My practice of short underspin serves!

JeffM · Jun 29, 2016

Der_Echte once said to me, learning the timing and touch and bat angles for a short underspin serve is a must, I have decided to work on it and to perfect it as much as I can (without a proper coach).

Below is a video of my practice of the serve on Day 2. I am attempting to practice a bucket of serves every day (if possible). Although after 2 days, I can already feel that the muscles on the back of my shoulder are a bit sore/tight.

Any feedback and advice is greatly appreciated. As you can see, my success rate of getting the ball over the net is still suboptimal, any advice of how to minimise the errors or make it easier will be very helpful.

Cheers

JeffM

Jaffar Lone · Jun 29, 2016

Hi Jeff, i think you need to do the ball toss a bit closer to the table, for some of these serves you step a bit too further back from the table, also the first bounce on your side when you are serving, should be closer to the net. That would make the underspin serve that much more effective. Also, you are trying short underspin serve but i notice that your service is coming out side-underspin.. try to keep the racket head straight without moving it sideways when you are doing your service. Unless you're attempting the side-underspin on purpose that is

Other than that you're doing ok, nice serves actually

JeffM · Jun 29, 2016

Jaffar Lone said:
Hi Jeff, i think you need to do the ball toss a bit closer to the table, for some of these serves you step a bit too further back from the table, also the first bounce on your side when you are serving, should be closer to the net. That would make the underspin serve that much more effective. Also, you are trying short underspin serve but i notice that your service is coming out side-underspin.. try to keep the racket head straight without moving it sideways when you are doing your service. Unless you're attempting the side-underspin on purpose that is

Other than that you're doing ok, nice serves actually

Thanks Jaffar! I tossed it a bit back from the table because I was afraid of hitting the racket onto the table. I will try to toss the ball closer to the table.

Archosaurus · Jun 29, 2016

I suggest contacting the ball at a lower height (Lower your body as well) and trying to drag past it for starters. Don't care about deception or anything like that if you're just learning it.

More importantly, how long did you go without a short backspin serve?

JeffM · Jun 29, 2016

Archosaurus said:
I suggest contacting the ball at a lower height (Lower your body as well) and trying to drag past it for starters. Don't care about deception or anything like that if you're just learning it.

More importantly, how long did you go without a short backspin serve?

Thanks Archosaurus, will my hand / racket hit the table?
I am not really attempting deception except to stop the racket as I fear hitting the table and hurting myself.

I have tried short backspin serve before, but I have never been confident enough to do it in a game, as you can see the % of success is still not high enough for me. I do have backspin serves that are half long or might just bounce twice but with less spin.

Jaffar Lone · Jun 29, 2016

A very valid point

I missed out on the bending the knee part. Body has to be lower when serving, in this video its a big high for any kind of service, be it underspin or sidespin.

Archosaurus said:
I suggest contacting the ball at a lower height (Lower your body as well) and trying to drag past it for starters. Don't care about deception or anything like that if you're just learning it.

More importantly, how long did you go without a short backspin serve?

ttmonster · Jun 29, 2016

Great serves Jeff !!!

I would suggest the following based on my experience , take it or leave it based on what works for you , since I am not a coach by any standards ...

1. I would say to start with, don't stand up with the ball toss , stay low with your knee flexed as you started and as you want to finish with your contact.
I know some pros do it with high toss serves, but their skill levels are entirely different than us, for us to change the height of the arm so much introduces another variability to the motion . I find it especially difficult to do unless I am tossing the ball high where I have enough time to get back to my optimal serving height ...

2. I would say spread your legs a little bit more ? I will let you figure that one out ideally it should be just a little bit more than shoulder height , depending on leg strength people spread it out , but it does reduce mobility , especially the the half step forward footwork for slower balls, so I will suggest you figure that one out yourself.

3. Then the other one is to use a little more waist. It helps in introducing a "secret" spin on the ball because most receivers focus on the arm and the spin due to the weight transfer is more difficult to calibrate , it also helps you to get back to neutral position after serving that much more quickly.

NextLevel · Jun 29, 2016

The hand motion is not quite right - the forward swing is decent but the backswing is wrong and starts too early. Google "Backspin Serve Brett Clarke" and "Advanced Serve Mechanics Brett Clarke" to understand what your hand should be doino. I will post the videos here if I get a chance to do so from a PC.

NextLevel · Jun 29, 2016

I think all the videos have something for you.

Archosaurus · Jun 29, 2016

Jeff, let's put it like this: I haven't been playing too long, but I've probably done way more serves than most people at my level. Hours of serve practice per day sometimes.

I've NEVER hit the bat on the table when serving anything except tomahawk, more often it's hit my left leg and turned into a helicopter blade during a rally.

