalling--can be annoying.

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Totally agreed.

Baal · Sep 10, 2015

NextLevel said:
Yeah, you probably don't watch enough ITTF matches then. Petr Korbel, normally a fellow of sound mind and judgment, was actually pretty pissed at Ma Long at the Austrian Open a few years back. Of course, at the tour level, people can get yellow cards for this kind of stuff.

I've played a couple of players including coaches who abused this rule to the point it almost drove me nuts. And I guess over time, some people might one day consider me an offender as well. But I am just pointing out that it is something that complaining about has no real support from the rule book. Well, at least, the rule book has the expedite rule!

Bear in mind though, in the Korbel example, I believe it was the routine Ma Long goes through on his own serve. Correct me if I am wrong about that.

Anders · Sep 10, 2015

Matt Hetherington said:
The rule is really vague, like ; play must be continuous or something like that. It's really vague.

Not only is it vadue, it's also quite simple.. I practise as an umpire from time to time myself, and if I can try and explain:

If you stall the play on purpose, or you do things without a reason just so the play won't get going as soon as it should, then you'll get a warning. If you do it again - yellow card, and so on. No problem really

NextLevel · Sep 10, 2015

Baal said:
Bear in mind though, in the Korbel example, I believe it was the routine Ma Long goes through on his own serve. Correct me if I am wrong about that.

Ma Long goes through the routine both when he is serving and when his receiving.

Why Do We Let the Returner Control the Pace?

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