Now, I know that penhold serves feel less confident because of the grip (Probably it'll go away with coaching/practice) so I wouldn't worry it about too much. If you're so concerned, shadow the movement slowly about 1000 times and you'll have convinced yourself it's not gonna hit. I had to do that with tomahawk.

iammaru · Jun 29, 2016

you have pretty good touch. Just need more consistency.
I think most of the times you couldn't get the ball over the net, it's because you contact the ball a little too LOW. The ideal height for contact is a little above the net height, the first bounce will be a little lower (just over the net) and then the second bounce will be even lower, that's how you get a good low underspin serve.
And I agree with ttmonster's #1.

Tembel · Jun 29, 2016

I agree with the rest, I doesn't look too shabby, but inconsistent. My advice to you is to try to get the feel of placement and hight first without focusing too much on getting lots of spin on the ball. Once you get a good feel for height and ball placement and good consistency on serves with a low amount of backspin, then you can start to experiment with getting more spin on the ball.

JeffM · Jun 30, 2016

Archosaurus said:
Jeff, let's put it like this: I haven't been playing too long, but I've probably done way more serves than most people at my level. Hours of serve practice per day sometimes.

I've NEVER hit the bat on the table when serving anything except tomahawk, more often it's hit my left leg and turned into a helicopter blade during a rally.

Now, I know that penhold serves feel less confident because of the grip (Probably it'll go away with coaching/practice) so I wouldn't worry it about too much. If you're so concerned, shadow the movement slowly about 1000 times and you'll have convinced yourself it's not gonna hit. I had to do that with tomahawk.

Hey Archosaurus, I find that when I contact the ball lower, I am not able to generate as much spin as before, and my consistency isn't really improving.. I don't know if whether the difference between penhold and shake hand makes a difference, but with penhold, to get the bat flat + swing it, its not as flexible as shakehand, because if you hold the bat with your wrist and arm completely straight (which is the most natural position to swing the bat to generate max spin), the bat is already at an angle with the head going downward due to the grip. So to generate pure backspin (for this purpose of the serve), I will need to tilt my wrist upward, which automatically tightens my wrist hence decrease the free swing thus less spin.

iammaru said:
you have pretty good touch. Just need more consistency.
I think most of the times you couldn't get the ball over the net, it's because you contact the ball a little too LOW. The ideal height for contact is a little above the net height, the first bounce will be a little lower (just over the net) and then the second bounce will be even lower, that's how you get a good low underspin serve.
And I agree with ttmonster's #1.

Thanks immaru, I think I agree with you, while others say I need to contact the ball lower, when I contact the ball lower, with my racket going flat, my success rate of ball not going directly into the net or bouncing into the net decreases.

Tembel said:
I agree with the rest, I doesn't look too shabby, but inconsistent. My advice to you is to try to get the feel of placement and hight first without focusing too much on getting lots of spin on the ball. Once you get a good feel for height and ball placement and good consistency on serves with a low amount of backspin, then you can start to experiment with getting more spin on the ball.

Thanks Tembel, yeah my main problem is the feel of placement, its difficult for me because with other serves, I can hit at a certain angle and the ball is going there, but with this serve, I am required to purely brush the ball with no 'hitting' component, and because of my inconsistency.. getting the feel of the brush is quite hard. Also, I think the amount of spin on the ball also affects how much the ball will dip, so if I put less spin, the ball will travel higher, which can affect my control of placement of first bounce. Hence the first bounce will again be different if I try to generate more spin by more finer brushing.

Summary: My main problem is being able to consistently put the first bounce at the right spot and at the right height (which I assume the height part has to do with the height where I contact the ball)
I feel quite helpless, with practicing a bucket of serves each day (70+ serves/day), and still not getting any improvement on consistency and feel of where the first bounce will be. Wonder if there are any penholders share the same problem and how they overcome this.

Archosaurus · Jun 30, 2016

Jeff, I think @songdavid98 could have something for you.

songdavid98 · Jun 30, 2016

Archosaurus said:
Jeff, I think @songdavid98 could have something for you.

Hello, thanks for the invite Archo.

I'm a fellow penholder and serves are my forte.

As of right now, you are putting a lot of spin on your serves. That's okay.

HOWEVER, there are a things that you aren't noticing about yourself.

1) Your swing is really big. Since you are only at the learning stage at the moment, keep it smaller. It will be easier to learn and it will be easier create more consistent swings.

You see, your big swing is the reason why it is difficult for you to control your placement and height. Try using less forearm and more wrist. Focus on placement and height.

2) as for pure underspin:
It's possible for penhold, it's just that it's not really ideal. Penhold is great for sidespin serves, so just serve it with a little sidespin.
If you REALLY REALLY want to do it, it easier to think of it as a tomahawk serve with no sidespin.
I'm just going to tell you right now, pure backspin is overrated. Service height is very underrated.

3) A tossing the ball higher makes it hard to control. Don't be a bigshot when you're only still learning.

A few things to learn:
1) You aren't really using your wrist enough. Learn to use it. You're a penholder for crying out loud.
2) Learn to control the trajectory of your ball. Right now, I see it going it all sorts of directions. Sometimes, I see it bouncing up or dropping down from your paddle. Ideally, you want your serve to go forward and make it's first bounce halfway between the edge of the table and the net. Spin the ball forward, not upward or downward or whatever direction.

I completely understand your comment about spinning component and hitting component. Right now your spinning component is screwing up your ball trajectory because your spinning component is not consistent. Sometimes you are spinning the ball forward and sometimes you aren't. Control that. Take a smaller swing and use your wrist. Your wrist is supposed to control the spinning component.

If you are going to continue to toss the ball higher than your head, you are going to have to learn how to "carry" the ball down. It will help you control your serve. By carrying, I mean, as the ball goes down, your paddle goes down with it. It will help you with controlling the ball speed, angle(the angle the ball bounces off your paddle), and the height. (Speed, angle, and height combined give you placement.)

JeffM · Jun 30, 2016

songdavid98 said:
Hello, thanks for the invite Archo.

I'm a fellow penholder and serves are my forte.

As of right now, you are putting a lot of spin on your serves. That's okay.

HOWEVER, there are a things that you aren't noticing about yourself.

1) Your swing is really big. Since you are only at the learning stage at the moment, keep it smaller. It will be easier to learn and it will be easier create more consistent swings.

You see, your big swing is the reason why it is difficult for you to control your placement and height. Try using less forearm and more wrist. Focus on placement and height.

2) as for pure underspin:
It's possible for penhold, it's just that it's not really ideal. Penhold is great for sidespin serves, so just serve it with a little sidespin.
If you REALLY REALLY want to do it, it easier to think of it as a tomahawk serve with no sidespin.
I'm just going to tell you right now, pure backspin is overrated. Service height is very underrated.

3) A tossing the ball higher makes it hard to control. Don't be a bigshot when you're only still learning.

A few things to learn:
1) You aren't really using your wrist enough. Learn to use it. You're a penholder for crying out loud.
2) Learn to control the trajectory of your ball. Right now, I see it going it all sorts of directions. Sometimes, I see it bouncing up or dropping down from your paddle. Ideally, you want your serve to go forward and make it's first bounce halfway between the edge of the table and the net. Spin the ball forward, not upward or downward or whatever direction.

I completely understand your comment about spinning component and hitting component. Right now your spinning component is screwing up your ball trajectory because your spinning component is not consistent. Sometimes you are spinning the ball forward and sometimes you aren't. Control that. Take a smaller swing and use your wrist. Your wrist is supposed to control the spinning component.

If you are going to continue to toss the ball higher than your head, you are going to have to learn how to "carry" the ball down. It will help you control your serve. By carrying, I mean, as the ball goes down, your paddle goes down with it. It will help you with controlling the ball speed, angle(the angle the ball bounces off your paddle), and the height. (Speed, angle, and height combined give you placement.)

Thanks alot, songdavid98!
I agree with you that I need to use my wrist more, right now I think I'm not using it enough, and probably not having alot of control over it as well.
Yes, I want to learn to control the trajectory of the ball. I am guessing that part will only come with time of practice and experience?
What is your opinion of how high the contact with the ball should be?

Is it possible to watch you do a serve, just as a learning model that I can try to copy in doing the serve?
Thanks again.

songdavid98 · Jun 30, 2016

If you want to control the trajectory of the ball, start out one step at a time.
1) use less and focus less on spin and don't toss the ball too high ***The high ball toss is probably the biggest issue.
2) use a smaller swing and more wrist.

3) add more spin
all while keeping the ball short

As for the height of contact, it should be around the net height, but not below it.

As for practice, 70+ serves a day is not a lot. Maybe several hundred. You have to be patient. Give special attention to each serve you do. Don't mindlessly serve.

I started out with a lower toss (about as high as your head/eyes) and way more wrist. It will help you later on. A fast moving ball is hard to control, and this includes your ball toss.

Maybe I'll make a youtube video for you later today. Everybody serves differently, so copying may or may not be a good idea (I'm left handed by the way). Also, I serve with a big swing and a higher toss at this point, but I'll see what I can do.

UPDATE: I was busy today. So no video today.

songdavid98 · Jul 1, 2016

I don't have time to make a full length video tutorial. It takes more planning and editin than I thought. So for now, I'll just give you an example here.

This was a high toss serve.

My service swing is a lot smaller and quicker than yours. Small and quick movements also make it harder to read if you decide to put side spin on it.

I noticed you said that getting pure underspin strains our wrist. You say that you have to force your wrist upwards to get pure underspin. However, that is only true if your forearm is level with the ground. The more you drop your elbow and point your forearm upwards, the easier it is to get the angle needed to get pure underspin. Obviously, angling your forearm upwards will raise your contact point, so remember to get lower.

My practice of short underspin serves!

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